Apparently you don't understand the Fitting System. The core idea behind the system is that people can play how they like. And you want to reward players for using the "correct" suit?

This doesn't change fitting at all. It just makes it so you don't get optimal WP for playing a slayer logi. Think of it this way, would you rather have them nerf the stats on brick tanking logi suits, or just let assault players get better WP for doing the same thing?

Its pretty straight forward. I'm looking forward to the new WPs for a few different things. However I think the WP system could be a little mroe rewarding of intentional and tactical squad play than it already is.

The whole point of WP seems to have a few goals:

1) Somewhat comparatively distinguish quality players
2) Separate people into roles so they aren't all competing for the same WP 'pool' (killers vs. healers vs. hackers vs. AV)
3) Create system for evaluating 'merit pay'

What you could do to further refine these goals, is to assign WP bonuses to each suit type.

150WP
GÇóHAV Destruction (+35 heavy/commando)
100WP
GÇóHack (NULL Cannon) (+20 logistics)
GÇóLarge Installation Destruction (+25 heavy/commando)
75WP
GÇóDropship Destruction (+25 heavy/commando)
GÇóHeadshot (+25 scout)
50WP
GÇóKill (+20 for assaults/ +10 heavies)
GÇóHack (Installations) (+25 for logistics) (+10 for scout)
GÇó2nd Hack Assist (NULL Cannon) (+10 for logistics) (+10 for scout)
GÇóSupply Depot Destruction (+35 heavy/assault)
GÇóCRU Destruction (+40 heavy/assault)
GÇóTriage with Logistics LAV Inbuilt Repair Tool (+10 logistics)
40WP
GÇóLAV Destruction (+15 heavy/commando/assault)
35WP
GÇóGuardian (repairing someone when they get a kill) (+10 logistics)
GÇóVehicle Kill Assist (+10 assault only)
25WP
GÇóKill Assist (+10 assault/scout/heavy)
GÇó2nd Hack Assist (Installations)
GÇóTriage (Repairing someone for a certain length of time) (+5 logistics)
GÇóTeam Spawn (+10 scout)
GÇó3rd Hack Assist (NULL Cannon)
15 WP
GÇóScan kill assist (+15 scout)(+5 logistics)
12WP
GÇó3rd Hack Assist (Installations)
10WP
GÇóTeam Resupply (+5 logistics)

Squad commendations
GÇó20% bonus to defend order actions (30% bonus if squad leader is heavy/commando/logistics)
GÇó20% bonus to attack order actions (30% bonus if squad leader is scout/assault)
GÇó20% bonus to other actions

So you can see the point. You use WP to emphasize playing appropriate roles. You COULD run as an caldari logi with a brick tank, but going 25/0 as a logi will net you far less WP than going 25/0 as an assault.

Some of these would be effected after changing fittings no?

For instance, Lets say, I spawn in my squishy scout, run in fast hack a point, drop an uplink.

Then I switch out to a logi fit, drop a couple Hives, and fight the fist few that trickle in.

Then I switch to a Heavy for more defensive stopping power.

How would the uplinks and hives be treated after switching "roles"

This would also go a long way towards having people play the roles that CCP intends for suits. Which would reduce the number of nerfs for things.

I think DUST would be helped more by not having any extra benefits by running into narrow classes and builds. Players should be free to experiment without risk of losing WP (because of not obtaining some bonus).

Many suits already have fitting bonuses (such as Heat build up reduction on Amarr Assault) which gives a benefit to using certain items, but in no way punishes players for not using it.

By increasing WP gain for certain specs, you in effect punish every other suit who tries to perform a non-standard battle field role, even if they are competent at it.

Forcing narrow focus of a suit into a class defies the core concept of suit fitting, that you can adapt a suit to various combat scenarios. DUST should be working on making there be as many valid fitting possibilities as the can, so that players can do all sorts of unusual things, such as heavy snipers (I'd be more creative, but it's early), that isn't possible in other games. Don't diminish the ability for players to be creative by punishing WP gains on "non-class" actions.

