Pages: 1 2 3 :: [one page] |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
951
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 06:26:00 -
[1] - Quote
First the feedback:
Kadeim wrote:Your new maps are totally sniper unfriendly. No high points, most facilities have fences on the roof and around the building. So snipers have to find a spot where they can watch for targets, because a sniper rifle is absolutely no good as an assault weapon, and the scout suits are so weak, in shield and armor.
Now add on to this that we have to actually take a step, or fire our weapon, which can give away our position because just scanning an area zooming in and out looking for a target trips the "TACNET sessions will expire if no action is taken" and if we see something coming through the buildings (so we don't want to give away our position) we are kicked out!
This is absolutely **! I played a long time to get to lvl 5 scout so I could use it for sniping. A LOT of time and also money to try to have something to enjoy playing the game.
What a waste. If I could, I would want all my money that I put into the game back, and would even like to get paid for the wasted time.
Please do something about this timer, at least for snipers. You created the suit, yet you continuously ignore the pleads of those using the scout suit - but you gladly listen to and respond to everyone who cries about afk'rs and the op sniper. A scout (especially a sniper using a scout suit) needs to be able to use the equipment that you make them work so hard to try to get leveled into, yet is then crippled even more by whiners that you listen to and want to take care of - not thinking about those of us that need to lay still, or move slowly.
Addendum: Not fair that you add any deaths to my count, but not the kills if I leave or am kicked trying to snipe. If Imust loose equipment and have that death tallied, then I should also get credit for any kills.
Beeeees wrote:CCP LogicLoop wrote:
Objective hack locations are to be protected from "long range" attacks and any snipers if at all possible.
Im gonna get lynched for this, but dude, this is care-bear tier of balance. This is just wrong on so many levels.
This is from a dropship pilot, not a sniper:
Halador Osiris wrote:The hardest part to take out of all this is that my Python will - from now on out - be useless during an active hack. In the older content, I can watch an objective and rain down missiles from above until A) friendly support shows up; or B) enemy AV shows up. I really liked this and felt like it was balanced, because there is no way I'll be leaving my ship to hack that objective on my own, so I was really just there as a guard dog. I haven't had the opportunity to do that yet on these new outposts, which takes away from my short list of functions I can perform. Python List of Duties:
- Area Denial
- Kill Mercs
- Kill HAVs
- Kill Installations
- Light Squad Transport
- Pretty Flaming Light Show
Defend Objectives
Niuvo wrote:I've spent 14mil sp into a scout and feel as I am militia grade. I've spent frustrating hours trying to compete, I seriously have to try hard. I don't use ARs I don't use grenades, not the MD. As you can see there is a knifing community, so fix our knives. The only sure kills are ppl standing still. You are killing me CCP, you are killing me over and over.
|
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
951
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 06:28:00 -
[2] - Quote
Draco Cerberus wrote: While I admire your ability to follow a formula when designing sniper positions, reality says that i should not have to use a dropship to get to a "sniper pad". This defeats the purpose of sniping, to kill without being seen. It also limits people to only using the designated sniper pads and due to the fact that it does not limit anyone from finding a location in which they can both not be seen and can still snipe you from anywhere on the ground level, the design element of rails around all the tops of the buildings of many of the new maps which can neither be jumped over nor climbed or vaulted is shortsighted. I can't count the number of times in the last year that a merc has placed an uplink in an inaccessible location, to either leave the location or get to it.
This is not just a sniper problem. This is a heavy, scout, assault and logi problem, whatever gun they are using. Sniping on many of the new maps is not as prominent in the game yet but as the sniper pads are found and used it will return most likely to the way it was pre patch. The railings not only block snipers from shooting but also block mercs at the top of the buildings from engaging the enemy without long jogs around to the few openings they have and as such please consider removing SOME of the railings.
Vespasian Andendare wrote:]Listen, I hate snipers, and I really wish he had better intel to locate where they are firing from, but is arbitrarily blocking them past a certain point really the answer?
Couldn't we be given better tools? Or better yet, couldn't you just have their guns miss most of the time by having them shooting way outside of falloff? But at least they *could* have a chance to hit someone with a "wrecking" shot if the stars aligned.
Vell0cet wrote:There are some coding heuristics that are trivial to implement that would solve this problem (it would literally take a programmer less than an hour to fix this). If you ADS and are moving your scope in a random pattern (i.e. not with a rubber-band which will constantly output the same x,y coordinates) or are highlighting enemies with your aiming marker, then you're clearly not AFK. You may be a bad sniper, or are in a stupid position, but that's different than not physically being present at the controller. These players should be punished with low WPs and less than exciting payouts (as they already are), but kicking them from the match isn't right.
Quil Evrything wrote:First off, I'm confused why a whine about anti-AFK measures, has a first post that has virutally no mention of AFK, but keeps whining about what a lousy sniper the OP is.
but anyway, back to the AFK issue: totally broken, **BY DESIGN**. The design is inherently broken. So long as you keep making it possible for a player to passively get SP, just for existing, there will be ways to game it.
Yesterday, I saw some bozo, who had rigged his char to just repeatedly jump up and down, firing at a wall. Fairly easy to do.
The only real fixes:
1. No passive SP gain while you are behind your own redline. This is the minimum change that will actually do something
2. no passive SP gain at all. Make it so you only gain SP for combat related actions. ie: expending bullets ON A TARGET. Not just "firing your weapon in the air". Taking damage should also continue to count towards SP. Then, INCREASE the amount of SP that these things give you.
Benefits of this system: These would be even more newb friendly: many newbs cant actually get a kill, but do manage to get a few bullets on target before they die.
Additionaly, it would drastically cut down on redline sniping. Which in one way is good, but in another way is bad. More maps need to have 400m out locations. 300-400m is the appropriate deployment distance for a sniper. Some of the smaller maps, the only way you can get 400m out, is to go into redline.
|
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
951
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 06:31:00 -
[3] - Quote
Seeth Mensch wrote:
It is really tedious to deal with sniper that is busily covering an objective. It is really tedious to deal with snipers in Ambush.
Both are reasonable, though.
Where snipers fail, and I see this more than I see the previous two, is running out, redlining, and then trying to get a "big kill count! FTW!" when it isn't the objective, they aren't helping their team, and all they manage to do is annoy those that are actually playing.
Sniping should have a purpose beyond getting a kill count.
More on-topic: AFK isn't reset by just looking through the scope? Surprising.
Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:
Totally agree... Snipers are supposed to dominate key terrain if requried. If you can't figure out how to clear the sniper out before hacking then drive a vehicle up or two to give you a mobile barrier when you hack.
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:
Can we take this as official confirmation the Dust team has abandoned work on randomly generated terrain? Because if you haven't, this set of rules is bogus as you have no control over what terrain would be randomly generated to give a sniper such an advantage.
|
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
951
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 06:34:00 -
[4] - Quote
Ferindar wrote:CCP LogicLoop wrote:On the topic of sniper locations. We have a set of parameters we follow. Since in all reality with a DS a sniper can reach nearly any high position. We took steps to ensure that what sniper points do exist are able to be engaged by other players in some way.
To be more specific, over a certain height in meters snipers are completely blocked. In one range X meters up to X meters the sniper must be limited in their movement and must always be exposed to ground units. In the last parameter, that sits at the lowest of meters snipers are given more freedom to move, and able to move in and out of exposure freely.
Objective hack locations are to be protected from "long range" attacks and any snipers if at all possible. So in short, the number one job of an effective Sniper is something you try to actively prevent now? I was always most effective at a high spot with a decent overlook on an objective, and with a clear shot on anyone approaching. There were a few places where they could make a hack and I couldn't shoot them, but these new maps, if you try to get on any decent looking spot, it instantly kills you. Now, I can go shotgunning, or load my militia fit with my militia AR, but that's not fun to me. I like Sniping and hunting long range. I like how this game has it to where a Sniper Rifle isn't always an instant kill, which makes me have to think a bit more tactically on my targets. Do I soften that heavy? Do I kill that militia guy who's moving to flank my buddy? Do I shoot now and make them hesitate on rushing across the open, or do I wait? All of this has been stripped from us in these new maps. I do like the Research Facility socket, I really do. But when all maps use that exclusively, and leave no main choke points or pathways for a Sniper to overwatch, it really kills our value to the team. We already get a bad name from Plinkers. And to counter snipers, here's a list of how: Ferindar wrote: Militia Dropships only cost 70k ISK, require no skills trained to fly, and can get you there pretty fast.
If you can't be bothered to fly up there, land, then spray and pray with your AR until you get a kill, then you deserve to get sniped over and over.
If you can't be bothered to load the FREE SNIPER FIT and suppress them, you deserve to get blown to bits by blue balls of death.
If you can't be bothered to work as a team, you deserve to die alone.
|
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
951
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 06:42:00 -
[5] - Quote
CCP LogicLoop wrote:On the topic of sniper locations. We have a set of parameters we follow. Since in all reality with a DS a sniper can reach nearly any high position. We took steps to ensure that what sniper points do exist are able to be engaged by other players in some way.
To be more specific, over a certain height in meters snipers are completely blocked. In one range X meters up to X meters the sniper must be limited in their movement and must always be exposed to ground units. In the last parameter, that sits at the lowest of meters snipers are given more freedom to move, and able to move in and out of exposure freely.
Objective hack locations are to be protected from "long range" attacks and any snipers if at all possible.
CCP LogicLoop wrote:
While you may think we are trying to prevent you from playing your role, we are not. You do not even know the actual meter count, or ranges that make up the rules. You only know that we have taken measures to ensure snipers are not in mass dominating an entire map (like Manus Peak).
This is the direction that leadership wants this, because they have a vision of what the game play is to be for every role, and how each role supports one another. The sniper is not dead.
