Don't play so recklessly and set a limit on how many adv your willing to lose

I also discount the vibrancy of the secondary market for officer gear and FW variants of weapons and gear.

1) most people don't run and can't afford to run a ton of proto very often.

2) the people who can are good enough that they won't burn through it enough to create a market vibrant enough to support 1000s of players

If everybody was rich, what would be the point to being rich hmmmm

People will always want officer stuff
Especially for pc or to stockpile for some awesome event
Whether it be sell or use for event, because people use a pot more good stuf for good events

So 6 ADV suits is too reckless? How many would be considered ideal?

And how fun is that?

18-6 with 2000 WP would be considered a decent match by any stretch

Don't play so recklessly and set a limit on how many adv your willing to lose

How much will they want, how will they afford it? By playing passively and grinding in cheap suits?

Or are you talking about guys like Regnum who don't use it, don't need to use it, and wouldn't have to buy enough of it to help you turn a profit in FW.

I've only seen one Thale in PC in nearly 100 PC matches. Never seen any other officer weapons.

If you want to make isk, run cheap fits.

If you want to perform better in a meaningless pub match, run your expensive fits. Just don't complain that you didn't make a profit.

18-6 with std gear is good
18-3 with adv
18-0 with proto

An old eve saying comes to mind, well 2
"Don't run what you can't afford to lose"
And
" welcome to new eden"

Its different for me though. I used to hit the dirt with boots on the ground but now I tank.

Any and all of my tank fits cost more than the ISK play out for any game mode besides PC. I am gambling in tanking.

1M+ ISK investment, I can

1.) Roll out and play well keeping my tank alive and killing a lot of people.
2.) Hide in the Redline

or 3.) Tank is destroyed and I lose 550+ K ISK.

SO.... Hide or Die.... or Kill on a rampage.... or simply not call in for my own personal boredom.... what shall I do?

Woah no need to be philisophical... want some tears?

If you want to make isk, run cheap fits.

If you want to perform better in a meaningless pub match, run your expensive fits. Just don't complain that you didn't make a profit.

How many people run a 3.0 KDR in standard gear? Very few, you are proving my point.

How many people run a 3.0 KDR in standard gear? Very few, you are proving my point.

This is just going to make Pub Stomping 10x worse than it is right now and in turn lead to more people quitting the game.

The laws of supply and demand my friend
If people don't want to use them the prices will drop till someone does
Or rise accordingly

The economy conforms to the people in it.

If everybody was rich, what would be the point to being rich hmmmm

The payout is too low, its crazy. The only way to make money is to DOMINATE or hang out in the red line (pubs). Which favors great players, but leaves people with ~1.0 kdr forced into usuing subpar (standard) gear to even break even.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. It seems crazy that so many people are not only okay with it, but seem to cherish it.

You can go positive in ADV...

My ADV fits cost 30k, so I can die like 6 times and go positive.

What's your issue?

The reason I bring this up is that I see an ISK sink in FW will lead to an even bigger incentive to play passive in pub matches as people grind for ISK to support their FW habit.

This is such utter crap. " the only way to make money...". You obv don't know ' the only way'. All you people want to do is advocate for Your Preferred Way.

Keep isk valuable. Make loss hurt. Make profitability matter. Can't run proto in pubs and be profitable? Good. Find another way to play or go broke.

I'm not complaining about an individual match, I'm talking about the economics of Dust.


If you were a real Merc, would you be willing to work if you could field mid level gear for finishing at the top of the match and making less than a guy who contributed zero on the losing side?

More than likely you'd just sit in the redline too, but because we are playing a video game many people foolishly decide to participate in winning the match.

Okay, I'll build play in my BPO sniper suit. That'll be more fun for everyone right?

Do you believe that going earning 2000 WP and winning a match while losing 6 ADV suits which is well within the norm for the guy at the top of the leaderboard should profit LESS than that guy at the bottom of the leaderboard with 50 WP and a 0-0?