..."Many suits already have fitting bonuses (such as Heat build up reduction on Amarr Assault) which gives a benefit to using certain items, but in no way punishes players for not using it. "...

This doesn't change fitting at all. It just makes it so you don't get optimal WP for playing a slayer logi. Think of it this way, would you rather have them nerf the stats on brick tanking logi suits, or just let assault players get better WP for doing the same thing?

I prefer CCP tweak the suit bonuses to make them more role specific rather than create arbitrary bonuses for certain actions in a suit.

Logi suits should get fitting cost reductions for equipment and assault suits should get bonuses to offensive capability (there are so many ways that can be done).

Then we don't have to track what suit fitting did what for rewards.

This doesn't change fitting at all. It just makes it so you don't get optimal WP for playing a slayer logi. Think of it this way, would you rather have them nerf the stats on brick tanking logi suits, or just let assault players get better WP for doing the same thing?

You make it sound like playing a slayer logi is wrong.

your stats rule out logi aver which is better than aver/assault assault suits need to stop caring about vehilces its logistics department. the role of guardian consists of logi av and tactical vehicle support( transporters scanners and such)

when i used to run ina a balanced tank av squad i would run heal as equally as av..a swarmer logi can do things that a forge gunner just cant ina balanced dust it requires both to effectively rampage. light av is supposed to naturally compliment heavy av and as heavy av is on HEAVY suits it only makes sense that light av be on LOGI'S as logi's naturally compliment heavies.

I think this is an awful Idea as a scout

looks like we would once again get the short end of the stick.

Dang dude!?! Why so pessimistic? Suggest something!! Don't JUST be critical? Have a little bit of imagination and contribute to the discussion. Where do YOU think the scout role fits in? I gave it a huge headshot buff. Who knows what other bonuses they are getting come 1.5. What if you could give bonuses for kills >100m that would be a sniper WP buff...

Do you seriously think scouts should be AS survivable as assaults/heavies/logis in brawling range, though? That's dumb if you do. I'm suggesting different roles for them. Making them get the BEST SP from uplinks and scans and assists could do a lot to boost their WP gain. I can get a LOT of WP from uplink spam. Also in 1.5 I think they are giving out WP for equipment destruction as well.

If everyone got something like +10 WP for equipment destruction and scouts got +20, that would be huge too.

IMO this is what is kind of ruining the game. When everyone wants every suit to be usable for every role. "My heavy is just too slow...my scout is just too weak...the logi has too many equipment slots...the assault should have as many slots as the logi...I can't armor tank my minmatar suit..." are all arguing for a vanilla game.

1) Somewhat comparatively distinguish quality players
2) Separate people into roles so they aren't all competing for the same WP 'pool' (killers vs. healers vs. hackers vs. AV)
3) Create system for evaluating 'merit pay'

I think it's an interesting idea.

To all who believe you're 'penalised' for not conforming to a role: you still get as much WP doing whatever the hell you do right now.

I repeat: Not penalised. No penalties apply.

Some just get bonuses.

Now the question is, do they deserve these bonuses? If we take what Mr. Hurin outlined as the goals of WP



then we can see that yes, those who play to these roles do deserve bonuses.

No one said you can't be a heavy sniper. But in the end, that heavy suit is better in the battlefield taking hits for the team. Therefore, why should the heavy not get bonuses for defending a point instead of sniping in the hills?

Far from limiting choices (I don't know how you guys got to that conclusion; the pessimism of these forums is really something), this system will simply give those who choose the 'main' roles a bonus. And over history, we've learnt that these roles became main roles BECAUSE they are most effective. So if someone is performing a job that is effective, deserves merit, requires skill and aids victory, why should they not receive a bonus?

Not to mention this is only the basic frame of the idea, and is applied only to dropsuits. What if the weapon affected the bonuses?

