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Sleepy Shadow
L.O.T.I.S.
Public Disorder.
84
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Posted - 2013.11.22 10:33:00 -
[1] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:I'm surprised no one has come up with a valid counterpoint to my OP. Am I actually right for once?
Your claim is not correct. Only if CCP offered different payment methods would your point be valid. When the only option to purchase in game items is in game currency, then CCP cannot dictate that refunds are only given in in game currency. I had to exchange my money, which is valid currency in several countries, to their own digital currency in order to purchase items they advertised as permanent. When they remove said items, they are liable to give me my valid currency back which I can use outside this game. I didn't buy AUR to have AUR, I bought it because it was the only method to obtain their advertised items.
This is the same as if a store only allowed payments with their own voucher. You would have to change your money at the door to their store vouchers that are only valid in their store. If they then go an terminate a contract, they are liable to exchange your voucher back to valid currency because the only reason you exchanged to their voucher was to purchase an item they later removed from stock. If this was allowed, retailers could effectively "trap" customers and force them to make purchases in their store and never worry about having to refund or lose sales. Just advertise an item, make people purchase their vouchers, remove item from stock and refund store credit only. Brilliant.
Seriously, look at it this way:
CCP sells items that are advertised as permanent
The only way to purchase these items is to exchange valid currency to in game currency
3000 players purchase $5 worth of BPOGÇÖs, creating $15,000.00 revenue for CCP
CCP removes these items from the game and dictates that refunds are in game currency only
CCP profit $15,000.00, cost $0.00 for refunds (AUR does not cost anything to CCP)
Players donGÇÖt have the items they purchased or the money they used to purchase them and are left with in game currency which is valid only in game
Some players might be happy with AUR refund, it is not illegal to offer store credit as compensation if customer is happy to use the credit on other items. But if the customer is not happy with store credit, if the store offers nothing of interest, then the trader is liable to refund in cash or exchange to similar item. Consumer cannot be penalized on matters out of their control. If CCP offered both real world currency payments (micro transactions with $) and the option to purchase in game currency (AUR) then it would be within their right to refund according to payment method.
Like I said in the other topic, I am willing to let this slide. IGÇÖm upset that they are taking two BPOGÇÖs from me because a month earlier they said they will not do it. But if they even consider taking more BPOGÇÖs from me, I will exercise my right as a consumer and demand PSN credit.
.ߦóߦî+ÿ+ÿߦÿߦŠߦó+ê+æߦåߦÅߦë - -Æߦ£ß¦îߦîß+¦ Qߦ+ߦÇߦîߦë-ô-ù-+ߦå ߦáߦÉߦÜ+½ß¦â.
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Sleepy Shadow
L.O.T.I.S.
Public Disorder.
84
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Posted - 2013.11.22 11:39:00 -
[2] - Quote
Rogue Saint wrote:Sleepy Shadow wrote:
Like I said in the other topic, I am willing to let this slide. IGÇÖm upset that they are taking two BPOGÇÖs from me because a month earlier they said they will not do it. But if they even consider taking more BPOGÇÖs from me, I will exercise my right as a consumer and demand PSN credit.
But the modules that those BPO's represent are disappearing. So, do you want to keep BPO's that you can't use? I have lots of BPO's, I'm thankful that I will be getting approx 45K AUR for them (across all chars). I don't want BPO's I can't use cluttering my inventory. Thank you CCP.
CCP cannot make items redundant. At the time I purchased these items they were advertised as having certain affects and to be permanent. This is what I paid for. CCP could just modify the items so long as their purpose or functionality is not drastically changed (e.g. shield booster suddenly gives 1HP/pulse or instead of vehicles they work on lamp posts) and IGÇÖm sure most people would be fine with that. If the item is drastically changed or removed entirely I am entitled to a refund. And CCP cannot dictate that refund. They can offer me store credit (AUR), similar item (not available) or cash.