Our goal, and it has been achieved with this socket set, is preventing entire areas from being completely dominated by snipers. Biomass and Communications is another great example. Where the only access to those top areas is a dropship, and an army of snipers reside there. Dominating an entire outpost. This is not "fun" for the people who are playing the game the way we intended it to be played.
We use sight lines, the rule set I discussed earlier, and general layouts to encourage effective game play from each role. Strategy and tactics entails using logic, and planning, coordination with others, effective dropsuit fittings, and weapons load-outs. What we are encouraging is "thinking".
You can still snipe, you can still be useful to your team. If you so desire to try and play with your squads and other players in an effective way.
Please examine this feedback, and compare it to your statements. |
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
951
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 06:52:00 -
[6] - Quote
Now look at this other feedback.
Green Living wrote:Doesn't feel bad for snipers, good riddance.
The Terminator T-1000 wrote: I hate to get sniped so I love the new maps! Learn to adjust
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:
How awful it would be if you'd actually *gasp* die to something other than a countersnipe!
Do you know WHY the feedback looks like this CCP LogicLoop? :(
Because sniping is in fact dead.
People are complaining that they can't make good use of their sniper perches, and the majority is showering you with likes because they aren't getting sniped anymore!
So when you state that sniping isn't dead.... but the results from BOTH sides of the argument indicate otherwise.... what do you think the actual state of sniping REALLY is?
I'm not talking about K/D metrics for sniper users. That's irrelevant. I'm talking about EFFICIENT sniping, that matters in a fight. Objective coverage, etc. A sniper couldn't totally cover an objective if it was swarmed anyway.
Why did you guys see fit to fix what wasn't broken? |
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
951
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 06:55:00 -
[7] - Quote
Now for the map data that you provided:
Here's my recommendation, because I believe this situation can be salvaged:
CCP LogicLoop wrote:Hello community. With the release of the new Surface Infrastructure (Sockets) set, and the new terrain with game modes. We want to get some very specific feedback. All the positive feedback is greatly appreciated. And we are all excited to hear you love what we have done. However, we have one topic we have not seen a lot of comments on yet and that is the topic of complexity. We want to know how you feel about the complexity of these maps. It would help us greatly to answer the following questions. 1. For the new Research Facility. Overall, did you feel it was too complex or not very complex in layout and navigation? 2. For the supporting smaller sockets (mediums and smalls) in the SI Set. Did you feel these were too complex or not very complex? 3. For the new game mode area Border Gulch, did you feel its layout and navigation was too complex or not complex enough? 4. For the new game mode area Fracture Road, did you feel its layout and navigation was too complex or not complex enough? 5. For the new game mode area Impact Ridge, did you feel its layout and navigation was too complex or not complex enough? 6. Do you have any other comments or concerns not covered in this short list you would like to say?We primarily want to find a general consensus on if the players are getting easily confused by the maps or not when it comes to navigation so we can take it into consideration as we continue to develop more game play areas for you. Thanks you for taking the time to answer these questions. Actually I don't find any of the maps too complex. In fact, they are decent, but I wish they were MORE complex. It would be nice if we were able to have foot and ladder access to more of the general superstructures. Essentially, people are using dropships to deploy uplinks on top of the superstructures, but you only have people running around at ground level, and you have ALL this structure in between that isn't being used.
Basically, put some more interior. Let the buildings have multiple floors. Let them have multiple basement floors as well. You also have a lot of open land with nothing on it. This should be dotted with turrets, supply depots, roads, and CRUs. Maybe you can be nice and put a couple sniper towers in there.
For example, Border Gulch. A sniper tower anywhere from H3 - K6, would enable snipers to send fire to the objective A bridge. EMPTY SPACE everywhere from H2 - M8... with the objectives elsewhere, there's no reason why a sniper tower or two, and some elevated structures can't be placed to allow snipers to harrass flankers attempting to move on objectives D and E, and provide limited support fire on objective A. (Limitied because there is SO much cover on that bridge.) Give elevated structures detailed and complex interiors. Give them like 5 floors with window view for snipers... ground access is acceptable. Stop leaving snipers out.
Look at Impact Ridge! E2 - H4. Structures and elevated structures can be placed here. Or bunker structures. There's so much empty space, and not even snipers can take advantage of it or cover it, because you've been so determined to block them out! B5 - C8 can be used.
Look at Fracture Road. It's a very arduous task to cover ground in it, if you're the attacker. The attacker side has to travel substantially more distance to capture objectives D and A at the start. This map is good on its use of space, but the structures lack expansive interiors. Whenever you enter a structure, you expect it to find an elevator to go down, or up, even further, but it's not there. We're seeing large and awesome structures that are basically..... completely solid and not hollow (with interiors).
The research facility has no actual research labs in them. lol
Again, yes. You guys have done a beautiful job. I think I speak for everyone when I say that these new maps are much more fun than the old ones. (Or maybe we just really needed new maps that badly.)
Complexity level on a scale from 1-10 for the maps.... I would put it at a 5. For all of them. (And a 2 for the old maps.)
But please, drop the anti-sniper philosophy. These new maps have so much potential for overwatch sniper positions, that would allow a sniper to do his job, and I identified them. All that empty space is where snipers really shined. Getting good overwatch positioning on chokepoints was vital.
You are limiting how complex and dynamic your battlefields can be when you design them to exclude a portion of your players.
|
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
951
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 07:01:00 -
[8] - Quote
To expand on Border Gulch, areas D13 - H16 can also be used for complex elevated structures, which won't obstruct the road, and also allow long range fire from swarms, sniper rifles, and forge guns on to the bridge.
Also at least consider allowing "Home Points" on Skirmish matches to be opened to long range fire. This can dramatically help prevent teams from getting red lined, which for whatever reason seems to be getting more prevalent even though AA and MM were allegedly introduced (and NOT toned down) |
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
951
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 07:07:00 -
[9] - Quote
Some dialog between myself and a non-sniper on the changes, and other things related to sniper role.
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Jathniel wrote: [quote=Arkena Wyrnspire] Now your OP is much more constructive, I'm going to also be more constructive. Long post cooking now. I appreciate you may be frustrated with what I posted earlier, but redline sniping is a terrible part of the game and I have genuinely had some success on the new maps sniping by going in. Looking at your suggested sites though, I agree with them.
I think there are more problems with the sniper class as a whole, though. I'll add a long post to this thread shortly.
Forgive my frustration, it just irritates me that folks know it's broken for snipers, but then act like it isn't just because they hate the role. There are indeed many problems with the sniper role mostly centered on the weapon imo. The sniper rifle weapon itself was balanced for the Codex build, but nothing today remotely resembles Codex.
Yeah. It's annoying - everybody gets this towards what they play at some point. It's just part of the vitriol of the forums.
I think you're quite correct in saying that some of the problems are with the sniper rifle.
Quote: The sway in ADS was meant to regulate quick-scoping at closer range, it also enforces a mandatory settling time to line up and fire a 100% steadied shot; just wiggling your big toe causes you to seizure and throws the sway haywire again, penalizing you for the slightest possible movement. This feature is a big problem at engagement ranges of 100-150m, where a lot of snipers are finding themselves in the new maps (it's either get close, or be useless. Non-sniper players don't mind this. It makes snipers easier to kill, which is all they care about, but building a map and balancing can't be done with just their viewpoint in mind.) Closing in on a sniper is not difficult at this point, and a player needs to only be at 80-100m to knock a sniper out in a flash. At that point, you find sniper's finding it more reasonable to pick up a utility weapon. The 100m range belongs to utility weapons, not sniper rifles.
The weapons have small clips, and longer reload times compared to their utility weapon counterparts, and as it stands right now, doing what's necessary to use a sniper rifle as fire support in a match usually gets you killed in the heat of battle. Blending in with the environment is not reliable due to prevalence of active scanners, and even at the edge of utility weapon range, the dps from an AR or Scrambler rifle at the edge of their effective (not absolute) range is still generally fast enough to put a sniper down before he can get off a 2nd round.
I wish I could share footage... maybe I'll go and purchase an input capture box today. I keep putting it off.
In addition to elevated or complex structures on the new maps at key postiions. I also propose only 2 changes to the sniper rifle itself:
- Eliminate sway penalty for movement while crouched. This has little bearing on Overwatch Snipers, but this will enable Fire Support Snipers to be more useful than fodder, since it will allow them to move back and forth from behind cover, without totally losing their aim constantly.
- Eliminate sway penalty when NOT moving while standing. Again, Fire Support Snipers benefit from this. This will allow snipers to stop in the middle of a fight, and take a quick shot at someone with zero sway, but if they try to strafe, they will instantly lose their aim.
Decent suggestions. I fully agree with the first one - that's quite reasonable. The second one has a small problem - The scope sway was to prevent quickscoping. Standing still, just for a moment, would make quickscoping entirely possible with this implemented. I'd suggest that instead, it's a reduction in scope sway.
The main thing I'd like to discuss with you though is the actual role of the sniper. What should it be? Currently, it's a weakish long ranged slayer class that is often found being used to minimise risk.
Previously, a sniper could tag enemies on the TACNET so they appeared on the radar. With the advent of 1.4 and the removal of shared squad vision, this is no longer possible. That's significantly diminished the overwatch role - Calling out targets to your squad is a pain to describe compared to putting a dot on their radar in the exact spot. Also, the overwatch sniper cannot do much for the entire team anymore - You can't really call things out vocally for the team, as that either consistently disrupts an organised team's comms, or in the case of a pubmatch, is simply not doable as not everybody is on comms.
So the overwatch role has been marginalised, really. There's very little it can do.
One solution I'd suggest is adding a 'tagging' ability to the sniper rifle. I'm not sure on the specifics or what button it would use, but essentially it'd be pressing a button to highlight a target in your scope on the radar for your entire team. If that target is subsequently killed, you get a kill assist.