The current WP system encourages squads to try generate as much WP as possible, without consideration for tactics. Putting WP bonuses on certain actions, depending on the amount, can effectively make gameplay more tactical.

Im sorry but, it does penilise, it penilises players who try to play outside the box instead of playing the same old boring **** like everyone else. This is why I didnt get into any ****** MMO's like WoW were EVERYONE was the same, its boring and its ****.

Please tell me what the penalty is besides NOT getting the bonus. I repeat... NOT getting a bonus =/= getting a penalty.

Headshot buff? well great! that makes, nova knives, plasma cannons, mass drivers, flaylocks, shotguns (since you want to aim for the chest), unable to get extra points.

Scouts should be CQC speed tankers not this pansy sniper or recon crap.

and if you think scouts shouldnt be in brawling range, then please PLEASE look towards minimatar scouts WHOS PASSIVE is based around being 1 meter from those other enemies.

also good job on thinking scouts should run uplinks or scanners which when at prototype level have such a great CPU/PG usage that they make the scouts fitting unable to fit anything else decently.

I repeat, once again, scouts should be speed tankers like they have been EVERY OTHER BUILD prior to 1.4.

Edit:

I can usually get around 1500 - 2800 WPs currently using a scout WITHOUT uplinks, because uplinks are a waste of CPU/PG

WP's should be awarded for what you DO, not what you do it WITH.

Certain suits should be better at certain actions and that is the reason to chose them, but if you manage to do the same action as someone in another suit you should get the same reward.

Anything else is job discrimination.

I'm sorry Mosselia but I disagree with this statement
"Scouts should be CQC speed tankers not this pansy sniper or recon crap."

Why shouldn't a scout suit be a recon scout?
You believe a scout is meant to be a brawler suit, why?
If you prefer we can discuss this on a new thread, but this something that is highly debatable!

Also, my WP bonuses apply to being in the suit at the time of getting the WPs. So, dropping 7 uplinks with a logi, and then roaming as a scout collecting extra uplink WP would be a 'creative' way to get uplink WP. Plus it would tactically go well with the idea that scouts would be scanning in and among his deployed uplinks to make sure that they were safe to spawn at while he is searching and destroying other equipment.

And as far as other builds letting scouts be speed tankers, I haven't seen a dev say that that was working as intended.

I don't think speed tanking was really a reality. You were really just 'hit detection tanking'. Speed shouldn't be seen as a 'tanking strategy' per say, but as a way to apply or mitigate damage. Your speed is for when you can quickly get in our out of cover. You speed is for when you can sneak behind a target, get a few shots off and drop a grenade before they respond. You can only tank with HP. Movement itself has never reduced damage in Dust. It has reduced your exposure to damage. People should realize that distance does the same thing.

If you are a mid-range rifleman, having faster speed than your target will mean that you can stay in his effective range and your optimal a LOT easier than he can close distance on you. When his weapon effectiveness is at 30% and yours is at 90% having half of his total HP means you are actually coming out of the battle with the greater amound of EHP.

Scouts should stop thinking about distance and speed as mechanics other than what they are. They are there so that you can work with the physical environment to get the tactical advantage on your target.

Well just looking at the minimatar suit alone, the skill is enough reason.

CCP made the (both types) scout in every single patch / build before 1.4 a speed tanker who gets in and out and hurts. Suddenly 1.4 comes around at 2.7 mil SP in the suit alone is useless for what I and many many other skilled into it for.

Well you see thats the thing, if you basing your argument on the mini suit bonus, I could go as far as to say based on gallante suit bonuses the gallante is perfect for sneaking around and keeping out of sight.

The nova knives allow you to pick off clueless enemies, that doesn't make it a cqc god, it makes it master of suprise.
Also why is the suit speacilization bonus a reduction to scan profile?
Why is the cloaking module we may be getting supposed to be scout only?

why are scouts so good at sneaking if they aren't mean for sneaking, and using there sneakiness for the benifit of the squad?