.ߦóߦî+ÿ+ÿߦÿߦŠߦó+ê+æߦåߦÅߦë - -Æߦ£ß¦îߦîß+¦ Qߦ+ߦÇߦîߦë-ô-ù-+ߦå ߦáߦÉߦÜ+½ß¦â.
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Sleepy Shadow
L.O.T.I.S.
Public Disorder.
84
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Posted - 2013.11.22 18:07:00 -
[3] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:@Sleepy
Finally, someone who offers a good counterpoint to my OP.
Your point does seem rather valid I admit. But I got a question for you on what you pointed out in regards to CCP selling "nothing of interest" in your opinion. What may not be of interest to you, may be an interest to another player. Therefore something of interest is a very subjective term. As you pointed out already and as made apparent by those posting here, many of us here still find interest in some of what CCP has to offer.
I find AUR suits, weapons, modules to be of interest even if they're not permanent items. They help me save ISK for example. The boosters are also of interest to me because I can gain SP faster which, if applied onto the right skill books, can turn my seemingly weak starter suits into effective killing machines for their class.
Now for my question. How can you define what's considered something of interest if someone else may disagree with you on what you consider to be interesting? For example, I might find boosters interesting but someone else won't. Someone else might see AUR RESPECs as interesting but someone won't.
On top of that, there is a possibility that CCP might offer something of interesting later on in the future that we haven't seen before. One idea that comes to mind is the ability to convert the AUR into AUR Tokens and trade the AUR Tokens for ISK to other players who have boatloads of ISK. Eve Online players have the ability to buy and sell AUR Tokens amongst each other, but just like AUR in Dust, AUR in Eve has to be injected into the economy via one of the players paying cash directly to CCP for that Token.
It is subjective but because the contract is terminated by CCP, not me, I am the one who can choose the preferred method of compensation. This goes for anyone the removal of BPO's concern. Likewise if I choose not to use the item, or feel it isnGÇÖt what I wanted after all, CCP is in no way liable to compensate me. If I wanted to sell the item back, CCP is in no way obliged to pay me the full retail price. And so on and so forth...
CCP is allowed to offer blanket compensation to make matters easy (everyone getting their AUR back) but it is still disputable. A player can contact CCP, inform them that they are not happy with the compensation and try to work things out with CCP. If CCP's offers of store credit, another item or the like do not satisfy the player, then CCP must refund cash.
I use AUR items from time to time but I still have a boat load of it. I am not going to jump at CCP because they are removing two BPOGÇÖs from me, though as I have mentioned I am upset about it. I will let it slide, I will not demand a cash refund. I have purchased items in game because I like the game and I want to support it. I donGÇÖt mean that CCP needs to start refunding everyone right now, IGÇÖm just pointing out that consumers have rights and CCP cannot dictate the terms. People on this forum have been obscenely rude to people trying to defend their rights (I'm not meaning you here, just generally).
But I will also not stand idly by if CCP tries to remove more BPOGÇÖs. I have my limits 
.ߦóߦî+ÿ+ÿߦÿߦŠߦó+ê+æߦåߦÅߦë - -Æߦ£ß¦îߦîß+¦ Qߦ+ߦÇߦîߦë-ô-ù-+ߦå ߦáߦÉߦÜ+½ß¦â.
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Sleepy Shadow
L.O.T.I.S.
Public Disorder.
84
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 18:36:00 -
[4] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:Now for my question. How can you define what's considered something of interest if someone else may disagree with you on what you consider to be interesting? For example, I might find boosters interesting but someone else won't. Someone else might see AUR RESPECs as interesting but someone won't.
Sorry, didnGÇÖt really address this, my bad. Or maybe I did, I don't know... But anyway, this is in addition to my above post. While the consumer is entitled to a refund or compensation, they are not entitled to a refund of their choosing or of greater value. For example a BPO MLT shield module is not equal to BPO LAV or paying $5 for the BPO does not entitle you to a refund of $10.00 because GÇ£you feel inconveniencedGÇ¥. As a consumer you are entitled to store credit or cash refund of the paid amount or an equal item. CCP (or any store) can offer different items if they so wish (to make happy customers for example) but they are not obliged to do so.