In terms of 'Fire support' snipers, a lot of the problems with that role comes down to damage concerns and scaling. In pubmatches, a high end sniper can be a fearsome thing - A Thale's or Charge rifle will OHKO a lot of the suits typically running around in a pubmatch. Unfortunately, as you scale up the tiers, HP increases significantly but damage does not. The prototype rifles become less effective against prototype suits than standard rifles were against standard suits. In some ways, this needs to be the case - otherwise a prototype tactical rifle would just go around instakilling a ton of suits in pubmatches, which isn't desirable. At the same time, in more competitive matches, that renders them much less useful as people tend to be able to shrug off that fire.
I'm not really sure what the solution is for this. Perhaps tiericide, but that's a huge... |
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
951
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 07:15:00 -
[10] - Quote
There is a lot to consider, before simply determining that it's a "bad" thing for snipers to be able to exert control over a map.
It's CCP's job to gather info and determine the best course of action.
How can you understand what their role is, and then deliberately neutralize it? If the reason is, "because they **** everyone off" you can't possibly think that qualifies as a reason to not balance against, but totally neutralize a role...
People hate dying. People hate getting killed by Militia Assault Rifles. People hate getting killed by tanks and railguns and grenades. So what's the grounds for this stance against snipers? Is there some massive change coming to the sniper rifle soon? |
|
Monkey MAC
killer taxi company General Tso's Alliance
504
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 07:44:00 -
[11] - Quote
Sorry you havr entirely misconstrued LogicLoops intention, sniping isn't dead, your just not doing it right!! I have corp members who still use snipers to great effect on the new maps!!
LogicLoop is using thr maps to return the risk, to the risk/reward style play. Snipers aren't dead, they just aren't meant to be used in the way YOU want them to. There is still plenty of open space, still plenty of choke points for you to harass, still plenty of installations you can "guard".
Its not about having nests, hidey holes, and the like, its about moving to support your team/squad based on the action, its being a little closer than prehaps you'd like so you can get that shot, and its not necessarily mabout 1 shotting everyone!!
Its time to adapt, like we all have, take the new style of play and make it your own!! |
Seymor Krelborn
DUST University Ivy League
948
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 08:57:00 -
[12] - Quote
I have seen so many awesome sniper spots on the new maps... you have to be doing it wrong.... |
Kekklian Noobatronic
Goonfeet Top Men.
448
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 09:48:00 -
[13] - Quote
Snipers are worse than Tank drivers, jesus..
An entire thread devoted to defending the following - Snipers should be allowed to Redline snipe with no penalty - Snipers should be allowed to place themselves out of reach of infantry - Snipers should only be counterable by either other snipers (Rock counters Rock, gg) - Infantry should have to use dropships to counter snipers, because of course, flying them is easy, and the sniper won't see it coming or run away from the person with the dropship. (Resulting in a 70k+ waste of equipment per attempt) - While snipers can already hit people going towards objectives, that's not enough. Snipers should have dominance over objective hack points as well, at distances exceeding 400M+ - Scout suits need to be tougher, because they don't have enough HP when using all their high slots to stack damage mods - (Insert any of the many completely ******** things snipers have posted in this thread in defense of their class being OP)
Tl;Dr - Snipers can get bent, they have it easy enough as it is, and CCP should be applauded by making efforts to even the field, giving foot soldiers the ability to counter snipers.
Don't like a shotgun to the back of the head? It's called situational awareness. Get some. Your kills should not be handed to you on a silver platter with no risk involved. |
Monkey MAC
killer taxi company General Tso's Alliance
505
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 09:50:00 -
[14] - Quote
Kekklian Noobatronic wrote:Snipers are worse than Tank drivers, jesus..
An entire thread devoted to defending the following - Snipers should be allowed to Redline snipe with no penalty - Snipers should be allowed to place themselves out of reach of infantry - Snipers should only be counterable by either other snipers (Rock counters Rock, gg) - Infantry should have to use dropships to counter snipers, because of course, flying them is easy, and the sniper won't see it coming or run away from the person with the dropship. (Resulting in a 70k+ waste of equipment per attempt) - While snipers can already hit people going towards objectives, that's not enough. Snipers should have dominance over objective hack points as well, at distances exceeding 400M+ - Scout suits need to be tougher, because they don't have enough HP when using all their high slots to stack damage mods - (Insert any of the many completely ******** things snipers have posted in this thread in defense of their class being OP)
Tl;Dr - Snipers can get bent, they have it easy enough as it is, and CCP should be applauded by making efforts to even the field, giving foot soldiers the ability to counter snipers.
Don't like a shotgun to the back of the head? It's called situational awareness. Get some. Your kills should not be handed to you on a silver platter with no risk involved.
Wanna help with another thread in GD? |
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
952
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 11:00:00 -
[15] - Quote
Kekklian Noobatronic wrote:Snipers are worse than Tank drivers, jesus..
An entire thread devoted to defending the following - Snipers should be allowed to Redline snipe with no penalty - Snipers should be allowed to place themselves out of reach of infantry - Snipers should only be counterable by either other snipers (Rock counters Rock, gg) - Infantry should have to use dropships to counter snipers, because of course, flying them is easy, and the sniper won't see it coming or run away from the person with the dropship. (Resulting in a 70k+ waste of equipment per attempt) - While snipers can already hit people going towards objectives, that's not enough. Snipers should have dominance over objective hack points as well, at distances exceeding 400M+ - Scout suits need to be tougher, because they don't have enough HP when using all their high slots to stack damage mods - (Insert any of the many completely ******** things snipers have posted in this thread in defense of their class being OP)
Tl;Dr - Snipers can get bent, they have it easy enough as it is, and CCP should be applauded by making efforts to even the field, giving foot soldiers the ability to counter snipers.
Don't like a shotgun to the back of the head? It's called situational awareness. Get some. Your kills should not be handed to you on a silver platter with no risk involved.
You non-snipers are absolutely, truly, INCAPABLE, thoroughly INCAPABLE of seeing this game from ANY other viewpoint. So.... I'll address this 1 by 1, since you've proven so thoroughly to be incapable of reading the OP.
- Yes. If their team is redlined. Duh. (Do you need a hammer to the head to make this clear? Nvm. That wouldn't help.) - Yes. Because the sniper rifle is a highly inefficient weapon to use if you're within assault rifle range! DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS? KNOCK KNOCK. It's a "long range" (get it? LONG RANGE) weapon. Hellooooooo? This would be a simple matter of using the appropriate weapon, but it's not; and it's not because EVERY MAP that will EVER BE will be off limits to the long range sniper role! Did you read this? Where is your comprehension at? - Yes. If a sniper has situated his position, and it is defensible against every other means. A smart sniper will try to get into a position that he can defend on his own if necessary. He bothered to put the thought into his positioning, but you'd rather he be one of those poor blokes you see crouching down in the middle of a street wouldn't you? You act as if snipers can deploy an impentrable igloo right in the middle of a map. (Actually, this is something that you non-sniper dimwits request every so often. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=593253#post593253 - This is a total non-sequitur. Snipers that attempt to fly up to perches, often get shot down by forge gunners or swarmers as well. The sniper's role is broken and OP because you find it inconvienient to kill them? LUDICROUS. By your logic, tanks should be taken out of the game, because AV would be too risky and expensive to deploy! If the sniper (player 1) has to work hard, and put forth thought, effort, and risk resource, in order to perform his role with high efficiency; so too must the person that wishes to kill said sniper. If that sniper jumps off the tower because he sees you coming, then you just accomplished your mission! Don't you see that? He's NOT on the tower anymore! - Yes. Because battles happen BY OBJECTIVES, uplinks are dropped BY OBJECTIVES, everything relevant is BY THE OBJECTIVE! So what purpose has the sniper role if it can't do anything about THE OBJECTIVE? Previously, a sniper could be a first line of defense, or a last line of defense for an objective, but it could NEVER supplant the necessity of boots on the ground moving on or around the objective. It worked as a supplement to a squad as a long range, force multiplier. ALL it EVER took to take out this so-called "OP" role, was: 1 flanker or 1 countersniper. That's it. But you guys were too lazy to run (or drive) around and flank a sniper, you were too lazy to hop in a dropship... jesus christ, you were too lazy to pick up a sniper rifle! Then you want to get all filled with bravado, jumping on the forums pounding your chest and crying out "HTFU"? What a total double standard, and you're too blind to even see what you're saying!
How can you accuse us of our kills being handed to us on a silver platter, when you KNOW what snipers needed to do in order to be efficient? Now snipers are literally handed to you on a silver platter with these new maps, and you're too busy licking the plate to recognize the deliberate 'care-bear imbalancing' for what it is.
TL;DR: You spew nonsense. Fvck off. |
Kekklian Noobatronic
Goonfeet Top Men.
448
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 11:19:00 -
[16] - Quote
Jathniel wrote:
You non-snipers are absolutely, truly, INCAPABLE, thoroughly INCAPABLE of seeing this game from ANY other viewpoint. So.... I'll address this 1 by 1, since you've proven so thoroughly to be incapable of reading the OP.
Read your OP, it was nothing but complaining. Also, I have over 17 Million SP, heavily invested in Heavies, Logistics, AV, and Assault, with an alt at 5.5M, Full scout. I've tried sniping, and frankly I've found it **** easy - a monkey could do it.
Jathniel wrote:
- Yes. If their team is redlined. Duh. (Do you need a hammer to the head to make this clear? Nvm. That wouldn't help.) - Yes. Because the sniper rifle is a highly inefficient weapon to use if you're within assault rifle range! DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS? KNOCK KNOCK. It's a "long range" (get it? LONG RANGE) weapon. Hellooooooo? This would be a simple matter of using the appropriate weapon, but it's not; and it's not because EVERY MAP that will EVER BE will be off limits to the long range sniper role! Did you read this? Where is your comprehension at?