They're good at sneaking? Oh .. you dont say ? Thats why even maxed out in skills a proto gallenete scout cant beat a single piece of equipment (the proto Active scanner).

and speculating about something that doesnt have a date and is suppost to be what balances the scout is bull **** in the mean time and means nothing.

This is admittedly probably the closest thing to a well articulated counter-argument to my proposed change, so props to you.

However, in that context, it seems that the game starts to boil down to, 'how do you farm WP in the greatest way'? The answer then is, play caldari/minamatar logi and farm WP.

While my proposed solution doesn't completely avoid that, it at least attempts to eliminate what has become a WP superiority that logistics suits provide. Logis can currently get a steady stream of income indirectly from their equipemnt slots, while also having the best tank and a good bit of PG/CPu left over for great weapon DPS, while basically only having to sacrifice some speed and shield regen for the most part.

So while tieing WP's and suit type to role performance you may be able to accuse that system as a type of 'job descrimination' (negatively) or 'affirmative action' (positively) you could turn the argument around and say you are pretty much guilty of 'classism or racism' for creating a system where people CAN'T get maximum WP unless they picked the best race/class right from the start.

Emphasis on Proto, the scanner you are refering to specifically comes with a 12db prescision.
But it also happens to come with a low pulse time, low FOV and high recharge. You would only use this for catching scouts specifically.

Every other scanner can be avoided with a proto suit and 1 proto dampener giving just 18db precision.
As for the cloak, im just using it to clarify a point, butmthats fine remove it from the arguement.

The scouts low profile is only defeated by scanners of the same tier, and only by a scout finding scanner if the scout equips a single dampner. I would say that is pretty sneaky.

The best way to address the issue is with the suit bonus like CCP is planning to do. They want to give equipment bonuses to the Logi suit, but can't until they do some base coding changes first. That will make it easier to perform logistical function sin the suit without making it easier to be an assault player.

That fixes the issue right at the root cause so you don't have to try some tax break incentive after the fact to adjust behavior.

Sneaky enough for PC use? Nope.... and PC is what the game should be balanced on, not pubs.

No it should be balanced on all match types. The reason scouts aren't sneaky enough on PC is because of old maps having poor design! Not because scouts aren't sneaky enough!

If you take the long route, which is more viable as a scout due to its speed, you can do thimgs like place uplinks behind enemy lines for flankimg, you can capture enemy installations without being detected. You can disable a pilot who has called in a tank (not in the redline, thats a whole different ball game).

Why use a scout, when a mini assault, with some kincats is almost as fast has more health and can even reach the same scan profile? If an assault suit can fill that role better than the light suit, maybe it isn't the light suits role!

If you dont think the game should be balanced around actual team play (Which only happens in PC as of right now) then Im sorry but theres no point in talking to you about balance in this game at all.

This is admittedly probably the closest thing to a well articulated counter-argument to my proposed change, so props to you.

However, in that context, it seems that the game starts to boil down to, 'how do you farm WP in the greatest way'? The answer then is, play caldari/minamatar logi and farm WP.

While my proposed solution doesn't completely avoid that, it at least attempts to eliminate what has become a WP superiority that logistics suits provide. Logis can currently get a steady stream of income indirectly from their equipemnt slots, while also having the best tank and a good bit of PG/CPu left over for great weapon DPS, while basically only having to sacrifice some speed and shield regen for the most part.

So while tieing WP's and suit type to role performance you may be able to accuse that system as a type of 'job descrimination' (negatively) or 'affirmative action' (positively) you could turn the argument around and say you are pretty much guilty of 'classism or racism' for creating a system where people CAN'T get maximum WP unless they picked the best race/class right from the start.

I have literally never experienced this game boiling down to "how do you farm WP in the greatest way?". I'm always trying to win. I don't play the game for that silly number at the end of the match. I've been running active scanners since 1.2, despite that fact that omgwtfbbq I could replace it with an uplink and get more WP. I think the majority of the playerbase approaches the game in this way as well, otherwise you'd see everyone in a pub spamming uplinks. I usually only see about 4-6 uplinks on the field at any given time in an average pub match.

