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[CCP Please Read] - [Yelsha, You Too] - Regarding BPO Removal

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Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5212	Posted - 2013.11.21 18:21:00 - [1] - Quote After some time of reflecting on recent events here in the forums, I came to the following conclusion. If any of you disagree with me, please speak now or forever hold your pee. Source: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=116404&find=unread CCP Logibro wrote: Hey all, We just wanted to clarify statements made about the removal of BPOs. We are in the process of removing BPOs from the market. We have already removed them from the in game market, and we will eventually be removing them from packs available on the PSN Store. We are not removing any existing BPOs from any player inventories and there are no plans to do so. BPOs are currently not functioning as intended so we are looking at the way they work in game. Again, we would like to reiterate that they will not be removed from any inventories. The highlighted portion seemed like a very absolute statement that our BPOs will not be removed. This is the statement that reassured us that our BPOs (which we bought and stored in our inventory) will be safe. But then the following statement from another Dev came up recently not too long after (a couple of weeks actually). Source: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=122274&find=unread CCP Frame wrote: In regards to BPOs: we are removing and refunding a few specific AUR militia Blueprints pertaining to vehicles because their respective modules will not exist anymore. We have no plans for the immediate future to touch other blueprints. [...] 4800 AUR Militia 180mm Reinforced Steel Plates Blueprint 4800 AUR Militia Shield Regenerator Blueprint 4800 AUR Militia Shield Resistance Amplifier 4800 AUR Militia Power Diagnostic System Blueprint As you can see here, there was a sudden change of plans. On the one hand, I do agree with many concerned players here that this is CCP going back on their word. But I do have another hand, you know. That other hand is telling me that AUR is being refunded at the current market price as you can see in the quotes above. If you are a recent player who bought these BPOs, you are given back AUR at the same amount you paid them for. If you're a closed-beta vet who owns these, you'll be earning profit. That other hand also has a very important question. Before I get to the question, here is a post made by Yelsha. Source: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=122476 Yelsha Jin-Mao wrote: I've sent a complaint to the Office of Fair Trading... [...] Every time you buy something, be it a mobile phone from a mate or a week in Cuba from a travel agent, you make a contract with the seller. Now, this question goes to ANYONE who purchased these specific BPOs. I'm not talking about BPOs in general. I'm talking about the ones being removed according to CCP Frame. Were these four specific BPOs only available via the in-game Dust market window and therefore required you to purchase AURUM first? Or were these four specific BPOs also available directly from the PSN market as part of a Mercenary Pack posted for sale on the PSN Store? Note: If you bought merc packs from within the game itself, that still counts as purchasing from the PSN Store because Sony is the one marketing the Merc Packs for CCP. If you were only able to purchase these BPOs using AUR acquired from the PSN Store then technically, using Yelsha's quote "Every time you buy something you make a contract with the seller" this means that you specifically agreed to pay X amount of real money for X amount of AUR. The seller could technically care less (or none at all) about what you intend to do with the AUR after that. If the same seller makes a sudden change to that AUR, you are entitled to a cash refund for that AUR. But no changes were made to the AUR. You then used that AUR to purchase these BPOs directly within the in-game market. CCP then decides to remove these particular BPOs from the game and subsequently your inventory. CCP finally gives you a refund of the amount you paid for if you purchased them during open beta or shortly after the game's release. If you purchased them during closed beta, then you stand to profit with extra AUR magically appearing without adding more cash to it because you bought these BPOs back when they were only about 50-100 AUR each. At this point, no contract was violated. You got your AUR back at the exact amount you spent them. Technically, when you spent the AUR to purchase the BPOs from within the game, the only agreement you made was that CCP would refund you the AUR you spent on the BPOs should the BPOs get removed. Now comes the next part... IF on the other hand you managed to purchase these particular BPOs "AS PART OF" a Merc Pack that was featuring it (example: a 'Toxin' SMG as part of a Merc Pack) by spending X amount of real world money to get that Merc Pack, then you have a case of sorts. But even then, you have to go through Sony first since they are the ones selling you the Merc Packs for cash. At the most, you'll probably only get a store credit from Sony. Remember, Sony is a business often times business would prefer to give you store credit rather than cash refunds because then they get to keep the money and you still get to pick another item at no* additional charge. So, again... Were these four particular BPOs only available from within the in-game market in Dust which required you to first purchase AUR from Sony? Yes or No? EDIT: * - Typo CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5216	Posted - 2013.11.21 18:30:00 - [2] - Quote Reserved... just in case. CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 1889	Posted - 2013.11.21 18:30:00 - [3] - Quote In-game market only. // Logistics / Scout / Dropship Pilot Trainee // https://twitter.com/reesnoturana
Thor McStrut Reckoners 416	Posted - 2013.11.21 18:33:00 - [4] - Quote Get out with your logic, reasoning, and sensible mumbo jumbo! THE SKY IS FALLING, THE SKY IS FALLING!!