This is the reality and I find it hard to believe that people are actually okay with this.

First, i was talking about economics. Advance gear is apparently too expensive for someone of your caliber to run profitably.

Second, don't reference real life for a game scenario. If I was a REAL merc, I wouldn't be competing in a meaningless match where people die. Scoreboards and money tend to lose their value when you're really dead.

Third, I always run standard/militia fits, spend majority of my time outside the redline and normally rank among the top ten on my team. It is not foolish to play a competitive game to win. It is however stupid to bother playing a competitive game with no intention of winning.

I'll tell you what I believe in. I believe in a balanced game that, even for the majority of people that choose to slog through pub stomps and suck at fps games still turns out somehow to be fun and compelling to play. And I don't believe in providing the pub stomping minority with imbalances payouts to fund thier prototype stomping ways. I would like a game where the gear you choose to use and lose comes with a palpable cost. And that cost should always, regardless of your skill, be a serious consideration.

And I further don't believe in creating a sandbox FPSMMO game with a weak ass economy. And having any MMO with out proper wealth sinks and income/ inflation controls leads to an I balanced game.

Learn to make isk with basic gear. Or adv gear or prototype. But keep isk and cost a very important part of dust. It's damn near the only hope this game has left.

I laid out a scenario in the OP where I would likely earn 350K ISK and for a net gain of 110K which isn't bad. My problem is that the guy at the bottom with 50 WP probably earned 150K.

What would be so bad about the guy at the top earning more and the guy not generating any WP not getting much at all?

The dude at the bottom would more than likely try to generate some WP and in the process create a more fun gaming experience for everyone involved if it were the only way for him to earn any ISK.

I have always had an issue with this, but I see MORE people playing passively in pubs to grind ISK so they go earn LP in FW. Those same guys will likely do the same thing in FW because there isn't any inecentive to win or perform better there either.

This isn't a difficult concept to wrap your head around. I want to see more incentive to play hard and I want to see people who don't penalized. In other words I want my favorite video game to be fun. I don't want to have to grind in crap gear and I don't want to move along the redline looking for red dots like a tiger in a cage.

So judging by the responses here. Everybody but me runs a 3.0 KDR in pubs running standard gear.

It's weird because I play a lot and I see people going sub 2.0 and a lot of negative.

When do you guys play? And why aren't you guys holding a bunch of districts in PC?

Lol, I made a mistake thinking I could get some sensible talk on the forums.

I laid out a scenario in the OP where I would likely earn 350K ISK and for a net gain of 110K which isn't bad. My problem is that the guy at the bottom with 50 WP probably earned 150K.

What would be so bad about the guy at the top earning more and the guy not generating any WP not getting much at all?

The dude at the bottom would more than likely try to generate some WP and in the process create a more fun gaming experience for everyone involved if it were the only way for him to earn any ISK.

I have always had an issue with this, but I see MORE people playing passively in pubs to grind ISK so they go earn LP in FW. Those same guys will likely do the same thing in FW because there isn't any inecentive to win or perform better there either.

This isn't a difficult concept to wrap your head around. I want to see more incentive to play hard and I want to see people who don't penalized. In other words I want my favorite video game to be fun. I don't want to have to grind in crap gear and I don't want to move along the redline looking for red dots like a tiger in a cage.

Dude, your inner ******* is showing.
What do you mean,"the dude at the bottom would more than li,ely TRY to generate some WP"? Such a jerk.

We are trying. And we are trying to have fun trying. What exactly do you think will motivate a player who happens to find himself at the bottom of every score board to keep playing? Giving him the short end of the financial stick in order that you can use more expensive gear to kill him faster?

So 6 ADV suits is too reckless? How many would be considered ideal?

And how fun is that?

18-6 with 2000 WP would be considered a decent match by any stretch

18:6 is a total disaster, if you only used ADV gear.
This means you died in 1 of 4 encounters, which you choose to fight. Terrible.

