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Zatara Rought
MoIden Heath PoIice Department
EoN.
1424
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Posted - 2013.10.27 19:35:00 -
[61] - Quote
Roner General wrote:Having 1 forge gunner defending that 1 point instead of wasting a squad defending it is a clever way of utilizing the forge gun and having that squad (which could of been defending that one point the FG is) attacking another point is a clever way to win PC's by flooding another point with more than 1 squad. it's not a cheap tactic, it's a clever tactic
Having 3 places on the bridge towers (with the towers sockets on the outside) map where you can spam uplinks enough that a single ob won't kill them all the links and put 6 forgers on top of 3 points thus making it impossible to get up to the forger while also being denied 3-5 points...that's just **** poor map design and a broken gun imo.
NEXT! |
Leadfoot10
Molon Labe.
RISE of LEGION
94
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Posted - 2013.10.27 19:37:00 -
[62] - Quote
Fences around the high buildings are one solution.
Nerfing the splash damage is another.
The one I prefer, however, is the addition of strategically placed spires to obscure the view of the null cannons from the towers/rings. |
Funkmaster Whale
0uter.Heaven
1012
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 19:50:00 -
[63] - Quote
Here's why FGs are so effective:
- Lag makes ground game a grenade-spamming nightmare. FGs don't suffer the lag as much because player movement is a non-issue in regards to target tracking.
- High-ground is the only way to effectively counter uplink spam. FGs are great at killing the dozens of uplinks that you Logis spam.
- FGs are the most effective way to prevent infantry movement via killing dropships, LAVs, even tanks. There is literally nothing an FG can't kill, so it's the best all-around weapon if set up properly.
- FGs are 2-3 splash damage kills, and we all know splash damage is king in PC (*cough* grenades *cough*).
- It's hard to know when you're exposed to a FG because their arc of view is so wide.
- Bad map design.
Face it Zatara, this games mechanics are broken. People are going to do whatever they need to do to win. If that means spamming grenades, uplinks, forge guns, or what have you, they'll do it. And when one thing is nerfed, big-name corps will move to the next most effective tactic. It's not like these tactics are new and unheard of. Literally EVERY corp does the same ****. It just comes down to who has the better luck and who has the better ARs/Shotgunners/FGs/grenade-throwers. |
Cass Caul
Namtar Elite
Gallente Federation
187
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Posted - 2013.10.27 19:58:00 -
[64] - Quote
Just saying, I'm pretty good at taking those roof-forgers out. yet I haven't been sniper in PC for the entire lifetime of MHPD |
SgtDoughnut
Red Star Jr.
EoN.
334
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 20:10:00 -
[65] - Quote
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:That CAN potentially work too, but I don't want to pop all my precious uplinks and hives by accident.
If someone has the drop on you and you don't manage to get that ohk off, all those uplinks and hives are gone anyway. |
Himiko Kuronaga
MoIden Heath PoIice Department
EoN.
2041
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 20:20:00 -
[66] - Quote
SgtDoughnut wrote:Himiko Kuronaga wrote:That CAN potentially work too, but I don't want to pop all my precious uplinks and hives by accident. If someone has the drop on you and you don't manage to get that ohk off, all those uplinks and hives are gone anyway.
Around half of the time they miss an uplink before I, or someone else, can respawn and stop what they are doing.
Reality is not the paper scenario that should happen every time. |
CharCharOdell
Shining Flame
Amarr Empire
1309
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 20:23:00 -
[67] - Quote
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:We resort to "cheap tactics" because the best corps will do whatever is necessary to win. You won't, which is why you will always be in a garbage corp. And just because we are doing it, does not mean we want the game to work this way. It means we are playing the hand we have been dealt. Does that answer your question, or would you like to continue ranting in an illogical fashion due to your inferiority complex surrounding better players? Also the next time your dumb ass decides to use the word "scrub", recognize how the word was first introduced in the gaming community and who coined the term. Then recognize you are the scrub . Quote:The scrub would take great issue with this statement for he usually believes that he is playing to win, but he is bound up by an intricate construct of fictitious rules that prevent him from ever truly competing. These made-up rules vary from game to game, of course, but their character remains constant.
