Weird post, I'd buy some hookers and blow for my character, but he's stuck in a video game.

So do think mere participation should be rewarded so heavily?

What if FW is filled with 5-10 snipers and tower forgers on each side over and over again?

If everybody was rich, what would be the point to being rich hmmmm

18-6 with std gear is good
18-3 with adv
18-0 with proto

An old eve saying comes to mind, well 2
"Don't run what you can't afford to lose"
And
" welcome to new eden"

... um, 1 in 3. If you're going to be a douchebag, at least try to be right.

In any case, he's doing hell of a lot better than me, and in any case, if you haven't noticed...

New Eden is not a place for KD/R brats. It's a place for scheming geniuses, dastardly minds with dirty, conniving plots up their sleeves, where life isn't fair, and cults filled with tear-drinking insomniacs stomp your paper target wearing excuse for advanced gear in their Proto gear with Complex kit. Harden. The f**k. Up. Oh... and stop being a try hard.

-Irish

I ran a STD scout suit just now and went 6/6. I only killed Proto and advanced suits(cause that's all the other team was running)

I killed the same guy twice, it was his only 2 deaths.

I got 280,000 isk after taxes, my suit cost 5,000 isk so my total profit was 250,000 isk. The guy I killed twice probably only made 200,000-250,000 isk because it was a fast match and I had only random MLT and STD blubies on my team.

tl;dr I made 250,000 in STD gear and that guy in proto gear might have lost 50,000 isk or maybe just broke even.

LoL ... Molon Lame. guy tries to cover his Molo Lame friend and can't even do math. Take a rope.

I normally run a 50k-ish ADV only Logi suit. KDR is 1.38 currently. I steadily gain ISK and hover around 90-100 million ISK as I tend to give out chunks of 5 million to people I recruit into my corp *shrug*.

I only swap into suits costing less than 10k ISK when I have died 4+ times and or it is obvious my team is going to lose.

So yes I make ISK running ADV normally with a low KDR.

It's weird because every guy that comments on the forums uses nothing but standard gear. They usually go at least 3.0 and all they ever face is proto, does anybody else find this unbelievable?

Also, I want someone to point out where I've said I don't agree that it should be risky to bring out advanced gear, but my OP has asked at what point should it be possible to profit in ADV gear?

The reality of the situation is that people in standard gear are NOT going 3.0 in pubs in mass numbers, this is absurd and utter bullshit. There are people that can, but it's very far from the norm. Please do not continue to argue otherwise. You only see a handful of people running 3.0 in a given match, the ones who do are usually stomping on people with a Duvalle.

So let's try to bring this back to reality.

The average KDR per match is <= 1.0 by definition.

If you get a kill someone else gets a death, though someone can kill himself to add additional deaths.


This isn't Lake Woebegone where everyone is above average and not everyone can run above 1.0.
If anyone goes 2:1 someone else does worse than break even.

When you say that the average person should go above 1.0 in STD gear you clearly wrong because it is impossible.
That means the person is running with no gear advantage that separates him from anyone else.

If we split the player base in a match between STD, ADV, and PROTO, then you can have higher tiers with an average > 1.0 if you allow the lower tiers to have an average < 1.0.

This assumes an equal gun game, and that's likely where the posters logic failed. His "average" player is probably "an average of me and my elite friends" and not an average of all players. We tend to judge averages based on the self selected groups we associate with.

Reduce ISK pay out by 20% in public matches
Add 50% winner's bonus
???
Profit!

The only case where people will keep striving for the win is where the win actually pays out more than the loss. That only occurs in PC at current.

In the current model of Pub and FW the only way to really win a match on a personal level is to spend less than you earn. The guy that earns less WP also earn less SP.

I agree that there should be multipliers for winning, such as x2 SP and X1.5 ISK. You could base ISK payout on WP, which is a more logical approach, but that is not how the game is right now. Also BPOs add to the amount of ISK being generated at no risk more in my opinion than the people that are AFKing or finishing with 0 WP, and we all can see the QQ caused when it sounded like they were being removed.

If you take a quick look Dustcharts.com and look at the corps and alliance you can see how much all the current clone stockpiles are worth to each group. That amount of ISK is entirely why there need to be ISK sinks. Leither also talked about this in his blog at hsandc.blogspot.com and the reality is that right now there is a need for ISK sinks for many of them.