Store credit can only be exchanged to items in said store. So if the customer does not find anything they desire in the store, and this is one's personal opinion only, they are entitled to a cash refund.
I may or may not be rambling at this point. I may or may not need a beer.
.ߦóߦî+ÿ+ÿߦÿߦŠߦó+ê+æߦåߦÅߦë - -Æߦ£ß¦îߦîß+¦ Qߦ+ߦÇߦîߦë-ô-ù-+ߦå ߦáߦÉߦÜ+½ß¦â.
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Sleepy Shadow
L.O.T.I.S.
Public Disorder.
84
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Posted - 2013.11.22 23:01:00 -
[5] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:In that case, what do you make of Yelsha's effort to file a legal complaint against CCP?
What do you think of his idea of compensation such as the Master Recruiter CII Dropsuit, which is an item that has no aurum value and is a dropsuit item (not a vehicle one)?
Do you think he even has a snowball's chance in hell that he could succeed?
What do you think of the plex case brought up by Jadd?
Contacting local consumer protection office to get free advice is fine, you should make sure if youGÇÖre right about your claim. IGÇÖm sure they said to him more or less the same I said here. He only needs legal help if CCP refuses to either offer a suitable item in return or refund cash (since it seems he is not willing to accept AUR).
And he can ask for whatever he wants but CCP is not obliged to comply if his request isnGÇÖt within reason. If he is asking for one dropsuit, that is not a BPO, then why shouldnGÇÖt CCP agree :D it is actually inferior as when he dies, he loses it. If itGÇÖs a BPO, then no it is not within reason as the suit is vastly superior to the BPO he loses. If he remains unreasonable, CCP can just refund him money and he cannot complain or dispute it again. Cash is final and the GÇ£debtGÇ¥ is settled.
I donGÇÖt know much about PLEX (I donGÇÖt play EVE) but the item seems GÇ£either orGÇ¥. Either you use it to extend your subscription to EVE or you use it as a token to receive in game items. Now, again, I donGÇÖt know how EVE works. Can your BPOGÇÖs be stolen? And I thought there was only one BPO ship, or am I wrong? If the item was not sold as permanent (meaning no matter what you do you cannot lose it) the no, you donGÇÖt have any grounds to demand compensation if you lose it.
I donGÇÖt know how CCP introduced the new feature to the PLEX so I cannot say if players had any grounds to demand a refund. And in what circumstance did they demand a refund anyway? After losing the ship? Or after using their PLEX to get in game items only to notice they couldnGÇÖt use it to a subscription?
.ߦóߦî+ÿ+ÿߦÿߦŠߦó+ê+æߦåߦÅߦë - -Æߦ£ß¦îߦîß+¦ Qߦ+ߦÇߦîߦë-ô-ù-+ߦå ߦáߦÉߦÜ+½ß¦â.
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Sleepy Shadow
L.O.T.I.S.
Public Disorder.
84
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Posted - 2013.11.23 08:24:00 -
[6] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:Yes, the dropsuit item he is requesting as compensation is a BPO according to the Dust 514 "Recruit Your Friends" page:
Your third paragraph:
Only after losing the ship did some of them tried to demand a refund. But the only people who demanded such refunds were players who were completely new to the game and the concept behind PLEX. After a while, they gave up trying after realizing it was their fault as players for not being careful with them in a universe full of egomaniacs, sociopaths, masochists, sadists, and even corporate spies and outlaws. Hauling PLEX in a ship unfit to survive a short attack in high-sec space filled with such players is like parking your Rolls Royce in the hood. Don't expect anyone to NOT do anything.
Oh, just so you know, scamming, corporate theft, espionage, and all that fun stuff is already legal here in Dust. Once player-to-player trading is introduced to Dust, I expect a lot of players to pump out tears when they realized they sold their most prized possessions to another player for just 0.01 ISK. Just like how it happens in Eve. But that will probably be a year from now.