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5216	Posted - 2013.11.21 18:34:00 - [5] - Quote Reav Hannari wrote: In-game market only. Which means.........................................................?? CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon 991	Posted - 2013.11.21 18:39:00 - [6] - Quote All these complaints about some militia BPO, they will refund you with aur, you have paid in aur, they'll refund aur, where is the problem? Militia bpo were not in pack and they are eliminating those things from the game. Would you be happy if they replace those militia BPOs with other militia BPOs? "Just another piece of duct tape" Some love for gunners
Foxbat 071 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 33	Posted - 2013.11.21 18:39:00 - [7] - Quote Let the people who are btching about the four vehicle BPOs keep them. Leave them with a BPO of a non-existing module that can't be fitted if they want them so bad. BLAP* ( X ) Call For Help ( O ) Respawn
Thor McStrut Reckoners 417	Posted - 2013.11.21 18:42:00 - [8] - Quote Foxbat 071 wrote: Let the people who are btching about the four vehicle BPOs keep them. Leave them with a BPO of a non-existing module that can't be fitted if they want them so bad. ^^This. Now this, this would be dirty*. Dooo eeeet!!
Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 1890	Posted - 2013.11.21 18:43:00 - [9] - Quote CCP owns all virtual goods in game including your character. CCP reserves the right to change in-game items which is necessary for this type of game or else they would never be able to improve the game. The player claiming legal rights to continue to own those specific blueprints is wrong. He purchased Aurum. He got Aurum. He spent the Aurum. He is now operating in the virtual world where CCP has the right to modify or remove the item. They chose to play nice return the Aurum so that players can purchase a different item. He still has access to the service provided by CCP and a comparable amount of virtual goods. If they hadn't returned the Aurum or left the player with an old and useless module the crying would now be about being left with a useless item. The developer is improving the game and providing you with comparable virtual currency. What is the problem? // Logistics / Scout / Dropship Pilot Trainee // https://twitter.com/reesnoturana
Mortedeamor WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL 794	Posted - 2013.11.21 18:46:00 - [10] - Quote are you sure there isnt some precedence for this ? it looks like when you buy aur you are not in fact buying aur buy exchanging real time money for a virtual currency ...then you spend that virtual currency for virtual items in game to technically if ccp takes bpo's they are stealing from us..we exchanged our currency for aur which is just an ingame virtual currency ..then we purchased these bpos. we spent real money on those bpos doesnt matter if they were purchased in psn store or dust in game store

Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5218	Posted - 2013.11.21 18:47:00 - [11] - Quote Reav Hannari wrote: CCP owns all virtual goods in game including your character. CCP reserves the right to change in-game items which is necessary for this type of game or else they would never be able to improve the game. The player claiming legal rights to continue to own those specific blueprints is wrong. He purchased Aurum. He got Aurum. He spent the Aurum. He is now operating in the virtual world where CCP has the right to modify or remove the item. They chose to play nice return the Aurum so that players can purchase a different item. He still has access to the service provided by CCP and a comparable amount of virtual goods. If they hadn't returned the Aurum or left the player with an old and useless module the crying would now be about being left with a useless item. The developer is improving the game and providing you with comparable virtual currency. What is the problem? The problem, at least for the folks QQing about it, is that these people who are QQing might not understand what's going on here. If you're right, then these items were only available in-game as separate items requiring X amount of AUR to purchase with. This means that this whole thing about lawsuits and stuff like that is not only unnecessary but completely overblown. CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 1733	Posted - 2013.11.21 18:52:00 - [12] - Quote In game market These BPO were never in any merc packs and i bought nearly all of them at one time or another If i get the AUR back i wont be too fussed because like they said they will never be put back in, also from the sound of that we will never see items again even as non milita items which kinda sucks since they have variations which exist in EVE at least Get AUR buy boosters