1) If you're redlined, get a real gun out and go help 2) No kidding a sniper isint an assault rifle? What, you think it should be? You have a sidearm for a reason - use it. You don't deserve special treatment just because you chose to use a long-distance weapon. That's the most ******** thing i've ever heard. Go talk to a real Sniper, ask them what happens if someone gets the drop on them. I'm fairly sure they won't start complaining that it's "Not fair their sniper rifle isin't designed to be used at close range". Moron.
Jathniel wrote:- Yes. If a sniper has situated his position, and it is defensible against every other means. A smart sniper will try to get into a position that he can defend on his own if necessary. He bothered to put the thought into his positioning, but you'd rather he be one of those poor blokes you see crouching down in the middle of a street wouldn't you? You act as if snipers can deploy an impentrable igloo right in the middle of a map. (Actually, this is something that you non-sniper dimwits request every so often. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=593253#post593253- This is a total non-sequitur. Snipers that attempt to fly up to perches, often get shot down by forge gunners or swarmers as well. The sniper's role is broken and OP because you find it inconvienient to kill them? LUDICROUS. By your logic, tanks should be taken out of the game, because AV would be too risky and expensive to deploy! If the sniper (player 1) has to work hard, and put forth thought, effort, and risk resource, in order to perform his role with high efficiency; so too must the person that wishes to kill said sniper. If that sniper jumps off the tower because he sees you coming, then you just accomplished your mission! Don't you see that? He's NOT on the tower anymore!
3-4) This is a video game, which is supposed to be fair to all players. Giving players unfair advantages just because they decided to use a different set of weaponry goes counter to good game design. Again, CCP clearly gets this point and is making changes, so you can complain all you want. I'll simply sit back and laugh as snipers keep having their various impenetrable fortress spots nerfed to oblivion. Allow me to start by pointing and laughing at you specifically - "Ho ha!"
Jathniel wrote: - Yes. Because battles happen BY OBJECTIVES, uplinks are dropped BY OBJECTIVES, everything relevant is BY THE OBJECTIVE! So what purpose has the sniper role if it can't do anything about THE OBJECTIVE? Previously, a sniper could be a first line of defense, or a last line of defense for an objective, but it could NEVER supplant the necessity of boots on the ground moving on or around the objective. It worked as a supplement to a squad as a long range, force multiplier. ALL it EVER took to take out this so-called "OP" role, was: 1 flanker or 1 countersniper. That's it. But you guys were too lazy to run (or drive) around and flank a sniper, you were too lazy to hop in a dropship... jesus christ, you were too lazy to pick up a sniper rifle! Then you want to get all filled with bravado, jumping on the forums pounding your chest and crying out "HTFU"? What a total double standard, and you're too blind to even see what you're saying!
5) So what you're saying is that you have the following.. - Fire superiority when someone approaches the objective (First line of defence, as you put it) - Fire superiority against people in open terrain (Still first) - Fire superiority against people who take cover(Because they're only going to come out again and get 1 shotted)
Now you also want - Fire superiority and easy kills for people who - by game design - are forced to stay still while taking objective points?
Did I sum that all up? So, people taking objectives should be punished because it takes time to hack, just because some moron picked up a sniper rifle? Fine, I want sniper rifle ranged reduced to 200M, so that teams don't have to travel all the way across the map to protect their teammates. And no - you can't always "park a vehicle"in the way. They aren't that high off the ground to prevent a sniper from getting a shot at the person hacking. Again, GO CCP FOR DESIGNING MAPS WITH THIS IN MIND.
Jathniel wrote: Some bullshit [/b]
- Snipers have ludicrous range - Sniper KDR's generally exceed 10:1 - Snipers can 1 shot players with body shots - Infantry have no way of knowing past 100M where a player is - snipers can sit at distances over 500M+. The only way to find out where they are is to get shot by one. How fair is that? Not very
Please go away, you're just some raging little sniper fanboi, and you're really not worth my time past this post. |
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
952
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 11:25:00 -
[17] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:Sorry you havr entirely misconstrued LogicLoops intention, sniping isn't dead, your just not doing it right!! I have corp members who still use snipers to great effect on the new maps!!
LogicLoop is using thr maps to return the risk, to the risk/reward style play. Snipers aren't dead, they just aren't meant to be used in the way YOU want them to. There is still plenty of open space, still plenty of choke points for you to harass, still plenty of installations you can "guard".
Its not about having nests, hidey holes, and the like, its about moving to support your team/squad based on the action, its being a little closer than prehaps you'd like so you can get that shot, and its not necessarily mabout 1 shotting everyone!!
Its time to adapt, like we all have, take the new style of play and make it your own!!
I appreciate your input.
I don't think LogicLoop was mincing words when he said he wanted to make sure objectives were not exposed to long range attacks. Sometimes, and especially in PC, the person delivering that long range attack on an objective is the ONLY person can deliver an attack on that objective; and sometimes that objective is so overwhelmed with hostiles, that the long range attack can do little more than buy your team time to get back to reinforce it.
Somewhere at some point in the head of someone at CCP, it was concluded that a long range attack was some how less legitimate and more unfavorable than a short range one.
Everything you mention that can be done, could still be done before 1.4. But using a sniper rifle to guard a supply depot should hardly be considered a priority. Again, there is nothing wrong with what you recommend, but what you're recommending isn't ideal for sniper rifle use. The person running around on the ground in wide areas is better off using a different weapon, not a sniper rifle. Have your guys skill into ARs, Scrambler Rifles, and Laser Rifles, and you'll notice that what they're doing to "great effect" with the sniper rifle, at THOSE ranges, they would find a different weapon more efficient. |
Monkey MAC
killer taxi company General Tso's Alliance
508
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 11:31:00 -
[18] - Quote
Who hey hey less of the monkey, I may found it easy but thats not the point!! ANYONE can do it, the old maps are risk free and open, now you might have to move into about 90m your flipping your lid!! |
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
952
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 12:10:00 -
[19] - Quote
Kekklian Noobatronic wrote:Read your OP, it was nothing but complaining. Also, I have over 17 Million SP, heavily invested in Heavies, Logistics, AV, and Assault, with an alt at 5.5M, Full scout. I've tried sniping, and frankly I've found it **** easy - a monkey could do it.
Read the OP again. If all you saw was complaining, then your reading comprehension leaves much to be desired. I have 17 million SP too, and have been playing since well in the closed beta. I've found playing assault and heavy to be easy and repetitive - a monkey could do it. You got some kind of point you're trying to make?
Kekklian Noobatronic wrote: 1) If you're redlined, get a real gun out and go help 2) No kidding a sniper isint an assault rifle? What, you think it should be? You have a sidearm for a reason - use it. You don't deserve special treatment just because you chose to use a long-distance weapon. That's the most ******** thing i've ever heard. Go talk to a real Sniper, ask them what happens if someone gets the drop on them. I'm fairly sure they won't start complaining that it's "Not fair their sniper rifle isin't designed to be used at close range". Moron.
1. When I blow your head off with a charge sniper rifle, you won't be wondering if it's a real gun. 2. And you don't deserve "special treatment" because you use a close-range weapon! "Special Treatment" is exactly what you've been given and is EXACTLY what you're advocating, by praising these new maps.
Kekklian Noobatronic wrote: 3-4) This is a video game, which is supposed to be fair to all players. Giving players unfair advantages just because they decided to use a different set of weaponry goes counter to good game design. Again, CCP clearly gets this point and is making changes, so you can complain all you want. I'll simply sit back and laugh as snipers keep having their various impenetrable fortress spots nerfed to oblivion. Allow me to start by pointing and laughing at you specifically - "Ho ha!"
That is the very thing that you are advocating. It's like a racist discriminatory idiot complaining that he's being discriminated against. 17 million SP, and you don't know how to get rid of a sniper? No wonder you got "noob" in your name. Every time a sniper team puts up a good defense on their position, that is ENTIRELY because of skill, situational awareness, and foresight on their part! Not some arbitrary, care-bear, map redesign! See the difference!?
Kekklian Noobatronic wrote: 5) So what you're saying is that you have the following.. - Fire superiority when someone approaches the objective (First line of defence, as you put it) - Fire superiority against people in open terrain (Still first) - Fire superiority against people who take cover(Because they're only going to come out again and get 1 shotted) Now you also want - Fire superiority and easy kills for people who - by game design - are forced to stay still while taking objective points?
When a sniper defends an objective, it's suddenly not defense? You run up on the objective. You know I'm there. You didn't take care of me first? Damn right your ass is getting sniped.
Let's see? Hmmm. Running out in the open on foot? Damn right your ass is getting sniped.
Let's see.. taking cover? Wow, you wouldn't be able to, or know to take cover, if you were getting OHK'd. You must have snipers confused with forge gunners. My bad. However, if you come out from behind cover without recharging your shields and armor...? Damn fvcking RIGHT, your ass getting SNIPED!
So basically you're saying now, that NO MATTER THE CIRCUMSTANCE, it is WRONG and BAD, and UNFAIR, for YOU to be killed by a sniper. 1. If you're on the objective, it's bad. 2. If you're in the OPEN, it's bad. 3. If you run from behind cover with insufficient defense, it's bad.
You're saying it! Not me. I hope anyone with a lick of balanced thought is seeing the kind of mindset that CCP just catered to!
Kekklian Noobatronic wrote: Did I sum that all up? So, people taking objectives should be punished because it takes time to hack, just because some moron picked up a sniper rifle? Fine, I want sniper rifle ranged reduced to 200M, so that teams don't have to travel all the way across the map to protect their teammates. And no - you can't always "park a vehicle"in the way. They aren't that high off the ground to prevent a sniper from getting a shot at the person hacking. Again, GO CCP FOR DESIGNING MAPS WITH THIS IN MIND.