Which is why spamming boundless boom booms is awesome!
It's like a baby forge! |
IMMORTAL WAR HERO
BAD SANTA'S SCHOOL 4 SCOUNDRELS
52
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Posted - 2013.10.27 20:29:00 -
[68] - Quote
Zatara Rought wrote:So...if you haven't heard I've been playing some pretty talented ringer team from OH and AE. Individually the corps are pretty strong, but together, damn that's a sexy combination. One thing I've noticed since beginning our back and forth has been an adjustment we've had to make to control the towers or tall buildings. Which is fine, we get them now with my handy dandy dropship but let me tell ya...before when I'd get to the city, man they'd spam so many links and forges you simply cannot in any capacity stop them from forging almost any vehicle you spawn in addition to them being able to deny many points (I had no clue they could deny A on the bridge maps from tall buildings on home points with the large splash of the mighty zeus gun) and own city infantry on most maps. Prior to this we strived to "contain" them with snipers, but damn, rather have them sniping our forges than dealing with the alternative. Anyone else recognize this as the definitive strategy they encounter?
I WAS DROPSHIP PILOT FOR DEM DURRTY BOYS a horrible job that was glad im not there anymore i seen all of ohs tricks they spam uplinks on one building where you find radar with thales then you see 20 uplinks ontop of skyscraper in city near where A is in domination...... i suggest a suicide mass driver and flux grenedes or assult dropship....... you need either a thales or a good charge sniper keeping pressure on roof tops so they cant play peek a boo....... i suggested this to ddb but they didn't care to listen try a logistics drop ship way up high in sky and drop infanty onto these spots and place your own beacons..... this requires more than 1 person to assault the roof tops......in pc vs oh i was only one attacking roof tops..... i swear they use battle strategy similar to ill omens as far as the forge gun tactics go |
The Attorney General
MoIden Heath PoIice Department
EoN.
1354
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 22:00:00 -
[69] - Quote
Canari Elphus wrote:
Actually, I think you guys got it from us and we got the tactic from Zion
I can confirm that Zion used rooftop forges from Day One of PC.
Always fight from the top down, especially when once you get there, the enemy will find it almost impossible to get up there to counter you. |
Bethhy
Ancient Exiles
227
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 18:15:00 -
[70] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Bethhy wrote:
Firing a forge gun previously there was always some variation where the charge would go in the large reticule a forge gun has.
This allowed for the forge gun to be used to hit large targets with good accuracy... A.K.A tanks... and dropships that didn't make themself's tiny.
However sniping infantry with the charge never going to the same spot in the reticule... was much like rolling the dice... it took a bit of skill and as much luck to sniper infantry with a forge gun.
There's no "skill" involved with random bullet spread. See MAG's 1.03 patch. Scott Rudi ruined that game.
It was then... everyone moved fast and few people stood long behind cover.. it was a running and gunning game... |
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God Hates Lags
Red Star.
EoN.
128
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Posted - 2013.10.28 18:27:00 -
[71] - Quote
Honestly for me the problem with roof forges is not so much that they roof forge but that they can do so with near impunity. It's practically impossible to kill a heavy looking down on you - you can't one shot a heavy with a sniper rifle and he can just run back behind cover when hit. Any attempt to dislodge forgers with dropships is pointless since a dropship will be annihilated by forge guns. I think instead of nerfing forges we should just buff dropships so that they can contest the towers more effectively. Letting passengers fire from drop ships could completely alleviate this problem completely. |
Canari Elphus
Pro Hic Immortalis
727
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Posted - 2013.10.28 18:30:00 -
[72] - Quote
The Attorney General wrote:Canari Elphus wrote:
Actually, I think you guys got it from us and we got the tactic from Zion
I can confirm that Zion used rooftop forges from Day One of PC. Always fight from the top down, especially when once you get there, the enemy will find it almost impossible to get up there to counter you.
Yeah, that first battle we had against you in the ROFL vs. STB/Zion fight we saw how effective that tactic was. So I guess be happy, you are Patient Zero in the FG Roof Camper Plague!
