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Fizzer94
L.O.T.I.S.
Public Disorder.
923
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Posted - 2013.11.24 11:55:00 -
[91] - Quote
Sleepy Shadow wrote:Fizzer94 wrote:Nobody owns any BPOs anyway. We are all just leasing them from CCP until CCP takes them back (which they can do whenever they want, with or without warning). The magic of DRM, folks. You can't buy digital goods, only lease them, usually forever (but there are exceptions).
Eventually, Tranquillity will shut down and what then? Will you expect CCP to refund all the money you spent on Dust/EVE? It makes no difference if itGÇÖs let or owned. BPOGÇÖs were let indefinitely, so if they are removed the contract is breached and CCP is liable to compensate. CCP can do whatever they want with the BPOGÇÖs, or any item in game, but it does not remove their liability to those who paid for them. And discontinuing the development and support of a game is vastly different from just removing items from it.
I know its not fair. I personally don't like DRM, but that's the way things work right now. Did you know that when you get a game on PSN or Steam, the same rules apply? This is why I never feel comfortable getting downloaded games unless they are cheap/free.
[+ªa¦Ç+¦++-ö-Å94]
The Plasma Cannon is not underpowered.
REMOVE ALL BPOs
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Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
5271
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Posted - 2013.11.24 13:15:00 -
[92] - Quote
Sleepy Shadow wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:NomaDz 2K wrote:Mortedeamor wrote:are you sure there isnt some precedence for this ?
it looks like when you buy aur you are not in fact buying aur buy exchanging real time money for a virtual currency ...then you spend that virtual currency for virtual items in game to technically if ccp takes bpo's they are stealing from us..we exchanged our currency for aur which is just an ingame virtual currency ..then we purchased these bpos.
we spent real money on those bpos doesnt matter if they were purchased in psn store or dust in game store ^THIS Again, you never purchased the BPOs with cash directly. You purchased the aurum first in order to get the BPOs. Didn't I cover this quite extensively?
That whole voucher comparison still assumes/depends on whether the courts will see aurum as either a currency conversion or simply an a product. You'll be surprised about how technicalities play a role in the courts. And yes, the court of law can often times make very little sense. Take the George Zimmerman case and compare that to another somewhat similar case of a black woman firing a warning shot against her abusing husband who was about to kill her. The only difference is that no one died in the second case but the woman got sentenced to twenty years just because she discharged the weapon. How's that for technicality?
Keep in mind that both cases happened in the same state (Florida) in about the same year.
CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
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Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
5271
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Posted - 2013.11.24 13:26:00 -
[93] - Quote
Fizzer94 wrote:Sleepy Shadow wrote:Fizzer94 wrote:Nobody owns any BPOs anyway. We are all just leasing them from CCP until CCP takes them back (which they can do whenever they want, with or without warning). The magic of DRM, folks. You can't buy digital goods, only lease them, usually forever (but there are exceptions).
Eventually, Tranquillity will shut down and what then? Will you expect CCP to refund all the money you spent on Dust/EVE? It makes no difference if itGÇÖs let or owned. BPOGÇÖs were let indefinitely, so if they are removed the contract is breached and CCP is liable to compensate. CCP can do whatever they want with the BPOGÇÖs, or any item in game, but it does not remove their liability to those who paid for them. And discontinuing the development and support of a game is vastly different from just removing items from it. I know its not fair. I personally don't like DRM, but that's the way things work right now. Did you know that when you get a game on PSN or Steam, the same rules apply? This is why I never feel comfortable getting downloaded games unless they are cheap/free.
Did you know that in the USA whenever you purchase a movie or a video game you don't technically own them? You just simply bought the license to use them? That's why I often find it as a misnomer whenever I see a commercial telling me to own a copy today.
CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
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Sleepy Shadow
L.O.T.I.S.
Public Disorder.