- Snipers have ludicrous range - Sniper KDR's generally exceed 10:1 - Snipers can 1 shot players with body shots - Infantry have no way of knowing past 100M where a player is - snipers can sit at distances over 500M+. The only way to find out where they are is to get shot by one. How fair is that? Not very
lol wrong. you don't hack an objective, if you still have a hostile shooting at you. whether it's an assault, a heavy or a sniper. lol if you really don't want to bother kill the sniper, the least you can do is move around while you hack to somewhat minimize your chances of getting shot in the head, and if 3 of you are hacking that objective, it would take nothing short of a Thale's to clear you off that objective. Who said anything about a vehicle? You actually do that g@y, useless bs?
- that's because they are snipers. (Are you okay? lol) - Snipers don't have trouble killing anything... at long-range, as they're supposed. - Snipers will kill fresh out of the academy players with 1-shot usually yes. As a rule of thumb, you should make sure you have no LESS than 450 ehp, to resist getting OHKd by a body shot from any sniper, even a charge. (You're welcome.) - lol what sniper is pulling off 500m kills anymore unless he pulls out a Thale's? We have active scanners now. Too lazy to use one of those too?
Didn't I tell you to fvck off? |
Jack McReady
DUST University Ivy League
554
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 12:19:00 -
[20] - Quote
no more useless sniper camping on a spot far away getting 2 kills per game and do nothing else. there are plenty of good sniper spots, working as intended.
also there is something calling risk vs. reward. if you fully expect to get rewarded by staying in safety all day long and getting a few kills then you are truly a scrub and just insulted your own intelligence. wake up and get out of your tunnelvision. |
|
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
952
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 12:30:00 -
[21] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:Who hey hey less of the monkey, I may found it easy but thats not the point!! ANYONE can do it, the old maps are risk free and open, now you might have to move into about 90m your flipping your lid!!
(I refuse to let one smacktard derail the thread.)
90m is a sweet spot for weapons like the tactical assautlt rifle, and scrambler rifle. That's no place for a sniper to be, unless he too uses a TAC AR or a SCR.
Hm. Sniper Rifles are quickly finding themselves to be useless weapons if CCP continues on this track.
For those saying that sniper rifles can still kill up close. I say this: There are weapons more efficient for the ranges that you are using your sniper rifles at. I've eaten a fair share of my fellow snipers, by simply using a charged scrambler shot.
For those recognizing that sniper rifles, and long range playstyles have been unfairly gimped, I say this:
I wouldn't have minded CCP's new direction if it was limited to only a few generated sockets, but the intention is to make ALL SOCKETS long-range attack proof. That is an unfair problem.
Consider this map. The "old bridge map":
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=80611&find=unread
Some objectives are within the skyfire cannon base or "city" as well call it. We all know how it's impossible to hit objective C with long-range attacks. The area around objective C is a well designed choke point that is immune to long range attack, but at least, the ENTIRE socket isn't. Snipers can fight with their friends WITHIN the socket, at positions where enemy fire can be evaded.
The best designed socket, is the socket where EVERYONE can participate, in turn the best designed maps are the ones where such flexible sockets exist.
This map on the other hand is good for Skirmish. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=80607&find=unread There are two objectives readily exposed to long-range attacks, and two objectives under the buildings, that are not as exposed. For snipers to get the two covered objectives requires them to take angles where they are readily exposed and easy to deal with it. Again, BALANCED SOCKETS. Where a mix of covered objectives and open objectives exist. That is the more FAIR route to take, as it enables ALL players to contribute to a fight. Sniper, Assault, Tanker, and Dropship pilot alike! |
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
952
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 12:34:00 -
[22] - Quote
Jack McReady wrote:no more useless sniper camping on a spot far away getting 2 kills per game and do nothing else. there are plenty of good sniper spots, working as intended.
also there is something calling risk vs. reward. if you fully expect to get rewarded by staying in safety all day long and getting a few kills then you are truly a scrub and just insulted your own intelligence. wake up and get out of your tunnelvision.
You're wrong.
The new maps mean that you are going to have MORE 'useless snipers camping on spots far away getting 2 kills per game and doing nothing else.'
I'm not the one with tunnel vision here.
The "sniper spots" are NOT sniper spots, they are TAC AR and Scrambler positions, because those weapons are better suited at those positions and ranges. |
Monkey MAC
killer taxi company General Tso's Alliance
508
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 12:40:00 -
[23] - Quote
Jathniel wrote:Jack McReady wrote:no more useless sniper camping on a spot far away getting 2 kills per game and do nothing else. there are plenty of good sniper spots, working as intended.
also there is something calling risk vs. reward. if you fully expect to get rewarded by staying in safety all day long and getting a few kills then you are truly a scrub and just insulted your own intelligence. wake up and get out of your tunnelvision. You're wrong. The new maps mean that you are going to have MORE 'useless snipers camping on spots far away getting 2 kills per game and doing nothing else.' I'm not the one with tunnel vision here. The "sniper spots" are NOT sniper spots, they are TAC AR and Scrambler positions, because those weapons are better suited at those positions and ranges.
We beg to differ, but well I just can't bothered arguing all this again, I just did in a thread in general discussions, so im not wastingmy time again!!
But before I go, consider this, its a gallante socket pack, gallante hate long range so why would a gallantean make it easy for snipers? The caldari map pack has a lot more sniper spots by the looks of things!!
Ta-Ra!! |
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
952
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 12:46:00 -
[24] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:Jathniel wrote:Jack McReady wrote:no more useless sniper camping on a spot far away getting 2 kills per game and do nothing else. there are plenty of good sniper spots, working as intended.
also there is something calling risk vs. reward. if you fully expect to get rewarded by staying in safety all day long and getting a few kills then you are truly a scrub and just insulted your own intelligence. wake up and get out of your tunnelvision. You're wrong. The new maps mean that you are going to have MORE 'useless snipers camping on spots far away getting 2 kills per game and doing nothing else.' I'm not the one with tunnel vision here. The "sniper spots" are NOT sniper spots, they are TAC AR and Scrambler positions, because those weapons are better suited at those positions and ranges. We beg to differ, but well I just can't bothered arguing all this again, I just did in a thread in general discussions, so im not wastingmy time again!! But before I go, consider this, its a gallante socket pack, gallante hate long range so why would a gallantean make it easy for snipers? The caldari map pack has a lot more sniper spots by the looks of things!! Ta-Ra!!
No No no! It doesn't feel like an argument with you! I like you! lol
I would LOVE to believe that what you said is the case! It makes perfect sense!
BUT....!
That's not what was indicated by CCP LogicLoop, all he said was that eventually all sockets will adapt the new rule (of X meters by X meters, and total prevention of long range attack on objectives, and that is just NOT fair.)
But if you know something I don't then I salute you. |
Bendtner92
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1073
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 12:51:00 -
[25] - Quote
You won't be able to protect the hack point from afar, but you'll still be able to protect the area around the hack point from afar.
Being sniped while hacking was always stupid and I'm glad they've taken steps to prevent that in the future. |
Monkey MAC
killer taxi company General Tso's Alliance
508
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 12:58:00 -
[26] - Quote
Jathniel wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:Jathniel wrote:Jack McReady wrote:no more useless sniper camping on a spot far away getting 2 kills per game and do nothing else. there are plenty of good sniper spots, working as intended.
also there is something calling risk vs. reward. if you fully expect to get rewarded by staying in safety all day long and getting a few kills then you are truly a scrub and just insulted your own intelligence. wake up and get out of your tunnelvision. You're wrong. The new maps mean that you are going to have MORE 'useless snipers camping on spots far away getting 2 kills per game and doing nothing else.' I'm not the one with tunnel vision here. The "sniper spots" are NOT sniper spots, they are TAC AR and Scrambler positions, because those weapons are better suited at those positions and ranges. We beg to differ, but well I just can't bothered arguing all this again, I just did in a thread in general discussions, so im not wastingmy time again!! But before I go, consider this, its a gallante socket pack, gallante hate long range so why would a gallantean make it easy for snipers? The caldari map pack has a lot more sniper spots by the looks of things!! Ta-Ra!! No No no! It doesn't feel like an argument with you! I like you! lol I would LOVE to believe that what you said is the case! It makes perfect sense! BUT....! That's not what was indicated by CCP LogicLoop, all he said was that eventually all sockets will adapt the new rule (of X meters by X meters, and total prevention of long range attack on objectives, and that is just NOT fair.) But if you know something I don't then I salute you.
Ok apologise for your comment on me being a smack- and I will discuss, my understanding was that yes the hacking panel would be blocked! Something I believe is fair, if you want to sfop them from hacking then it makes sense to stop him before he gets there right?
And a sniper can always set RE on it!! What I heard is the whole mapsmwont be anti sniper persay, but to get the good shots an views yku need to be exposed, the better the view the more exposed you are, I mean the balcony at b on the new gallante socket screams sniping point to me, but you need your head on a swivel and some points in passive prescion!! |
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
952
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 13:04:00 -
[27] - Quote
Bendtner92 wrote:You won't be able to protect the hack point from afar, but you'll still be able to protect the area around the hack point from afar.
Being sniped while hacking was always stupid and I'm glad they've taken steps to prevent that in the future.
Bendtner...
Being SHOT while hacking is always stupid, it makes no difference. That isn't solely a sniper problem.
The problems of objective spawning were brought up a long time ago! (But that horse died, along with debate to address numerous other broken aspects of this game....)
I can't believe how many problems people want to pin on snipers right now.
Has anyone even really tried "LONG-RANGE" sniping on the new maps? Not talking just about the sockets, I mean the entire map. There is no covering the objective area from afar.
My definition of long range is beyond 250m.