Then it cannot be considered reasonable and he is not entitled to it. He can kick and scream until his lungs fall out, but CCP is not obliged to give him that item in return. CCP can, if they deem his business worthy, but I doubt thatGÇÖll ever happen. They seem to hate BPOGÇÖs at the moment and giving someone more of them doesnGÇÖt sound like something theyGÇÖd do.
Corporation cannot be held liable for everything (at least in Europe, US still kinda freaks me out with the mad law suits) and consumers have responsibility too. If CCP has made it clear what the world of New Eden is like (everything you mentioned) it is consumers responsibility to read everything carefully before spending any money.
The situation with our BPOGÇÖs and EVEGÇÖs PLEX shenanigans is different because the party that sold us the BPOGÇÖs is removing them. In EVE players lost their stuff to other players by making stupid decisions. CCP is not responsible for that, so long as it has made it clear to new players it is perfectly possible to lose everything you have in game. If CCP itself had removed those items you got with PLEX then they would be liable to refund.
It is going to be interesting when we get the player market. I would love to get my hands on some items but I think, at least in the beginning, I will only trade with my corp mates and friends (yes, IGÇÖm a coward). And I want vanity items for DUST!! CCP come on, make these and I will throw money at you!
.ߦóߦî+ÿ+ÿߦÿߦŠߦó+ê+æߦåߦÅߦë - -Æߦ£ß¦îߦîß+¦ Qߦ+ߦÇߦîߦë-ô-ù-+ߦå ߦáߦÉߦÜ+½ß¦â.
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Sleepy Shadow
L.O.T.I.S.
Public Disorder.
84
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Posted - 2013.11.24 10:59:00 -
[7] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:NomaDz 2K wrote:Mortedeamor wrote:are you sure there isnt some precedence for this ?
it looks like when you buy aur you are not in fact buying aur buy exchanging real time money for a virtual currency ...then you spend that virtual currency for virtual items in game to technically if ccp takes bpo's they are stealing from us..we exchanged our currency for aur which is just an ingame virtual currency ..then we purchased these bpos.
we spent real money on those bpos doesnt matter if they were purchased in psn store or dust in game store ^THIS Again, you never purchased the BPOs with cash directly. You purchased the aurum first in order to get the BPOs.
Didn't I cover this quite extensively?
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Sleepy Shadow
L.O.T.I.S.
Public Disorder.
84
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Posted - 2013.11.24 11:50:00 -
[8] - Quote
Fizzer94 wrote:Nobody owns any BPOs anyway. We are all just leasing them from CCP until CCP takes them back (which they can do whenever they want, with or without warning). The magic of DRM, folks. You can't buy digital goods, only lease them, usually forever (but there are exceptions).
Eventually, Tranquillity will shut down and what then? Will you expect CCP to refund all the money you spent on Dust/EVE?
It makes no difference if itGÇÖs let or owned. BPOGÇÖs were let indefinitely, so if they are removed the contract is breached and CCP is liable to compensate. CCP can do whatever they want with the BPOGÇÖs, or any item in game, but it does not remove their liability to those who paid for them.
And discontinuing the development and support of a game is vastly different from just removing items from it.
.ߦóߦî+ÿ+ÿߦÿߦŠߦó+ê+æߦåߦÅߦë - -Æߦ£ß¦îߦîß+¦ Qߦ+ߦÇߦîߦë-ô-ù-+ߦå ߦáߦÉߦÜ+½ß¦â.
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Sleepy Shadow
L.O.T.I.S.
Public Disorder.