Giving every class EXCEPT logis a +10 WP bonus for kill assists is patently ridiculous. I play an Amarr Logi, which is designed to be a combat-focused logi suit, with decent base EHP and a sidearm slot. It's meant to be the Assault/Logi hybrid, doing logibro things while also being competent in a firefight and assisting the assaults. Don't give me less WP for doing the same work as anyone else.

The bonuses to Heavy AV and anti-building WPs are unfair to demolitions experts (logis running around with 2 sets of REs) and SL/AV grenade users.

On the subject of uber-equipment-WP-farming Logis, have you actually tried fitting a logi? You can't have a good rack of WP-generating equipment AND good tank AND a good weapon all at once. Generally you have to pick two out those three, and that's balanced in comparison to assaults already: they have good tank, a good weapon, and one equip slot. Also, the lowered speed and shield recharge rate is a non-trivial difference. I could easily run Cal Assault with R/9 uplinks and farm plenty of WP, if that was what I wanted.

Scout and heavies are a whole different issue, but that's not going to be solved by applying such an intensive pigeonholing system. There are basic suit balance problems there, and only after those are fixed can we think about how to properly reward those roles.

On the subject of 'classism', your system will unduly reward squads of a very specific composition and using very weird tactics- you need 1 AV heavy to cash in on those bonuses, you need someone to be a scout with uplinks, and you need to make sure your logi doesn't ever, god forbid, get a kill that your assaults could have had. Any other strategy will net your squad far less WP, and therefore fewer orbitals, which may lose you a match. Dust will never have "perfectly fair" WP distribution, but at least the current system is not restrictive by frame type.

Conceptually, getting a bonus for doing things that fit the role your suite is for is brilliant. I don't know if you'll ever get such a thing past the people who would be penalized without a big cry fest though.

Nobody wants anything to change if it doesn't help them and their fit.

Yeah. Again. I don't know where people are getting this skewed perspective. Maybe it has to do with socialism or loss aversion theory or something, but when somebody gets a benefit like this, you aren't ipso facto getting taxed or penalized for them to be benefitted. You'd get the same shot at WP as you have. They just get some more for being more in line with some role.

As far as nobody wanting change because it doesn't help their fit. I think that is another problem too. So many people just have 1 or 2, maybe 3 fits they like. I swap between dozens and am really not too concerned about any one change CCP makes to my stuff.

Beren, good idea in concept the tough part is figuring a way to execute it that won't be too much of a shaping mechanism.

How about a variation on this...
At the battlefinder or prior to deployment somehow you "opt in" for a SINGLE category of bonus actions that are agnostic of the suit you wear.

Categories examples could be:
1) Front Line Fighter - +5 WP for any player kills, uplinks, and Hacks; all other WPs are baseline
2) Logistics Support - +5 WP for hive, rep, nanite injectors; all other WPs baseline
3) Vehicle Specialist - +5 WPs for kills made from vehicles, scans from your vehicle, or spawns into your vehicle
4) Recon Specialist - +5 WPs for uplinks, hacks, scans, and remote explosives; all other WP baseline
5) AV Specialist - 15 WPs for vehicle kills, +5 for player kills inside the destroyed vehicles; all other WPs baseline

(not a complete list by any stretch...just examples)

...thoughts?

Read my other post...

Just because you don't get a bonus for doing something it doesn't make it wrong to continue doing it. In the U.S., veterans get discounts for all sorts of things, but it isn't as if NOT being a servicemember is a social faux paus and you are being penalized into paying the full price for things because you chose NOT to join the military.

The best way to address the issue is with the suit bonus like CCP is planning to do. They want to give equipment bonuses to the Logi suit, but can't until they do some base coding changes first. That will make it easier to perform logistical function sin the suit without making it easier to be an assault player.

That fixes the issue right at the root cause so you don't have to try some tax break incentive after the fact to adjust behavior.