84
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Posted - 2013.11.24 14:08:00 -
[94] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:Sleepy Shadow wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:NomaDz 2K wrote:Mortedeamor wrote:are you sure there isnt some precedence for this ?
it looks like when you buy aur you are not in fact buying aur buy exchanging real time money for a virtual currency ...then you spend that virtual currency for virtual items in game to technically if ccp takes bpo's they are stealing from us..we exchanged our currency for aur which is just an ingame virtual currency ..then we purchased these bpos.
we spent real money on those bpos doesnt matter if they were purchased in psn store or dust in game store ^THIS Again, you never purchased the BPOs with cash directly. You purchased the aurum first in order to get the BPOs. Didn't I cover this quite extensively? That whole voucher comparison still assumes/depends on whether the courts will see aurum as either a currency conversion or simply an a product. You'll be surprised about how technicalities play a role in the courts. And yes, the court of law can often times make very little sense. Take the George Zimmerman case and compare that to another somewhat similar case of a black woman firing a warning shot against her abusing husband who was about to kill her. The only difference is that no one died in the second case but the woman got sentenced to twenty years just because she discharged the weapon. How's that for technicality? Keep in mind that both cases happened in the same state (Florida) in about the same year.
Zimmermann is in the States while CCP operates in Europe and all disputes will be handled under UK law. I wouldnGÇÖt trust any court proceeding to be the same in the states. IGÇÖve read plenty of crazy lawsuits and even our coffee cups here have those silly warnings on them.
Like I said before, CCP is allowed to offer a blanket compensation to make matters easy. This does not, nor has CCP stated so, mean that all other compensations are out the window. It would be too time consuming to ask everyone to send them mail individually and tell them what they want as compensation. When they do it like this, most will be happy with AUR and those that are not can contact CCP separately.
If CCP thinks, or can prove, that they are not liable to refund anything other than AUR then I would like to see them first to state that and second show what law they base it on.
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Duran Lex
Fraternity of St. Venefice
Amarr Empire
390
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Posted - 2013.11.24 15:43:00 -
[95] - Quote
Sleepy Shadow wrote:Fizzer94 wrote:Nobody owns any BPOs anyway. We are all just leasing them from CCP until CCP takes them back (which they can do whenever they want, with or without warning). The magic of DRM, folks. You can't buy digital goods, only lease them, usually forever (but there are exceptions).
Eventually, Tranquillity will shut down and what then? Will you expect CCP to refund all the money you spent on Dust/EVE? It makes no difference if itGÇÖs let or owned. BPOGÇÖs were let indefinitely, so if they are removed the contract is breached and CCP is liable to compensate. CCP can do whatever they want with the BPOGÇÖs, or any item in game, but it does not remove their liability to those who paid for them. And discontinuing the development and support of a game is vastly different from just removing items from it.
The problem with your with your logic : CCP hasn't breached the contract.
Yes if they indeed breach the contract, legal action being taken is liable.
But they did not breach it.
Also just to let you know, you views on refunds are flawed in general. Refunds are only a guarantee if the provider of respective services gives you that guarantee. Refunds aren't some magical law that applies to any and all products.
And as stated in the EULA, they will not provide refunds on termination of any of their products or services. Meaning, you aren't entitled to a refund, ever. Even if you spent 5000$ on Dust 514 the day before they decide to scrap the whole game and stop services, you are screwed, for you accepted the terms of their contract. |
Sleepy Shadow
L.O.T.I.S.
Public Disorder.
84
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Posted - 2013.11.24 16:15:00 -
[96] - Quote
Duran Lex wrote:Sleepy Shadow wrote:Fizzer94 wrote:Nobody owns any BPOs anyway. We are all just leasing them from CCP until CCP takes them back (which they can do whenever they want, with or without warning). The magic of DRM, folks. You can't buy digital goods, only lease them, usually forever (but there are exceptions).
Eventually, Tranquillity will shut down and what then? Will you expect CCP to refund all the money you spent on Dust/EVE? It makes no difference if itGÇÖs let or owned. BPOGÇÖs were let indefinitely, so if they are removed the contract is breached and CCP is liable to compensate. CCP can do whatever they want with the BPOGÇÖs, or any item in game, but it does not remove their liability to those who paid for them. And discontinuing the development and support of a game is vastly different from just removing items from it. The problem with your with your logic : CCP hasn't breached the contract. Yes if they indeed breach the contract, legal action being taken is liable. But they did not breach it. Also just to let you know, you views on refunds are flawed in general. Refunds are only a guarantee if the provider of respective services gives you that guarantee. Refunds aren't some magical law that applies to any and all products.