84
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Posted - 2013.11.24 14:08:00 -
[9] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:Sleepy Shadow wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:NomaDz 2K wrote:Mortedeamor wrote:are you sure there isnt some precedence for this ?
it looks like when you buy aur you are not in fact buying aur buy exchanging real time money for a virtual currency ...then you spend that virtual currency for virtual items in game to technically if ccp takes bpo's they are stealing from us..we exchanged our currency for aur which is just an ingame virtual currency ..then we purchased these bpos.
we spent real money on those bpos doesnt matter if they were purchased in psn store or dust in game store ^THIS Again, you never purchased the BPOs with cash directly. You purchased the aurum first in order to get the BPOs. Didn't I cover this quite extensively? That whole voucher comparison still assumes/depends on whether the courts will see aurum as either a currency conversion or simply an a product. You'll be surprised about how technicalities play a role in the courts. And yes, the court of law can often times make very little sense. Take the George Zimmerman case and compare that to another somewhat similar case of a black woman firing a warning shot against her abusing husband who was about to kill her. The only difference is that no one died in the second case but the woman got sentenced to twenty years just because she discharged the weapon. How's that for technicality? Keep in mind that both cases happened in the same state (Florida) in about the same year.
Zimmermann is in the States while CCP operates in Europe and all disputes will be handled under UK law. I wouldnGÇÖt trust any court proceeding to be the same in the states. IGÇÖve read plenty of crazy lawsuits and even our coffee cups here have those silly warnings on them.
Like I said before, CCP is allowed to offer a blanket compensation to make matters easy. This does not, nor has CCP stated so, mean that all other compensations are out the window. It would be too time consuming to ask everyone to send them mail individually and tell them what they want as compensation. When they do it like this, most will be happy with AUR and those that are not can contact CCP separately.
If CCP thinks, or can prove, that they are not liable to refund anything other than AUR then I would like to see them first to state that and second show what law they base it on.
.ߦóߦî+ÿ+ÿߦÿߦŠߦó+ê+æߦåߦÅߦë - -Æߦ£ß¦îߦîß+¦ Qߦ+ߦÇߦîߦë-ô-ù-+ߦå ߦáߦÉߦÜ+½ß¦â.
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Sleepy Shadow
L.O.T.I.S.
Public Disorder.
84
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Posted - 2013.11.24 16:15:00 -
[10] - Quote
Duran Lex wrote:Sleepy Shadow wrote:Fizzer94 wrote:Nobody owns any BPOs anyway. We are all just leasing them from CCP until CCP takes them back (which they can do whenever they want, with or without warning). The magic of DRM, folks. You can't buy digital goods, only lease them, usually forever (but there are exceptions).
Eventually, Tranquillity will shut down and what then? Will you expect CCP to refund all the money you spent on Dust/EVE? It makes no difference if itGÇÖs let or owned. BPOGÇÖs were let indefinitely, so if they are removed the contract is breached and CCP is liable to compensate. CCP can do whatever they want with the BPOGÇÖs, or any item in game, but it does not remove their liability to those who paid for them. And discontinuing the development and support of a game is vastly different from just removing items from it. The problem with your with your logic : CCP hasn't breached the contract. Yes if they indeed breach the contract, legal action being taken is liable. But they did not breach it. Also just to let you know, you views on refunds are flawed in general. Refunds are only a guarantee if the provider of respective services gives you that guarantee. Refunds aren't some magical law that applies to any and all products.
No, they are not. You should do a bit more reading if you think so, European Consumer Centre is a good start. EULA cannot and will never supersede law.
CCP has breached the contract when they remove items that were sold as permanent. I bought an item in good faith and under the assumption that the item had certain effects and was permanent. When CCP changes this, which they are fully allowed to do, they are liable to compensate.
I suggest you start reading my posts from this one.
Quote:And as stated in the EULA, they will not provide refunds on termination of any of their products or services. Meaning, you aren't entitled to a refund, ever. Even if you spent 5000$ on Dust 514 the day before they decide to scrap the whole game and stop services, you are screwed, for you accepted the terms of their contract.
And as I stated, discontinuing the development and support of a game is vastly different from just removing items from it. I have never said anyone is entitled to a compensation if CCP decides to stop developing and supporting this game.
.ߦóߦî+ÿ+ÿߦÿߦŠߦó+ê+æߦåߦÅߦë - -Æߦ£ß¦îߦîß+¦ Qߦ+ߦÇߦîߦë-ô-ù-+ߦå ߦáߦÉߦÜ+½ß¦â.
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