Nevermind, there is no interest in logic or game balance here. People didn't like something, and now it's gone. End of story. Game Balance be damned. I haven't been a dedicated sniper for months anyway, because CCP simply kept breaking it more and more. |
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
953
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 13:10:00 -
[28] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:Jathniel wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:Jathniel wrote:Jack McReady wrote:no more useless sniper camping on a spot far away getting 2 kills per game and do nothing else. there are plenty of good sniper spots, working as intended.
also there is something calling risk vs. reward. if you fully expect to get rewarded by staying in safety all day long and getting a few kills then you are truly a scrub and just insulted your own intelligence. wake up and get out of your tunnelvision. You're wrong. The new maps mean that you are going to have MORE 'useless snipers camping on spots far away getting 2 kills per game and doing nothing else.' I'm not the one with tunnel vision here. The "sniper spots" are NOT sniper spots, they are TAC AR and Scrambler positions, because those weapons are better suited at those positions and ranges. We beg to differ, but well I just can't bothered arguing all this again, I just did in a thread in general discussions, so im not wastingmy time again!! But before I go, consider this, its a gallante socket pack, gallante hate long range so why would a gallantean make it easy for snipers? The caldari map pack has a lot more sniper spots by the looks of things!! Ta-Ra!! No No no! It doesn't feel like an argument with you! I like you! lol I would LOVE to believe that what you said is the case! It makes perfect sense! BUT....! That's not what was indicated by CCP LogicLoop, all he said was that eventually all sockets will adapt the new rule (of X meters by X meters, and total prevention of long range attack on objectives, and that is just NOT fair.) But if you know something I don't then I salute you. Ok apologise for your comment on me being a smack- and I will discuss, my understanding was that yes the hacking panel would be blocked! Something I believe is fair, if you want to sfop them from hacking then it makes sense to stop him before he gets there right? And a sniper can always set RE on it!! What I heard is the whole mapsmwont be anti sniper persay, but to get the good shots an views yku need to be exposed, the better the view the more exposed you are, I mean the balcony at b on the new gallante socket screams sniping point to me, but you need your head on a swivel and some points in passive prescion!!
Wasn't calling you a name. Was calling 'blahblah Noobface' or whatever his name was that. "Smacktard" just suits him better, than whatever he calls himself.
I'll have to take a look at that position again, but if it's the one I think you mean, I'll have to say, again, that a different weapon would be better at objective B's coverage.
Whatever, nevermind. Don't bother, I give up. I'm fighting this battle alone, and that will never get anything adjusted. |
Bendtner92
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1073
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 13:12:00 -
[29] - Quote
Jathniel wrote:Has anyone even really tried "LONG-RANGE" sniping on the new maps? Not talking just about the sockets, I mean the entire map. There is no covering the objective area from afar.
My definition of long range is beyond 250m. Actually I've been sniping a little on the some of the new maps, and there's certainly some areas where you can still guard the area around an objective pretty effectively (from afar).
Do note that you likely won't be able to protect much else than the area just around the objective, but that's how it should be in my opinion. A sniper should be changing positions throughout a match and not just sit in the same spot covering several objectives.
As I usually run solo I haven't been sniping that much though, since sniping when running solo won't win matches. |
Monkey MAC
killer taxi company General Tso's Alliance
511
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 13:14:00 -
[30] - Quote
Jathniel wrote:Bendtner92 wrote:You won't be able to protect the hack point from afar, but you'll still be able to protect the area around the hack point from afar.
Being sniped while hacking was always stupid and I'm glad they've taken steps to prevent that in the future. Bendtner... Being SHOT while hacking is always stupid, it makes no difference. That isn't solely a sniper problem. The problems of objective spawning were brought up a long time ago! (But that horse died, along with debate to address numerous other broken aspects of this game....) I can't believe how many problems people want to pin on snipers right now. Has anyone even really tried "LONG-RANGE" sniping on the new maps? Not talking just about the sockets, I mean the entire map. There is no covering the objective area from afar. My definition of long range is beyond 250m. Nevermind, there is no interest in logic or game balance here. People didn't like something, and now it's gone. End of story. Game Balance be damned. I haven't been a dedicated sniper for months anyway, because CCP simply kept breaking it more and more.
Maybe that is the problem Jathneil, MY definition of long range is about 90m or so, I have always considered tac rifles to be sniper assault rifle hybrids, like a sniper just without the real long zoom!!
But prehaps be near the objective and cover it from there? If your a scout chances if you miss you can stab him in the back while hacks!
|
|
Jack McReady
DUST University Ivy League
555
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 13:26:00 -
[31] - Quote
90 meter is definately NOT TAC AR spot. TAC AR can deal a bit of damage at such ranges but killing someone is a different story. tac deals around 45% of its damage at 90 meters. |
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
953
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 13:28:00 -
[32] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:Jathniel wrote:Bendtner92 wrote:You won't be able to protect the hack point from afar, but you'll still be able to protect the area around the hack point from afar.
Being sniped while hacking was always stupid and I'm glad they've taken steps to prevent that in the future. Bendtner... Being SHOT while hacking is always stupid, it makes no difference. That isn't solely a sniper problem. The problems of objective spawning were brought up a long time ago! (But that horse died, along with debate to address numerous other broken aspects of this game....) I can't believe how many problems people want to pin on snipers right now. Has anyone even really tried "LONG-RANGE" sniping on the new maps? Not talking just about the sockets, I mean the entire map. There is no covering the objective area from afar. My definition of long range is beyond 250m. Nevermind, there is no interest in logic or game balance here. People didn't like something, and now it's gone. End of story. Game Balance be damned. I haven't been a dedicated sniper for months anyway, because CCP simply kept breaking it more and more. Maybe that is the problem Jathneil, MY definition of long range is about 90m or so, I have always considered tac rifles to be sniper assault rifle hybrids, like a sniper just without the real long zoom!! But prehaps be near the objective and cover it from there? If your a scout chances if you miss you can stab him in the back while hacks!
Yeah, this is entirely a subjective thing. Wow.
I consider 100m utility weapon range. That's the range of ARs, TAC ARs, Scramblers, and to a degree Mass Drivers.
The way I understand a sniper rifle in this game should be used (because of how it's sway penalty, etc works), is that it MUST be used beyond assault rifle range, otherwise the assault rifle is simply better to use (no sway, higher dps, etc.). I can see NO logical reason to use a sniper rifle at or within 100m, with the prevalence of utility weapons and active scanners... it makes no sense to me, and seems utterly stupid and suicidal.
To me, 100m is so close, that if you're going to BOTHER get that close, you may as well use a weapon that you can assault with, and that's what I do quite well, with an imperial scrambler rifle. The closest I would get is 150m with a sniper rifle. At 150m, the utility weapons won't dps you fast enough to kill you; you have time to land a couple shots, and you can still pick up and go before they get within 100m. That's what I did with sniper rifles on Ambushes before hand. But on these new maps, you have to get so close, it's not even practical. Not only are you getting really close, but you still don't have an angle on the objective. I just can't see this as fair, once uplinks are inside, sniping is useless. You're almost always better off running an AR.
The only way I can think of remedying this is to prevent uplinks from being dropped within a certain range of the objective. Like 30m or so. |
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
953
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 13:30:00 -
[33] - Quote
Jack McReady wrote:90 meter is definately NOT TAC AR spot. TAC AR can deal a bit of damage at such ranges but killing someone is a different story. tac deals around 45% of its damage at 90 meters.
Well 90m is plenty fine for an Imperial Scrambler Rifle. o7
Look. I give up alright? I can't win this. No one likes Devil's Advocate, and an enemy of the majority is doomed to lose no matter his reasoning.
My indicator said that CCP Logibro made a post on this thread, but now I can't find it.
I'm guessing he changed his mind about saying anything (It probably wasn't a good thing).
I give up. It is what it is alright. So whatever.
Ready to lock this thread. |
Jack McReady
DUST University Ivy League
555
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 13:37:00 -
[34] - Quote
Jathniel wrote:Jack McReady wrote:90 meter is definately NOT TAC AR spot. TAC AR can deal a bit of damage at such ranges but killing someone is a different story. tac deals around 45% of its damage at 90 meters. Well 90m is plenty fine for an Imperial Scrambler Rifle. o7 Look. I give up alright? I can't win this. No one likes Devil's Advocate, and an enemy of the majority is doomed to lose no matter his reasoning. My indicator said that CCP Logibro made a post on this thread, but now I can't find it. I'm guessing he changed his mind about saying anything (It probably wasn't a good thing). I give up. It is what it is alright. So whatever. Ready to lock this thread. Imperial Scrambler rilfe deals around 30% of its damage at that range |
Monkey MAC
killer taxi company General Tso's Alliance
511
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 13:39:00 -
[35] - Quote
Jathniel wrote:Jack McReady wrote:90 meter is definately NOT TAC AR spot. TAC AR can deal a bit of damage at such ranges but killing someone is a different story. tac deals around 45% of its damage at 90 meters. Well 90m is plenty fine for an Imperial Scrambler Rifle. o7 Look. I give up alright? I can't win this. No one likes Devil's Advocate, and an enemy of the majority is doomed to lose no matter his reasoning. My indicator said that CCP Logibro made a post on this thread, but now I can't find it. I'm guessing he changed his mind about saying anything (It probably wasn't a good thing). I give up. It is what it is alright. So whatever. Ready to lock this thread.
No Jan lets keep going, we are starting to see a pattern, you see what you define as long range I see uber-long range, practically artillery range. To shotgunner long range is 20m after all.
But you see the reason I think the optimal on the sniper is so long because anything you see you hit for 100% Unlike the laser which is fixed in its position, the sniper hit at full even at 10m. Why would you allow that?
Also see the video, which shows a sniper look how close to the enemy he is, yet he is still incredibly powerful!! Its called fight gour own war, on the dust offical site, is the newest video!! |
Draco Cerberus
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
315
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 13:55:00 -
[36] - Quote
I am not normally a sniper but feel that it is in need of some sort of a buff terrain wise. Some thing to hide in or behind like that cloak CCP Wolfman promised or the suggested equipment "Dragon's Teeth" would be useful for snipers and provide some cover while they are picking where they are shooting. The whole idea that snipers need pads that CCP seems to have is ludicrous and to be perfectly clear it is completely ridiculous if they are going to protect everyone at the objective from snipers and not going to put a pad that is above the objective with good overwatch ability (like the top of the rings on the city map).