No, they are not. You should do a bit more reading if you think so, European Consumer Centre is a good start. EULA cannot and will never supersede law.
CCP has breached the contract when they remove items that were sold as permanent. I bought an item in good faith and under the assumption that the item had certain effects and was permanent. When CCP changes this, which they are fully allowed to do, they are liable to compensate.
I suggest you start reading my posts from this one.
Quote:And as stated in the EULA, they will not provide refunds on termination of any of their products or services. Meaning, you aren't entitled to a refund, ever. Even if you spent 5000$ on Dust 514 the day before they decide to scrap the whole game and stop services, you are screwed, for you accepted the terms of their contract.
And as I stated, discontinuing the development and support of a game is vastly different from just removing items from it. I have never said anyone is entitled to a compensation if CCP decides to stop developing and supporting this game.
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...
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Duran Lex
Fraternity of St. Venefice
Amarr Empire
390
|
Posted - 2013.11.24 16:19:00 -
[97] - Quote
Sleepy Shadow wrote:Duran Lex wrote:Sleepy Shadow wrote:Fizzer94 wrote:Nobody owns any BPOs anyway. We are all just leasing them from CCP until CCP takes them back (which they can do whenever they want, with or without warning). The magic of DRM, folks. You can't buy digital goods, only lease them, usually forever (but there are exceptions).
Eventually, Tranquillity will shut down and what then? Will you expect CCP to refund all the money you spent on Dust/EVE? It makes no difference if itGÇÖs let or owned. BPOGÇÖs were let indefinitely, so if they are removed the contract is breached and CCP is liable to compensate. CCP can do whatever they want with the BPOGÇÖs, or any item in game, but it does not remove their liability to those who paid for them. And discontinuing the development and support of a game is vastly different from just removing items from it. The problem with your with your logic : CCP hasn't breached the contract. Yes if they indeed breach the contract, legal action being taken is liable. But they did not breach it. Also just to let you know, you views on refunds are flawed in general. Refunds are only a guarantee if the provider of respective services gives you that guarantee. Refunds aren't some magical law that applies to any and all products. No, they are not. You should do a bit more reading if you think so, European Consumer Centre is a good start. EULA cannot and will never supersede law. CCP has breached the contract when they remove items that were sold as permanent. I bought an item in good faith and under the assumption that the item had certain effects and was permanent. When CCP changes this, which they are fully allowed to do, they are liable to compensate. I suggest you start reading my posts from this one.Quote:And as stated in the EULA, they will not provide refunds on termination of any of their products or services. Meaning, you aren't entitled to a refund, ever. Even if you spent 5000$ on Dust 514 the day before they decide to scrap the whole game and stop services, you are screwed, for you accepted the terms of their contract. And as I stated, discontinuing the development and support of a game is vastly different from just removing items from it. I have never said anyone is entitled to a compensation if CCP decides to stop developing and supporting this game.
You also bought those items under the pretense that "these items are subject to change at CCP's discretion".
The product you purchased has changed, it no longer exists. Nothing was breached. You aren't liable to receive anything. CCP is taking the correct approach and refunding you for the amount that you payed for it, which was 4800 AUR per respective module.
Edit - If CCP felt like it, they could remove every single module in the game, both AUR and ISK variants, and let you run around with empty suits. It seems to me your only gripe is that you aren't able to purchase and use certain "permanent" items, and trying to associate point of law with comparisons that have no contextual basis.
They have every right to do what they did. If you feel otherwise, take legal action and I'll wish you the best of luck. |
Jack Kittinger
DUST University
Ivy League
58
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Posted - 2013.11.24 17:14:00 -
[98] - Quote
Sleepy Shadow wrote:
Some players might be happy with AUR refund, it is not illegal to offer store credit as compensation if customer is happy to use the credit on other items.
Like I said in the other topic, I am willing to let this slide...But if they even consider taking more BPOGÇÖs from me, I will exercise my right as a consumer and demand PSN credit.