I always thought the game was adapted his isk reward in proportion to the total WP.
And I think a reward for mere participation is bullshit.

Go make your money ! Work in New Eden is serious business ! (sorry for my english)

We don't fight for money like real mercenaries do, rather we pay money for the privilege of fighting.

There are no luxury goods or vacations to buy with our wages, only weapons to be used to fight with.
There is no cost of living, we could just park ourselves in quarters and "live" for nothing.
There is nothing to beyond war toys to spend our fortunes on, so what is our motivation to fight?

We pay for the privilege of earning experience so we get better at fighting.
We fight for entertainment. It's an end in itself.

Realistic ISK sinks would mimic real life money sinks, stuff you want unrelated to going to work.

We don't fight for money like real mercenaries do, rather we pay money for the privilege of fighting.

There are no luxury goods or vacations to buy with our wages, only weapons to be used to fight with.
There is no cost of living, we could just park ourselves in quarters and "live" for nothing.
There is nothing to beyond war toys to spend our fortunes on, so what is our motivation to fight?

We pay for the privilege of earning experience so we get better at fighting.
We fight for entertainment. It's an end in itself.

Realistic ISK sinks would mimic real life money sinks, stuff you want unrelated to going to work.

Lol, nice math.

And I'll be posting the KDRs of all these bad asses in this thread that claim 3.0 is terrible

This is exactly what I'm talking about. It seems crazy that so many people are not only okay with it, but seem to cherish it.

18:6 is a total disaster, if you only used ADV gear.
This means you died in 1 of 4 encounters, which you choose to fight. Terrible.

You've proved my point again. All this talk of profiting from LP gear in the secondary market, how if the demand isn't that high? Remember the gear will cost ISK in addition to LP.

If you factor in ISK lost during FW battles how many of these things do you plan on selling?

... um, 1 in 3. If you're going to be a douchebag, at least try to be right.

In any case, he's doing hell of a lot better than me, and in any case, if you haven't noticed...

New Eden is not a place for KD/R brats. It's a place for scheming geniuses, dastardly minds with dirty, conniving plots up their sleeves, where life isn't fair, and cults filled with tear-drinking insomniacs stomp your paper target wearing excuse for advanced gear in their Proto gear with Complex kit. Harden. The f**k. Up. Oh... and stop being a try hard.

-Irish

Lol, nice math.

And I'll be posting the KDRs of all these bad asses in this thread that claim 3.0 is terrible

the only effective counter is to field proto gear yourself, and their stats are out of proportion compared to everything else, and given the sheer number of people around running proto, soon it's going to be proto and nothing else, it already is in PC if you actually want to win the battle, and you'll run into at least 1 proto player in any given pub match. What do you think it will be like for new players a year down the line, when a large proportion of the player base is running proto gear?

Weird post, I'd buy some hookers and blow for my character, but he's stuck in a video game.

So do think mere participation should be rewarded so heavily?

What if FW is filled with 5-10 snipers and tower forgers on each side over and over again?

If everybody was rich, what would be the point to being rich hmmmm

18-6 with std gear is good
18-3 with adv
18-0 with proto

An old eve saying comes to mind, well 2
"Don't run what you can't afford to lose"
And
" welcome to new eden"

... um, 1 in 3. If you're going to be a douchebag, at least try to be right.

In any case, he's doing hell of a lot better than me, and in any case, if you haven't noticed...

New Eden is not a place for KD/R brats. It's a place for scheming geniuses, dastardly minds with dirty, conniving plots up their sleeves, where life isn't fair, and cults filled with tear-drinking insomniacs stomp your paper target wearing excuse for advanced gear in their Proto gear with Complex kit. Harden. The f**k. Up. Oh... and stop being a try hard.

-Irish

I ran a STD scout suit just now and went 6/6. I only killed Proto and advanced suits(cause that's all the other team was running)

I killed the same guy twice, it was his only 2 deaths.