A sniper, by CCP design, has limited visibility close range with his rifle, scope sway at lower levels making moving to a new spot tedious and time consuming, and defenseless against anyone not in their scope's viewfinder. How does CCP want them to function? As a rag doll flopping on the ground waiting for an assault medic to come pick them up for wp? The "Designated Sniper Pads" are just as deadly perches for someone using an AR/MD/Forge/SMG/Knives when going to pick up the dead team mate too and for the one, possibly 2 bullets a sniper can put out from the locations that he needs to use a DS to get to (to subsequently get the thing shot down) are not worth firing for a death and the chance at no kills.
Sniping is a role that thrives on cover and is really designed with finding that perfect sniping cover in mind where you don't have to move for hours on end because movement makes you a target and easier to see in which case you are less effective. Considering we cannot go prone limiting sniper cover is a mistake, a very very bad mistake. In fact cover for all classes of player should be available on every map not just wide open buildings. IRL factories have machines to hide behind, gravel pits and forests have hills to hide behind and possibly some trees around the outside (tree trunks can block a 30/30 round easily enough) and the military in any country on any continent would likely not tell their sniper to "go down on one knee so you can't run and position yourself in the middle of a group of enemies forget about cover son your job is to snipe them before they get close enough to shoot".
The changes to shared squad vision are a big issue, in my mind, as well due to the benefit previously gained by having "eyes up high" to see troop movements. They were an at range spotter that could direct the squad to the enemy groups from anywhere on the map. Now, with the active scan sniper unbuff, we have people running in, scanning running scanning scanning scanning and asking where are the enemies right up until they get within range of the scanner. I find this annoying and would like at least to benefit from shared squad vision. I pay enough for my suits that I should at least have some benefit of intel about enemy positions without having to be within rifle range to find them. |
Monkey MAC
killer taxi company General Tso's Alliance
511
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 14:09:00 -
[37] - Quote
Draco Cerberus wrote:I am not normally a sniper but feel that it is in need of some sort of a buff terrain wise. Some thing to hide in or behind like that cloak CCP Wolfman promised or the suggested equipment "Dragon's Teeth" would be useful for snipers and provide some cover while they are picking where they are shooting. The whole idea that snipers need pads that CCP seems to have is ludicrous and to be perfectly clear it is completely ridiculous if they are going to protect everyone at the objective from snipers and not going to put a pad that is above the objective with good overwatch ability (like the top of the rings on the city map).
A sniper, by CCP design, has limited visibility close range with his rifle, scope sway at lower levels making moving to a new spot tedious and time consuming, and defenseless against anyone not in their scope's viewfinder. How does CCP want them to function? As a rag doll flopping on the ground waiting for an assault medic to come pick them up for wp? The "Designated Sniper Pads" are just as deadly perches for someone using an AR/MD/Forge/SMG/Knives when going to pick up the dead team mate too and for the one, possibly 2 bullets a sniper can put out from the locations that he needs to use a DS to get to (to subsequently get the thing shot down) are not worth firing for a death and the chance at no kills.
Sniping is a role that thrives on cover and is really designed with finding that perfect sniping cover in mind where you don't have to move for hours on end because movement makes you a target and easier to see in which case you are less effective. Considering we cannot go prone limiting sniper cover is a mistake, a very very bad mistake. In fact cover for all classes of player should be available on every map not just wide open buildings. IRL factories have machines to hide behind, gravel pits and forests have hills to hide behind and possibly some trees around the outside (tree trunks can block a 30/30 round easily enough) and the military in any country on any continent would likely not tell their sniper to "go down on one knee so you can't run and position yourself in the middle of a group of enemies forget about cover son your job is to snipe them before they get close enough to shoot".
The changes to shared squad vision are a big issue, in my mind, as well due to the benefit previously gained by having "eyes up high" to see troop movements. They were an at range spotter that could direct the squad to the enemy groups from anywhere on the map. Now, with the active scan sniper unbuff, we have people running in, scanning running scanning scanning scanning and asking where are the enemies right up until they get within range of the scanner. I find this annoying and would like at least to benefit from shared squad vision. I pay enough for my suits that I should at least have some benefit of intel about enemy positions without having to be within rifle range to find them.
You see my interpretation is that "sniper pads" are obvious and easily accessible, but in return you get a good view, but I think its important that you didn'f get him on the way there you can't get while he is hacking (if you are next to the panel, had the forethought to res thats a different matter) think of the scouts who aren't snipers, they get lit up like a christmas tree when they hack because the lights flash!!
As for recon duties, snipers can prehaps be reimbursed by means of equipment, attachements in T3 or something similar. I do agree a sniper now has to use vojce to convey enemy formations and something should be done! However if you send someone with a scanner they can be your spotter!!
Finally this game is centered around the idea of risk/reward, to be rewarded with good snipe points, you need to take the risk of being flanked, countersniped, shot by a passing stranger with a shotty! Head on a swivel! Doesn't the sniper skill make the time to stop sway shorter? This would allow you to come in and out of scope more often
|
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
953
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 14:22:00 -
[38] - Quote
Jack McReady wrote:Jathniel wrote:Jack McReady wrote:90 meter is definately NOT TAC AR spot. TAC AR can deal a bit of damage at such ranges but killing someone is a different story. tac deals around 45% of its damage at 90 meters. Well 90m is plenty fine for an Imperial Scrambler Rifle. o7 Look. I give up alright? I can't win this. No one likes Devil's Advocate, and an enemy of the majority is doomed to lose no matter his reasoning. My indicator said that CCP Logibro made a post on this thread, but now I can't find it. I'm guessing he changed his mind about saying anything (It probably wasn't a good thing). I give up. It is what it is alright. So whatever. Ready to lock this thread. Imperial Scrambler rilfe deals around 30% of its damage at that range
Oh right, silly me.
I failed to realized that you were implying it's inefficient to use a scrambler at 90m.
http://tinypic.com/r/2q1z41c/5
http://tinypic.com/r/9zu78x/5
I did these just for you so you can feel special. Okay darling?
You're not as accurate as me, I'm a sniper remember? I forgot that I was talking to an inferior breed of player. Please pardon me.
I may have overdid it just a little. Or do you need me to just do ONE KILL for you, just so you can be absolutely sure that it's plenty lethal in the hands of an accurate sniper?
*sarcasm aside* As I was saying, 90m is TAC AR and Scrambler Range (for snipers). Period, and since we are generally crouched when shooting, that means that all the DPS, whether it's at 30% or not, is going RIGHT into us, and right into you if we're shooting at you. That is NO place for a sniper rifle.
As a rule of thumb, if you can kill it with a regular rifle (AR, SCR) at a given range, you don't use a sniper rifle. Period.
EDIT: It's 35% btw |
Monkey MAC
killer taxi company General Tso's Alliance
511
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 14:30:00 -
[39] - Quote
Jathniel wrote:Jack McReady wrote:Jathniel wrote:Jack McReady wrote:90 meter is definately NOT TAC AR spot. TAC AR can deal a bit of damage at such ranges but killing someone is a different story. tac deals around 45% of its damage at 90 meters. Well 90m is plenty fine for an Imperial Scrambler Rifle. o7 Look. I give up alright? I can't win this. No one likes Devil's Advocate, and an enemy of the majority is doomed to lose no matter his reasoning. My indicator said that CCP Logibro made a post on this thread, but now I can't find it. I'm guessing he changed his mind about saying anything (It probably wasn't a good thing). I give up. It is what it is alright. So whatever. Ready to lock this thread. Imperial Scrambler rilfe deals around 30% of its damage at that range Oh right, silly me. I failed to realized that you were implying it's inefficient to use a scrambler at 90m. http://tinypic.com/r/2q1z41c/5http://tinypic.com/r/9zu78x/5I did these just for you so you can feel special. Okay darling? You're not as accurate as me. I forgot that I was talking to an inferior breed of player. Please pardon me. I may have over did it. Or do you need me to just do ONE KILL for you, just so you can be absolutely sure that it's plenty lethal in the hands of an accurate sniper?
Any weapon can be used beyond its optimal and still achieve results I kill guys at 50m with a scrambler pistol! But the point he is trying to make is a sniper at those kind of ranges can match it, which also stems my belief of where long range starts.
By the way did you see the video or would like me to link it?
|
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
953
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 14:50:00 -
[40] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:Jathniel wrote:Jack McReady wrote:Jathniel wrote:Jack McReady wrote:90 meter is definately NOT TAC AR spot. TAC AR can deal a bit of damage at such ranges but killing someone is a different story. tac deals around 45% of its damage at 90 meters. Well 90m is plenty fine for an Imperial Scrambler Rifle. o7 Look. I give up alright? I can't win this. No one likes Devil's Advocate, and an enemy of the majority is doomed to lose no matter his reasoning. My indicator said that CCP Logibro made a post on this thread, but now I can't find it. I'm guessing he changed his mind about saying anything (It probably wasn't a good thing). I give up. It is what it is alright. So whatever. Ready to lock this thread. Imperial Scrambler rilfe deals around 30% of its damage at that range Oh right, silly me. I failed to realized that you were implying it's inefficient to use a scrambler at 90m. http://tinypic.com/r/2q1z41c/5http://tinypic.com/r/9zu78x/5I did these just for you so you can feel special. Okay darling? You're not as accurate as me. I forgot that I was talking to an inferior breed of player. Please pardon me. I may have over did it. Or do you need me to just do ONE KILL for you, just so you can be absolutely sure that it's plenty lethal in the hands of an accurate sniper? Any weapon can be used beyond its optimal and still achieve results I kill guys at 50m with a scrambler pistol! But the point he is trying to make is a sniper at those kind of ranges can match it, which also stems my belief of where long range starts. By the way did you see the video or would like me to link it?
lol tell that to the other guy who somehow believes that efficient killing won't happen at that range with a scrambler. he can verify with CCP if he wants to.