Thank GOD we finally have a sensible person here.

This gives incentive to play harder. More people playing harder in leads to more FUN.

It's a difficult concept apparently.

Lack of a winner's bonus is killing pubs in some ways imo. You have one of three play styles emerge far too often when you don't give the players any incentive to win.

1. KDR tryhards get their shiniest proto suit out and very careful try to farm MLT newbies while staying far enough back with easily accessible ways of escape. These guys tend to stick to ambush (like I did, I'll admit I play JUST like this) however, in skirmish these guys will stay near objectives so as to farm them but don't rally care about winning or losing. I never cared if my team won in a pub match.

2. BPO ISK Farmers. These guys don't care about winning or losing and only about ISK Destroyed : ISK Lost... a stat that is infinitely more meaningless than KDR with the existence of BPOs. These guys farm hundreds of millions of ISK for... well... no reason.

3. Redline Snipers. Guys who don't want their KDR ruined or to lose ISK in a battle they know they can't win so they sit in a well protected redline and snipe for whatever couple points they can.

All three of these lead more to 'pubstomping' than most people are probably willing to admit.

A substantial ISK bonus for winning has people playing for the win, while also trying to manage their wallet (and deciding which suits they wanna use at which times). Things like redline sniping are also a symptom of welfare SP, but that system is in place because the WP in this game is very very incomplete and poorly balanced.

Lack of a winner's bonus is killing pubs in some ways imo. You have one of three play styles emerge far too often when you don't give the players any incentive to win.

1. KDR tryhards get their shiniest proto suit out and very careful try to farm MLT newbies while staying far enough back with easily accessible ways of escape. These guys tend to stick to ambush (like I did, I'll admit I play JUST like this) however, in skirmish these guys will stay near objectives so as to farm them but don't rally care about winning or losing. I never cared if my team won in a pub match.

2. BPO ISK Farmers. These guys don't care about winning or losing and only about ISK Destroyed : ISK Lost... a stat that is infinitely more meaningless than KDR with the existence of BPOs. These guys farm hundreds of millions of ISK for... well... no reason.

3. Redline Snipers. Guys who don't want their KDR ruined or to lose ISK in a battle they know they can't win so they sit in a well protected redline and snipe for whatever couple points they can.

All three of these lead more to 'pubstomping' than most people are probably willing to admit.

A substantial ISK bonus for winning has people playing for the win, while also trying to manage their wallet (and deciding which suits they wanna use at which times). Things like redline sniping are also a symptom of welfare SP, but that system is in place because the WP in this game is very very incomplete and poorly balanced.

Something nobody had mentioned yep is using better gear will get you more WP and therefore SP in the same timeframe. They are paying to cap quicker/ farm their 1000 WPs every game.

I often throw money at a win, but I can do that because I've got a fat wallet from the Uprising buyback. Not everyone has that option.

As the OP said, DUST shouldn't contain ISK sinks for DUST players.

Rather DUST should be a huge ISK sink for EVE pilots. That's what CCP originally wanted for DUST.

Let's have EVE pilots hire DUST mercs for control of the ground. If they really want a win they will pay for us to run all proto, and if they want to be cheap we can run our cheap fittings. You get what you pay for.

You also get paid for your performance. All mercs get a basic fee for joining battle, but there could be a substantial winning bonus set by the contract maker. We'll get balance through supply and demand. We could get some really great battles if both sides in EVE are putting up huge success bonuses.

But until that time, which appears to be years away. We need to find a way to incentivize playing hard and performing well.

Most people here that are attempting to post in disagreement with me are proving my point.

People like to throw out pub matches are pointless, but it's what we do 99% of the time in Dust. Thus making the pointless statement ridiculous beyond measure. It's like saying oxygen is pointless to breathing. We have to grind in Dust, it's part of the deal. Why not make the grinding more FUN, why not encourage fierce battles?

If advanced and proto gear scare people away from this, then lets push for pub match modes that only allow certain tiers of gear.

You can't even do math, nor can your Molo Lame mate. Don't talk about numbers.

You can't even do math, nor can your Molo Lame mate. Don't talk about numbers.