Proud Sponsor of the United Light-pole Defense Fund. "Protecting Our Skies For A Better Tomorrow"
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ReGnYuM
MoIden Heath PoIice Department
EoN.
1201
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Posted - 2013.10.28 18:32:00 -
[73] - Quote
Can we get a dev response please.
...You know, seeing how FG sniping is plaguing your Flagship Gamemode |
Canari Elphus
Pro Hic Immortalis
727
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Posted - 2013.10.28 18:34:00 -
[74] - Quote
God Hates Lags wrote:. Letting passengers fire from drop ships could completely alleviate this problem completely.
Then you would have forges and MDs in dropships 
Proud Sponsor of the United Light-pole Defense Fund. "Protecting Our Skies For A Better Tomorrow"
|
DootDoot
Forty-Nine Fedayeen
Minmatar Republic
112
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Posted - 2013.10.28 18:36:00 -
[75] - Quote
ReGnYuM wrote:Can we get a dev response please.
...You know, seeing how FG sniping is plaguing your Flagship Gamemode
I'd even settle for mintchip consoling the community on a situation she has no idea about. |
Kain Spero
MoIden Heath PoIice Department
EoN.
2183
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 19:09:00 -
[76] - Quote
The tower camping in PC has gotten to pretty epidemic levels. I much preferred the glory days of forge gunning on the ground.
What we have I think is a perfect storm of map design issues, the ridiculously short range of most of the weapons in Dust, and aspects of the forge that could stand to be tweaked in terms of the splash.
The fences on the Orbital cannon map aren't high enough and the gaps between plates are too large to be truly effective. I would actually be fine with the tall towers having a kill zone like some of the tall towers on the new sockets (power exhaust or what have you). Probably one of the biggest issues is the exposed consoles and how one tower position can cover the skies and multiple objectives. There should be an element of vertical play to the game, but it has to be balanced.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
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Zatara Rought
MoIden Heath PoIice Department
EoN.
1433
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 19:30:00 -
[77] - Quote
Kain Spero wrote:The tower camping in PC has gotten to pretty epidemic levels. I much preferred the glory days of forge gunning on the ground.
What we have I think is a perfect storm of map design issues, the ridiculously short range of most of the weapons in Dust, and aspects of the forge that could stand to be tweaked in terms of the splash.
The fences on the Orbital cannon map aren't high enough and the gaps between plates are too large to be truly effective. I would actually be fine with the tall towers having a kill zone like some of the tall towers on the new sockets (power exhaust or what have you). Probably one of the biggest issues is the exposed consoles and how one tower position can cover the skies and multiple objectives. There should be an element of vertical play to the game, but it has to be balanced.
BANG BANG! |
Zaria Min Deir
Ancient Exiles
207
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 19:42:00 -
[78] - Quote
Bethhy wrote:CCP ninja changed forges and made this problem.
When firing a Forge gun previously before all this mess was vastly different.
Firing a forge gun previously there was always some variation where the charge would go in the large reticule a forge gun has.
This allowed for the forge gun to be used to hit large targets with good accuracy... A.K.A tanks... and dropships that didn't make themself's tiny.
However sniping infantry with the charge never going to the same spot in the reticule... was much like rolling the dice... it took a bit of skill and as much luck to sniper infantry with a forge gun.
Made it also hard to reliably take out a good DS pilot... solo
This. Changing the accuracy of the forge gun so drastically is the reason they are so bloody effective now. A good forge gunner could guard a point somewhat reliably before, relying on the splash damage, but it wasn't idiot proof. Now? Well...
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Slag Emberforge
Immortal Retribution
96
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 19:44:00 -
[79] - Quote
Wrrrrrrrrrrrr .. Blarrrrp.
I have counter sniped rooftop forgers with both standard and assault variants, it's considerably easier with standard. It can be done.
The fix that would make everyone happy, put a splash radius decrease by range, over 100m? 1/2 splash radius, 200m? 1/4 300? No splash.
Just an idea, I am all for forge guns and even FG sniping, but honestly of rather it actually be sniping, not spamming. |
Skihids
Bullet Cluster
Legacy Rising
2355
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 20:10:00 -
[80] - Quote
The FG is a short barrel hip fired turret.