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 1587	Posted - 2013.11.21 18:52:00 - [13] - Quote Foxbat 071 wrote: Let the people who are b*tching about the four vehicle BPOs keep them. Leave them with a BPO of a non-existing module that can't be fitted if they want them so bad. This was my reaction to the BPO removal backlash.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5219	Posted - 2013.11.21 18:52:00 - [14] - Quote Mortedeamor wrote: are you sure there isnt some precedence for this ? it looks like when you buy aur you are not in fact buying aur buy exchanging real time money for a virtual currency ...then you spend that virtual currency for virtual items in game to technically if ccp takes bpo's they are stealing from us..we exchanged our currency for aur which is just an ingame virtual currency ..then we purchased these bpos. we spent real money on those bpos doesnt matter if they were purchased in psn store or dust in game store Again, answer my question. Were these BPOs ONLY available via the in-game market which required you to first purchase AUR to get it with? If so, then CCP technically wasn't stealing from you. They gave you back the AUR you spent on the BPO for. Just like how Sony would refund you with either cash or store credit if they removed AUR from your wallet. If they were also available in the PSN Store "AS PART OF" of a merc pack (example: 'Toxin' SMG on the Merc Pack) and you spent real world $$$ for that, then you can say CCP robbed you. If they were available as part of a Merc Pack, which packs were they part of? CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5219	Posted - 2013.11.21 18:56:00 - [15] - Quote Mortedeamor wrote: we spent real money on those bpos doesnt matter if they were purchased in psn store or dust in game store I hate to be the bad guy here or be the Devil's advocate, but I have to say this... If you answered YES* to my question, then you NEVER spent real money on those BPOs in question. You only spent AUR to get those BPOs. Again, Sony as a seller would care less what you intended to do with the AUR when you bought it from Sony. EDIT: Stupid typos CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 1587	Posted - 2013.11.21 18:57:00 - [16] - Quote Personally, I think the QQGÇÖers are just Trolling us.
Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 1892	Posted - 2013.11.21 18:58:00 - [17] - Quote According to the DUST 514 EULA Purchase of content is governed by the Sony Entertainment Terms of Service. http://dust514.com/eula/ http://www.sonyentertainmentnetwork.com/terms-of-service/ This looks like it might apply: SNEI DOES NOT PROVIDE ANY REFUNDS IN THE EVENT OF A PRICE DROP, A SUBSEQUENT PROMOTIONAL OFFERING OR PRODUCT REMOVAL, AND THE FEE APPLICABLE TO YOUR TRANSACTION WILL BE THE FEE THAT WAS IN EFFECT AT THE TIME OF THE TRANSACTION. // Logistics / Scout / Dropship Pilot Trainee // https://twitter.com/reesnoturana
Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 1892	Posted - 2013.11.21 19:00:00 - [18] - Quote Personally, I think once the money is spent and you are dealing with Aurum or virtual goods then CCP retains all rights to do whatever they think is necessary. // Logistics / Scout / Dropship Pilot Trainee // https://twitter.com/reesnoturana
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5220	Posted - 2013.11.21 19:01:00 - [19] - Quote Reav Hannari wrote: According to the DUST 514 EULA Purchase of content is governed by the Sony Entertainment Terms of Service. http://dust514.com/eula/ http://www.sonyentertainmentnetwork.com/terms-of-service/ This looks like it might apply: SNEI DOES NOT PROVIDE ANY REFUNDS IN THE EVENT OF A PRICE DROP, A SUBSEQUENT PROMOTIONAL OFFERING OR PRODUCT REMOVAL, AND THE FEE APPLICABLE TO YOUR TRANSACTION WILL BE THE FEE THAT WAS IN EFFECT AT THE TIME OF THE TRANSACTION. That still doesn't answer the question. Were these specific BPOs being removed by CCP ONLY available via the in-game market in Dust? CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5220	Posted - 2013.11.21 19:02:00 - [20] - Quote You guys are probably wondering why I'm constantly asking the same question even though you already answered it for me. There is a reason for this. CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.

SteelDark Knight Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 155	Posted - 2013.11.21 19:05:00 - [21] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: In game market These BPO were never in any merc packs and i bought nearly all of them at one time or another If i get the AUR back i wont be too fussed because like they said they will never be put back in, also from the sound of that we will never see items again even as non milita items which kinda sucks since they have variations which exist in EVE at least Get AUR buy boosters Yea, I'm kinda surprised that we will NEVER get passive shield resists, reps, 180mm plate, etc. ever again.