Maken Tosch makes much more sense than users like Yelsa but I think he is playing devil's advocate and will invariably end up with egg on his face because he is using straightforward logic and solid arguments to justify the actions of CCP who, as they just showed with the removal of these modules use, care not for logic or making sense.
What am I trying to say? Maken thanks for making this kinda thread with true discussion even if at the end of the day CCP does as CCP wishes...
On the other hand, I second Sleepy's thoughts because today they take four, in three months they take one more, in one year after you and I are gone (The Walking Dead Season 2, MGS V, Real Life) they finally launch item trading and because they already took those BPO's some time ago they decide it's ok to turn your BPO's into consumables but you got 9999, so it's ok right? it's only common sense to say you signed the eula and shrug it off, right? |
Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
5272
|
Posted - 2013.11.24 17:20:00 -
[99] - Quote
Jack Kittinger wrote:Sleepy Shadow wrote:
Some players might be happy with AUR refund, it is not illegal to offer store credit as compensation if customer is happy to use the credit on other items.
Like I said in the other topic, I am willing to let this slide...But if they even consider taking more BPOGÇÖs from me, I will exercise my right as a consumer and demand PSN credit.
Maken Tosch makes much more sense than users like Yelsa but I think he is playing devil's advocate and will invariably end up with egg on his face because he is using straightforward logic and solid arguments to justify the actions of CCP who, as they just showed with the removal of these modules use, care not for logic or making sense. What am I trying to say? Maken thanks for making this kinda thread with true discussion even if at the end of the day CCP does as CCP wishes... On the other hand, I second Sleepy's thoughts because today they take four, in three months they take one more, in one year after you and I are gone (The Walking Dead Season 2, MGS V, Real Life) they finally launch item trading and because they already took those BPO's some time ago they decide it's ok to turn your BPO's into consumables but you got 9999, so it's ok right? it's only common sense to say you signed the eula and shrug it off, right?
Might as well. We did technically sign the contract although most of us who did didn't bother reading it.
CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
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Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
5272
|
Posted - 2013.11.24 17:23:00 -
[100] - Quote
I wonder how much time it will take for me to burn through 9,999 suits. XD
CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
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Jack Kittinger
DUST University
Ivy League
58
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Posted - 2013.11.24 17:27:00 -
[101] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:I wonder how much time it will take for me to burn through 9,999 suits. XD
check KD stats, then extrapolate cause I'm sure you're well under 4k deaths |
Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
5273
|
Posted - 2013.11.24 17:29:00 -
[102] - Quote
Just did the math. It will take me 22 hours to burn through 9,999 suits assuming I die 150 times per skirmish match and each match lasted 20 minutes.
CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
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Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
5273
|
Posted - 2013.11.24 17:31:00 -
[103] - Quote
222 hours of I only die 15 times a match.
CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
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Roger Cordill
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
61
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Posted - 2013.11.27 05:24:00 -
[104] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:UPDATED As of 23 Nov 2013 @ 01:56 Eve Time Behold, a sensible discussion on the topic truly begins here: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1521167#post1521167UPDATED As of 21 Nov 2013 @ 19:16 Eve Time I just remembered. I still have the BPO of the Yellow Stamina Mod known as the Cardiac Stimulant. It use to have an ISK equivalent back then, but then that ISK variant got removed because it later became obsolete due to the Green Stamina Mod you all know as the Cardiac Regulator. But I still have the BPO. On top of that, it still has the same exact stats as before and I can still fit it if I want. Interesting how the plot thickens.
Message from Godin: They said that they were going to remove those and give us a refund on those as well. I guess they forgot. |
NextDark Knight
Hellstorm Inc
League of Infamy
103
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Posted - 2013.12.12 06:45:00 -
[105] - Quote
Jason Pearson wrote:[quote=Maken Tosch]
- Militia Shield Resistance Amplifier
Okay, I use this on a Gunnlogi BPO fit (Costs me for the Turrets and the Hull, it's dumb.) but again it's quite possible they're removing them all.