I got 280,000 isk after taxes, my suit cost 5,000 isk so my total profit was 250,000 isk. The guy I killed twice probably only made 200,000-250,000 isk because it was a fast match and I had only random MLT and STD blubies on my team.

tl;dr I made 250,000 in STD gear and that guy in proto gear might have lost 50,000 isk or maybe just broke even.

LoL ... Molon Lame. guy tries to cover his Molo Lame friend and can't even do math. Take a rope.

I normally run a 50k-ish ADV only Logi suit. KDR is 1.38 currently. I steadily gain ISK and hover around 90-100 million ISK as I tend to give out chunks of 5 million to people I recruit into my corp *shrug*.

I only swap into suits costing less than 10k ISK when I have died 4+ times and or it is obvious my team is going to lose.

So yes I make ISK running ADV normally with a low KDR.

It's weird because every guy that comments on the forums uses nothing but standard gear. They usually go at least 3.0 and all they ever face is proto, does anybody else find this unbelievable?

Also, I want someone to point out where I've said I don't agree that it should be risky to bring out advanced gear, but my OP has asked at what point should it be possible to profit in ADV gear?

The reality of the situation is that people in standard gear are NOT going 3.0 in pubs in mass numbers, this is absurd and utter bullshit. There are people that can, but it's very far from the norm. Please do not continue to argue otherwise. You only see a handful of people running 3.0 in a given match, the ones who do are usually stomping on people with a Duvalle.

So let's try to bring this back to reality.

The average KDR per match is <= 1.0 by definition.

If you get a kill someone else gets a death, though someone can kill himself to add additional deaths.


This isn't Lake Woebegone where everyone is above average and not everyone can run above 1.0.
If anyone goes 2:1 someone else does worse than break even.

When you say that the average person should go above 1.0 in STD gear you clearly wrong because it is impossible.
That means the person is running with no gear advantage that separates him from anyone else.

If we split the player base in a match between STD, ADV, and PROTO, then you can have higher tiers with an average > 1.0 if you allow the lower tiers to have an average < 1.0.

This assumes an equal gun game, and that's likely where the posters logic failed. His "average" player is probably "an average of me and my elite friends" and not an average of all players. We tend to judge averages based on the self selected groups we associate with.

Reduce ISK pay out by 20% in public matches
Add 50% winner's bonus
???
Profit!

The only case where people will keep striving for the win is where the win actually pays out more than the loss. That only occurs in PC at current.

In the current model of Pub and FW the only way to really win a match on a personal level is to spend less than you earn. The guy that earns less WP also earn less SP.

I agree that there should be multipliers for winning, such as x2 SP and X1.5 ISK. You could base ISK payout on WP, which is a more logical approach, but that is not how the game is right now. Also BPOs add to the amount of ISK being generated at no risk more in my opinion than the people that are AFKing or finishing with 0 WP, and we all can see the QQ caused when it sounded like they were being removed.

If you take a quick look Dustcharts.com and look at the corps and alliance you can see how much all the current clone stockpiles are worth to each group. That amount of ISK is entirely why there need to be ISK sinks. Leither also talked about this in his blog at hsandc.blogspot.com and the reality is that right now there is a need for ISK sinks for many of them.

Thank GOD we finally have a sensible person here.

This gives incentive to play harder. More people playing harder in leads to more FUN.

It's a difficult concept apparently.

Lack of a winner's bonus is killing pubs in some ways imo. You have one of three play styles emerge far too often when you don't give the players any incentive to win.

1. KDR tryhards get their shiniest proto suit out and very careful try to farm MLT newbies while staying far enough back with easily accessible ways of escape. These guys tend to stick to ambush (like I did, I'll admit I play JUST like this) however, in skirmish these guys will stay near objectives so as to farm them but don't rally care about winning or losing. I never cared if my team won in a pub match.

2. BPO ISK Farmers. These guys don't care about winning or losing and only about ISK Destroyed : ISK Lost... a stat that is infinitely more meaningless than KDR with the existence of BPOs. These guys farm hundreds of millions of ISK for... well... no reason.