It's got more damage than a large railgun and better splash than a missle that's designed for AoE.
Any short barrel weapon should suffer from increased dispersion. It's simple physics.
The HAV should get more accuracy than the FG for the burden of carrying around an extra 15 feet of gun.
Long range is fine, it's a railgun after all, but the accuracy is insane. It's the sawed off shotgun of the railgun family, yet anyone who can place a dot on the center of his display can snipe downt to the pixel level.
Now the FG should have some splash. Any large metal slug that strikes a surface is going to kick up some debris. But it shoulldn't have more splash damage than a misslie expressly designed to explode shrapnel in all directions to kill infantry.
The FG should have dispersion re-introduced. Not so much that you can't hit the broad side of a tank at 100m, but enough that you are more than likely going to miss infantry. Lower the splash radius enough that that miss won't compensate for the miss and we will have a viable weapon that isn't perfectly good at everything. |
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Slag Emberforge
Immortal Retribution
99
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Posted - 2013.10.28 20:18:00 -
[81] - Quote
Skihids wrote:
The FG should have dispersion re-introduced. Not so much that you can't hit the broad side of a tank at 100m, but enough that you are more than likely going to miss infantry. Lower the splash radius enough that that miss won't compensate for the miss and we will have a viable weapon that isn't perfectly good at everything.
Perfectly good at everything.. CQC/medium range/open fields/flat elevation? Nope, none of those things. I am all for a change but the accuracy (especially during prof 1-3) that really appealed to me, assault variants need looked at, I think if they could find a balance between standard FGs and assaults, then the infantry issue would resolve itself.
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Skihids
Bullet Cluster
Legacy Rising
2355
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 20:29:00 -
[82] - Quote
Slag Emberforge wrote:Skihids wrote:
The FG should have dispersion re-introduced. Not so much that you can't hit the broad side of a tank at 100m, but enough that you are more than likely going to miss infantry. Lower the splash radius enough that that miss won't compensate for the miss and we will have a viable weapon that isn't perfectly good at everything.
Perfectly good at everything.. CQC/medium range/open fields/flat elevation? Nope, none of those things. I am all for a change but the accuracy (especially during prof 1-3) that really appealed to me, assault variants need looked at, I think if they could find a balance between standard FGs and assaults, then the infantry issue would resolve itself.
It's a hip-fire OHK sniper rifle with splash. Of course it's good at everything.
A sniper rifle can OHK in CQC, but good luck trying. Hip-fire accuracy is crap and scoping in CQC is a sure way to gimp yourself. But the FG doesn't have to ADS to get its pixel level accuracy. It can pick off anyone coming up a ladder or around a corner, and it can snipe infantry 200m away.
Again, the FG is an extremely short barrel large rail turret. It shouldn't have pixel level accuracy at 200m. That should be reserved for the vehicle lugging around an extra 15 feet of barrel. |
Slag Emberforge
Immortal Retribution
99
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 20:46:00 -
[83] - Quote
I could be mistaken but I think the real truth Behind the rail turrets functionality is the fact that a operator of the turret does not have any investment because the Forge is tied to the heavy suit and is a completely different scenario.
If you are trying to apply real-world mechanics this game you are mistaken as it has been said before the developers don't care about real world mechanic they care about gameplay balance, now with that said, turrets are low investment as they can take a high amount of abuse and you can still leave them at any time with a heavy suit you cannot do that. |
Canari Elphus
Pro Hic Immortalis
732
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 20:58:00 -
[84] - Quote
Slag Emberforge wrote:I could be mistaken but I think the real truth Behind the rail turrets functionality is the fact that a operator of the turret does not have any investment because the Forge is tied to the heavy suit and is a completely different scenario.
If you are trying to apply real-world mechanics this game you are mistaken as it has been said before the developers don't care about real world mechanic they care about gameplay balance, now with that said, turrets are low investment as they can take a high amount of abuse and you can still leave them at any time with a heavy suit you cannot do that.
He is talking about a tank mounted rail turret which is a huge investment. If you bring back the old dispersion mechanics the forge would still be quite useful as AV and area denial while not taking the place of a sniper.