Anarchide Greedy Bastards 1509	Posted - 2013.11.21 19:05:00 - [22] - Quote I bought Packs and then used the AUR included in those packs to buy BPOs Level 1 Forum Warrior Hate Lord
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5220	Posted - 2013.11.21 19:07:00 - [23] - Quote Anarchide wrote: I bought Packs and then used the AUR included in those packs to buy BPOs But you paid money only for what was in those packs. Sony still can care less on what you do with that AUR. If you spent that AUR on these four particular BPOs and CCP is refunding them (all of it) to you, then you just got the AUR back. No problems here. CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5221	Posted - 2013.11.21 19:09:00 - [24] - Quote As you can see people, this is the point I'm trying to make. You only purchased these BPOs with AUR. The AUR is what you spent your real money on. You're getting that AUR (all of it) back. Therefore, this whole thing is being overblown with threats of lawsuits and stuff like that. But of course, this still doesn't excuse why CCP went back on their word of never touching our BPOs in our inventory. Then again, they go back on a lot of things. CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5221	Posted - 2013.11.21 19:15:00 - [25] - Quote Bump for exposure. I'm surprised Seymor or Yelsha haven't posted here so far. They're probably at work or something. Eventually they'll see this. CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 10470	Posted - 2013.11.21 19:20:00 - [26] - Quote +1 Op, I was going to say something similar but you laid it out far better, also I am sure I would have more heated replies and get called a troll again. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier Specialist Current Theme \\= Advanced Scrambler Rifle =// Unlocked
Kane Fyea DUST University Ivy League 2242	Posted - 2013.11.21 19:21:00 - [27] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Mortedeamor wrote: are you sure there isnt some precedence for this ? it looks like when you buy aur you are not in fact buying aur buy exchanging real time money for a virtual currency ...then you spend that virtual currency for virtual items in game to technically if ccp takes bpo's they are stealing from us..we exchanged our currency for aur which is just an ingame virtual currency ..then we purchased these bpos. we spent real money on those bpos doesnt matter if they were purchased in psn store or dust in game store Again, answer my question. Were these BPOs ONLY available via the in-game market which required you to first purchase AUR to get it with? If so, then CCP technically wasn't stealing from you. They gave you back the AUR you spent on the BPO for. Just like how Sony would refund you with either cash or store credit if they removed AUR from your wallet. If they were also available in the PSN Store "AS PART OF" of a merc pack (example: 'Toxin' SMG on the Merc Pack) and you spent real world $$$ for that, then you can say CCP robbed you. If they were available as part of a Merc Pack, which packs were they part of? Just one thing Sony does not allow real money refunds. The best refund you can get is psn money.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5221	Posted - 2013.11.21 19:23:00 - [28] - Quote UPDATED As of 21 Nov 2013 @ 19:16 Eve Time I just remembered. I still have the BPO of the Yellow Stamina Mod known as the Cardiac Stimulant. It use to have an ISK equivalent back then, but then that ISK variant got removed because it later became obsolete due to the Green Stamina Mod you all know as the Cardiac Regulator. But I still have the BPO. On top of that, it still has the same exact stats as before and I can still fit it if I want. Interesting how the plot thickens. CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 10470	Posted - 2013.11.21 19:23:00 - [29] - Quote Anarchide wrote: I bought Packs and then used the AUR included in those packs to buy BPOs Aurum is not serialized like a bit coin is. Also what you do with an item once you have it is entirely at your own fault. Like you trashed the BPOs from the same pack or traded (if trading is allowed) for a butt load of isk, you are at fault to what happens to that item. So because its ccp fault they have to remove the stuff you threw aurum away on, they're kind enough to refund it. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier Specialist Current Theme \\= Advanced Scrambler Rifle =// Unlocked
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 59	Posted - 2013.11.21 19:25:00 - [30] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: After some time of reflecting on recent events here in the forums, I came to the following conclusion. If any of you disagree with me, please speak now or forever hold your pee. ... If you were only able to purchase these BPOs using AUR acquired from the PSN Store then technically, using Yelsha's quote "Every time you buy something you make a contract with the seller" this means that you specifically agreed to pay X amount of real money for X amount of AUR. The seller could technically care less (or none at all) about what you intend to do with the AUR after that. If the same seller makes a sudden change to that AUR, you are entitled to a cash refund for that AUR. ... IF on the other hand you managed to purchase these particular BPOs "AS PART OF" a Merc Pack that was featuring it (example: a 'Toxin' SMG as part of a Merc Pack) by spending X amount of real world money to get that Merc Pack, then you have a case of sorts. ... Unfortunately this situation has already been broached and handled in EVE Online. In EVE they introduced PLEX which is a game representation of 30 day of subscription time. You pay real world money for the time card code you get from a vendor. the code "promises" x days of gameplay which is true if you use it directly for that. However CCP added another option where you can log into the game, enter the code and a PLEX virtual item appears in your item hangar in game. You can then sell or trade this in the game as you please. It can be scammed off you, it can be lost, it can be destroyed... So the "promise" of game time for money represents the same situation you are describing, a promise of something in the game (BPO) for real money (AUR). However this situation of money for services NOT rendered when a PLEX is destroyed in game has been brought up in EVE and shot down before. This BPO situation is no different.



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