3. Redline Snipers. Guys who don't want their KDR ruined or to lose ISK in a battle they know they can't win so they sit in a well protected redline and snipe for whatever couple points they can.

All three of these lead more to 'pubstomping' than most people are probably willing to admit.

A substantial ISK bonus for winning has people playing for the win, while also trying to manage their wallet (and deciding which suits they wanna use at which times). Things like redline sniping are also a symptom of welfare SP, but that system is in place because the WP in this game is very very incomplete and poorly balanced.

Lack of a winner's bonus is killing pubs in some ways imo. You have one of three play styles emerge far too often when you don't give the players any incentive to win.

1. KDR tryhards get their shiniest proto suit out and very careful try to farm MLT newbies while staying far enough back with easily accessible ways of escape. These guys tend to stick to ambush (like I did, I'll admit I play JUST like this) however, in skirmish these guys will stay near objectives so as to farm them but don't rally care about winning or losing. I never cared if my team won in a pub match.

2. BPO ISK Farmers. These guys don't care about winning or losing and only about ISK Destroyed : ISK Lost... a stat that is infinitely more meaningless than KDR with the existence of BPOs. These guys farm hundreds of millions of ISK for... well... no reason.

3. Redline Snipers. Guys who don't want their KDR ruined or to lose ISK in a battle they know they can't win so they sit in a well protected redline and snipe for whatever couple points they can.

All three of these lead more to 'pubstomping' than most people are probably willing to admit.

A substantial ISK bonus for winning has people playing for the win, while also trying to manage their wallet (and deciding which suits they wanna use at which times). Things like redline sniping are also a symptom of welfare SP, but that system is in place because the WP in this game is very very incomplete and poorly balanced.

Something nobody had mentioned yep is using better gear will get you more WP and therefore SP in the same timeframe. They are paying to cap quicker/ farm their 1000 WPs every game.

I often throw money at a win, but I can do that because I've got a fat wallet from the Uprising buyback. Not everyone has that option.

As the OP said, DUST shouldn't contain ISK sinks for DUST players.

Rather DUST should be a huge ISK sink for EVE pilots. That's what CCP originally wanted for DUST.

Let's have EVE pilots hire DUST mercs for control of the ground. If they really want a win they will pay for us to run all proto, and if they want to be cheap we can run our cheap fittings. You get what you pay for.

You also get paid for your performance. All mercs get a basic fee for joining battle, but there could be a substantial winning bonus set by the contract maker. We'll get balance through supply and demand. We could get some really great battles if both sides in EVE are putting up huge success bonuses.

But until that time, which appears to be years away. We need to find a way to incentivize playing hard and performing well.

Most people here that are attempting to post in disagreement with me are proving my point.

People like to throw out pub matches are pointless, but it's what we do 99% of the time in Dust. Thus making the pointless statement ridiculous beyond measure. It's like saying oxygen is pointless to breathing. We have to grind in Dust, it's part of the deal. Why not make the grinding more FUN, why not encourage fierce battles?

If advanced and proto gear scare people away from this, then lets push for pub match modes that only allow certain tiers of gear.

You can't even do math, nor can your Molo Lame mate. Don't talk about numbers.

You can't even do math, nor can your Molo Lame mate. Don't talk about numbers.

The fundamental problem is that our "job" is really our hobby and we get paid in the ability to do our job better.

We fight for fun, it's an end in itself. We don't have anything to spend the money on other than more and better equipment to better in match.

Therefore people have the incentive to be careful with their money. If they have little they "play scared" and will naturally shift to a loss averse strategy. That's either cheap fittings or hiding in the redline. Neither make for great fights, though the latter is the worst.

Those that have a fat wallet can play to win, but those who don't are constrained. It's a fact that people are more affected by potential loss than potential gain, so rather than doubling down for a win you would likely see an even faster switch to loss conservation strategy.