I remember that Syn used to have a very good strategy involving snipers as field commanders before the whole Forge mess. That is what this game should be like, not playing whack-a-mole with a pinpoint long range AOE weapon.
Proud Sponsor of the United Light-pole Defense Fund. "Protecting Our Skies For A Better Tomorrow"
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IMMORTAL WAR HERO
BAD SANTA'S SCHOOL 4 SCOUNDRELS
62
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Posted - 2013.10.28 21:12:00 -
[85] - Quote
The Attorney General wrote:Canari Elphus wrote:
Actually, I think you guys got it from us and we got the tactic from Zion
I can confirm that Zion used rooftop forges from Day One of PC. Always fight from the top down, especially when once you get there, the enemy will find it almost impossible to get up there to counter you.
zion was garbage day 1 tho |
IMMORTAL WAR HERO
BAD SANTA'S SCHOOL 4 SCOUNDRELS
62
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Posted - 2013.10.28 21:16:00 -
[86] - Quote
Cass Caul wrote:Just saying, I'm pretty good at taking those roof-forgers out. yet I haven't been sniper in PC for the entire lifetime of MHPD
ur mhpd?????? -_____- says namtar elite |
Bethhy
Ancient Exiles
231
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 21:20:00 -
[87] - Quote
IMMORTAL WAR HERO wrote:The Attorney General wrote:Canari Elphus wrote:
Actually, I think you guys got it from us and we got the tactic from Zion
I can confirm that Zion used rooftop forges from Day One of PC. Always fight from the top down, especially when once you get there, the enemy will find it almost impossible to get up there to counter you. zion was garbage day 1 tho
I never did understand why... They had an amazing talent pool. |
Skihids
Bullet Cluster
Legacy Rising
2355
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 21:36:00 -
[88] - Quote
Slag Emberforge wrote:I could be mistaken but I think the real truth Behind the rail turrets functionality is the fact that a operator of the turret does not have any investment because the Forge is tied to the heavy suit and is a completely different scenario.
If you are trying to apply real-world mechanics this game you are mistaken as it has been said before the developers don't care about real world mechanic they care about gameplay balance, now with that said, turrets are low investment as they can take a high amount of abuse and you can still leave them at any time with a heavy suit you cannot do that.
I'm talking about the HAV Heavy Railgun turret.
And I'm advocating gameplay balance with a side of real world mechanics as an explanation for that balance.
It's a game breaking imbalance for the hip-fire OHK FG to have pixel level accuracy out to its maximum range. |
KING CHECKMATE
AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS
2135
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 21:39:00 -
[89] - Quote
Zatara Rought wrote:So...if you haven't heard I've been playing some pretty talented ringer team from OH and AE. Individually the corps are pretty strong, but together, damn that's a sexy combination. One thing I've noticed since beginning our back and forth has been an adjustment we've had to make to control the towers or tall buildings. Which is fine, we get them now with my handy dandy dropship but let me tell ya...before when I'd get to the city, man they'd spam so many links and forges you simply cannot in any capacity stop them from forging almost any vehicle you spawn in addition to them being able to deny many points (I had no clue they could deny A on the bridge maps from tall buildings on home points with the large splash of the mighty zeus gun) and own city infantry on most maps. Prior to this we strived to "contain" them with snipers, but damn, rather have them sniping our forges than dealing with the alternative. Anyone else recognize this as the definitive strategy they encounter?
MAPS in Dust are broken.
In any game, an area that is not acessible by BOTH teams is a BROKEN area; meaning it shouldnt exist.
You might say that with a DS you can get anywhere BUT after the ''enemy'' reaches a RooF,as OP said, getting back up their is a waste of ISK,time,clones and usually the whole match.
The thing is,those high areas like in Line Harvest should be=
a) REMOVED
b) With stairs so ANYONE can reach them without the need of a DS
my 0.02 ISK
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Leither Yiltron
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
749
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 21:47:00 -
[90] - Quote
Zatara Rought wrote:
Anyone else recognize this as the definitive strategy they encounter?
Literally since May. What's sad is that I don't think CCP even realize how big of a problem this is for PC matches. |
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