Can I have your Gunnlogi BPO? |
NomaDz 2K
DUTY FR33
90
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Posted - 2013.12.13 15:57:00 -
[106] - Quote
NextDark Knight wrote:Jason Pearson wrote:[quote=Maken Tosch]
- Militia Shield Resistance Amplifier
Okay, I use this on a Gunnlogi BPO fit (Costs me for the Turrets and the Hull, it's dumb.) but again it's quite possible they're removing them all.
Can I have your Gunnlogi BPO?
How about CCP can we have the items exchanged for something of equal value as in an in game BPO which still hasn't been removed yet but maybe SooN TM, like you did with the BPOs removed with the 1.7 without even having the decentcy of consulting us? |
Zion Shad
Mannar Focused Warfare
Gallente Federation
2021
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Posted - 2013.12.13 16:21:00 -
[107] - Quote
What is the total list of Vehicle BPOs taken away that players got from packs and did they receive AUR for them? That's that question Id be looking at
Co-Owner of Multiplexgaming.com
Co-Host of PODSIDE & MPXPrimetime
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NomaDz 2K
DUTY FR33
90
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Posted - 2013.12.13 16:52:00 -
[108] - Quote
Zion Shad wrote:What is the total list of Vehicle BPOs taken away that players got from packs and did they receive AUR for them? That's that question Id be looking at
They did get AUR back which the MAJORITY of the people did not Request, U C CCP FAILED to Reach an Agreement with those , like myself which purchase these BPOs with AUR using Real CA$H. I personally wanted my BPOs EXCHANGED for another BPO which is still in game. CCP could do this yet they neglect our satisfaction on their product.
DON'T SPEND CA$H ON DUST 514
CCP WILL ONLY GIVE YOU AUR AFTER THEY REMOVE YOUR BPOs WHICH U SPENT REAL MONGé¼Y ON!
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Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
5883
|
Posted - 2013.12.13 18:47:00 -
[109] - Quote
NomaDz 2K wrote:Zion Shad wrote:What is the total list of Vehicle BPOs taken away that players got from packs and did they receive AUR for them? That's that question Id be looking at They did get AUR back which the MAJORITY of the people did not Request, U C CCP FAILED to Reach an Agreement with those , like myself which purchase these BPOs with AUR using Real CA$H. I personally wanted my BPOs EXCHANGED for another BPO which is still in game. CCP could do this yet they neglect our satisfaction on their product.
@NomaDz
You bought the AUR first with cash via Sony's PSN Store. According to Sony's transaction history, you paid cash only for the AUR. Sony doesn't care what you do with the AUR after you buy them. You then used the AUR to purchase the BPOs. If the BPOs you bought get removed from your inventory then you get a refund of the AUR (which you paid money for).
Let's say I go to a store (let's call it Store A) that sells options A, B, and C.
Store A requires a certain currency in order to purchase these options. Let's say it's plastic play coins like the ones you see in a toy store used for playing around with. Store B sells those plastic play coins. You purchase a bundle of plastic play coins from Store B and then go to Store A to purchase option C because that is the only option that interests you at the moment. But before purchasing from Store A you are first made to agree to the EULA is has regarding the options it sells. You are not allowed to enter if you don't accept the EULA. In this case, you accepted the EULA. But later on, Store B says they are no longer selling option C and they are making a forced recall of the option you bought due to a bad design it has. Because you bought that option with only the plastic play coins, the store gives you back the coins at the same amount you paid them in. Effectively a refund so that you can use it for all other options they offer. You then go back to Store B to get a cash refund of the coins you bought, but Store B refuses because the coins you bought were never taken away from you and you accepted the EULA established by Store A.
The statement that I made about the BPOs is based on the EULAs and Terms of Services established by both Sony Online Entertainment and CCP Games. That is the evidence I have to support my statement. What evidence do you have to support yours?
@Zion Shad
None of the four specific vehicles BPOs that are being removed by CCP came from merc packs. They were only available via the in-game Dust market as individual items purchasable only with AUR. This was repeated countless times in this thread of mines which is why I repeated the question about it over and over again so that it is made clear to everyone.
OK, CCP. When are knives finally going to be improved?
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