I'm not sure you can fix that as long as all the money is coming from DUST.

Go back and read Zdub's post

You are missing the point. Those with a fat wallet are still not encouraged to win. They are only encouraged to queue into the battle and move around a little bit to avoid getting kicked. That's it.

@ Thor Odins Son:

Zeffron is a better God.

K.

You are lying about not being profitable at Advanced fittings.

Heres why:
Not every game is 18 kills and six deaths.

Most are 10 to 20 kills and LESS than 6 deaths.

So you end up makeing a PROFIT and even if you remove from that a tiny ISK loss when you get a rare 6 death or more game you still end up makeing a PROFIT.

Every one of my fits has the cost, i.e. Logi ammar GEK SMG Hacker 34K, Minmatar sault CBR SMG FAST 39K, min scout min shotG scan fast 8K, militia heavy forge smg 10K........et all. every suit be it Mk-0 Gk-0 or Ak-0 etc. has a price tag at the end.

I'm saying that a fat wallet allows you to play for the win without specific encouragement from the game.

I do it just because I like to win. It's simply more fun for me to pull a win out of a loss and that makes playing worth it.

So I'll sacrifice a handful of very expensive logi fits to lay down more uplinks and ammo and triage hives to get my team back inot the battle and take the objective (mostly in Domination).

I do it because sitting in the redline is real bore.

Then when my team does well by themselves and I don't have to work so hard I make up for it and put the money back in my wallet.

going on and on about 18-6 with 2k warpoints and winning but still losing isk really just hurts your own cause here man, it makes you come off as a guy who's just butthurt that this one match sorta went against him, and invites all the "don't fly wat you can't afford to lose" lines that we've NOT heard a million ******* times by now because those people are totally clever and original and handsome.


that being said, it IS often true that the most profitable way to play the game, is to not play the game. and i don't see the changes to faction warfare helping that at all. even if we have a secondary market by then, which we won't, who's gonna buy the stuff? the guys sniping from behind the redline?

if most people already can't afford prototype gear, what makes anyone think people will be able to afford faction gear? especially ENOUGH faction gear to pay for you being in faction warfare?


the games entire reward structure is kinda ****** up when you think about it. the very bottom of the ladder is: PVP. which is in and of itself, an isk sink. one way or another ****'s getting destroyed. value is being removed from the game. if we're lucky we'll make enough isk to cover that loss, but unless you're exceptionally good, or exceptionally an ******* who hides behind the redlne, you're guaranteed to lose SOMETHING.

hell, i'll even walk it back, i'm willing to accept that a lot of those redline snipers aren't trying to be assholes, they're just broke, or know they will go broke if they do anything else. they're doing dusts equivalent of lvl 1 missions or hi-sec veldspar mining. which is pretty ****** isn't it? why don't we have anything better for them to do?

the more i think about this the more i think dust needs PvE before another isk sink.

Dont get too hopeful, PvE will be another ISK sink as well. The only thing that will generate ISK would be if they added industry.

Steps to making money without AFK'ing and still have fun in the game
- Dont try to be a hero. Its just as important to judge your teammates abilities as it is your enemies. If you team is crap, dont waste your suits on them.
- Unless you have good gun game, do not run around outside of the blob. I get a lot of my kills by roving around the perimeter picking off tryhards who try to solo cap objectives. There is a reason for the phrase 'strength in numbers'
- Learn when to retreat. I have seen so many fools run into a situation, see that they are heavily disadvantaged and decide to go out in a blaze of glory. Here is a hint: Even if you kill one of the guys you just ran into, you will lose money by getting killed. Run away, regroup and reengage when you are at an advantage.

You are probably right about PvE, but one can only hope. I picture mission running like Eve with PvE that is leveled for more risk and higher payouts.

Your tips for playing smarter are true and good advice, it really depends on my level of impairment.

That explains why you suicided while closing the gap between your MD and me recently. Haha, it does help the sting of blahberries.