That battle was at 0945am Eastern Time (9-17-2013). fyi. Just another day in the life of a fire support logi. At your service. o7
MAC, I saw that video way back when, and myself a few others just laughed our asses off at it. It's false advertising kind of. lol Idk about you, but I ALWAYS see snipers when they perch on that rooftop, and especially at that corner. You know what happens? Scrambler charge shot to the face, or an Overwatch Sniper takes care of them. lol
I mean, LOL @ the sniper that was shooting crouched on the ground! Where does CCP get such footage? It can't possibly be in real pub matches. If you're on the ground within 100m, you're using an AR or a Scrambler. Period. There is no excuse to be using a sniper rifle. It's idiotic and suicidal. Why do you think you never, ever, ever, EVERRRR see that in PC matches? lol
Also LOL @ the guy that came up behind the heavy and couldn't kill him! Also false advertising! lmao The guy clearly stops shooting, purposefully, so that the Heavy can kill him.
If you get the drop on a crouching heavy and you have an AR, that Heavy is dead, proto or not. lol That smg will NOT beat a caldari suit fast enough.
I know your main point was the range that the sniper was working from.... what I'm saying is, is that operating that way as a sniper in this game is sheer stupidity. If that sniper had a cloaking device, it would be more practical to move up, that way only scanners and good eyes can detect you. The best way to snipe is to plan your areas of focus out of enemy offensive range, anticipate enemy movements on the field, anticipate when flankers will come to you (and have a plan if and when they do), and finally position yourself to minimize the chance of counter snipers that aren't within your FOV, from getting an angle on you. That's the best way to maximize the amount of time you can throw sniper fire in support of your squad. The time you spend, CONSTANTLY relocating (because ppl think it's bad for a sniper to sit still), is time that could have been spent making kills and making saves, and preventing the enemy from doing or attempting.
At that point, you're better off picking up an AR again, because you'll still be running around, but at least you'll be able to kill vital targets more often. |
|
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
953
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 15:03:00 -
[41] - Quote
Draco Cerberus wrote:I am not normally a sniper but feel that it is in need of some sort of a buff terrain wise. Some thing to hide in or behind like that cloak CCP Wolfman promised or the suggested equipment "Dragon's Teeth" would be useful for snipers and provide some cover while they are picking where they are shooting. The whole idea that snipers need pads that CCP seems to have is ludicrous and to be perfectly clear it is completely ridiculous if they are going to protect everyone at the objective from snipers and not going to put a pad that is above the objective with good overwatch ability (like the top of the rings on the city map).
A sniper, by CCP design, has limited visibility close range with his rifle, scope sway at lower levels making moving to a new spot tedious and time consuming, and defenseless against anyone not in their scope's viewfinder. How does CCP want them to function? As a rag doll flopping on the ground waiting for an assault medic to come pick them up for wp? The "Designated Sniper Pads" are just as deadly perches for someone using an AR/MD/Forge/SMG/Knives when going to pick up the dead team mate too and for the one, possibly 2 bullets a sniper can put out from the locations that he needs to use a DS to get to (to subsequently get the thing shot down) are not worth firing for a death and the chance at no kills.
Sniping is a role that thrives on cover and is really designed with finding that perfect sniping cover in mind where you don't have to move for hours on end because movement makes you a target and easier to see in which case you are less effective. Considering we cannot go prone limiting sniper cover is a mistake, a very very bad mistake. In fact cover for all classes of player should be available on every map not just wide open buildings. IRL factories have machines to hide behind, gravel pits and forests have hills to hide behind and possibly some trees around the outside (tree trunks can block a 30/30 round easily enough) and the military in any country on any continent would likely not tell their sniper to "go down on one knee so you can't run and position yourself in the middle of a group of enemies forget about cover son your job is to snipe them before they get close enough to shoot".
The changes to shared squad vision are a big issue, in my mind, as well due to the benefit previously gained by having "eyes up high" to see troop movements. They were an at range spotter that could direct the squad to the enemy groups from anywhere on the map. Now, with the active scan sniper unbuff, we have people running in, scanning running scanning scanning scanning and asking where are the enemies right up until they get within range of the scanner. I find this annoying and would like at least to benefit from shared squad vision. I pay enough for my suits that I should at least have some benefit of intel about enemy positions without having to be within rifle range to find them.
Thank you so much. He articulates better than I do. Snipers relied on Squad Vision to aid their squad and team at ultra long range. Someone in the team or squad would point at an enemy sniper, effectively painting the sniper for us, then we get to work and countersnipe them. Meanwhile, our pals on the ground can continue kicking ass undisturbed.
Are there really those MANY people that have never experienced good sniper support, that they leap for joy when sniper efficiency drops?
What you mention about cover is why I proposed eliminating sniper sway during movement while they are crouched, in the other thread. Since they're much closer to the fighting now, the LEAST they could get is the ability to sneak back and forth from cover while crouched without losing their aim in ADS.
I've seen too many fire support snipers just SIT THERE, trying their BEST to "bet it all" on pulling off a 2nd or 3rd sniper round, meanwhile they're shot into ribbons, before they can land a second hit. Why do they sit there? Because they know that IF they move even a little they will lose the chance to make that shot. Meanwhile, their target is strafing all over the damn place and just pissing DPS all over them! (and that is why snipers stay FAR AWAY) |
Monkey MAC
killer taxi company General Tso's Alliance
512
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 15:05:00 -
[42] - Quote
Yes its not the best example, and clearly rigged. But your right my point is indeed that snipers can work at ~100m effectively, while you may have taken a guy down at 96mI doubt it would have been as fast as a sniper, and other drawbacks from said rifle will put you at disadvantage!!
Now I cannot deny you have theory of sniping down, nor would I, but also consider that in a game full of immortal mercenaries the traditional tactics don't always work.
For example, that spot inside the research facility also allows you to see out onto barren land, and if sit near the reactor column in the middle you can see another swathe of open terrain to snipe across again!
The best spots are the ones anyone can get to, but it also allows you to reposition faster as well, swings amd roundabouts you know? |
ShinyJay
Destruction Reapers The Superpowers
100
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 15:15:00 -
[43] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:Yes its not the best example, and clearly rigged. But your right my point is indeed that snipers can work at ~100m effectively, while you may have taken a guy down at 96mI doubt it would have been as fast as a sniper, and other drawbacks from said rifle will put you at disadvantage!!
Now I cannot deny you have theory of sniping down, nor would I, but also consider that in a game full of immortal mercenaries the traditional tactics don't always work.
For example, that spot inside the research facility also allows you to see out onto barren land, and if sit near the reactor column in the middle you can see another swathe of open terrain to snipe across again!
The best spots are the ones anyone can get to, but it also allows you to reposition faster as well, swings amd roundabouts you know?
but are they good for snipers to be? or tac AR? because of the direction this game is taking, it's like it's forcing me to use the AR of any variant for all of my needs. if CCP is gonna go that direction, tweak the snipers a bit to help them get along the new terrain so they can do part of their job well. i don't mind if my sniper can't operate well between 1-90 meters, but if we have to be that close now, make it fair for snipers to be able to handle it. |
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
954
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 15:16:00 -
[44] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:Yes its not the best example, and clearly rigged. But your right my point is indeed that snipers can work at ~100m effectively, while you may have taken a guy down at 96mI doubt it would have been as fast as a sniper, and other drawbacks from said rifle will put you at disadvantage!!
Now I cannot deny you have theory of sniping down, nor would I, but also consider that in a game full of immortal mercenaries the traditional tactics don't always work.
For example, that spot inside the research facility also allows you to see out onto barren land, and if sit near the reactor column in the middle you can see another swathe of open terrain to snipe across again!
The best spots are the ones anyone can get to, but it also allows you to reposition faster as well, swings amd roundabouts you know?
That sniping theory is literally how every good sniper I have EVER observed, has ever done. From Sleepy Zan, to Immuto, to Heavenly Daughter, to trollsroyce... I can list a few more names.
Trying to find a sniper is supposed to be like playing "Where is Waldo?" not "Whack-a-Mole!". Sleepy Zan took it an extra step and told me a few more things, and it's common sense, and it's sad that we don't have a few more snipers that do this, but he said, "Pretty much, if you see your guys somewhere else, but you can capture something real quick, like the CRU, just go for it, then you can go back. You can pull off using your sniper rifle up close in emergencies if you hold a strafe and try to line it up. It takes practice, and you can't rely on it, but it's rewarding if you get it down."
Good snipers always know when to switch things up. These sweeping map changes were not the way to go about things. |
Monkey MAC
killer taxi company General Tso's Alliance
512
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 15:18:00 -
[45] - Quote
ShinyJay wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:Yes its not the best example, and clearly rigged. But your right my point is indeed that snipers can work at ~100m effectively, while you may have taken a guy down at 96mI doubt it would have been as fast as a sniper, and other drawbacks from said rifle will put you at disadvantage!!
Now I cannot deny you have theory of sniping down, nor would I, but also consider that in a game full of immortal mercenaries the traditional tactics don't always work.
For example, that spot inside the research facility also allows you to see out onto barren land, and if sit near the reactor column in the middle you can see another swathe of open terrain to snipe across again!
The best spots are the ones anyone can get to, but it also allows you to reposition faster as well, swings amd roundabouts you know? but are they good for snipers to be? or tac AR? because of the direction this game is taking, it's like it's forcing me to use the AR of any variant for all of my needs. if CCP is gonna go that direction, tweak the snipers a bit to help them get along the new terrain so they can do part of their job well. i don't mind if my sniper can't operate well between 1-90 meters, but if we have to be that close now, make it fair for snipers to be able to handle it.
What like an assault varient, we could ask for that I guess? |
ShinyJay
Destruction Reapers The Superpowers
100
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 15:20:00 -
[46] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:ShinyJay wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:Yes its not the best example, and clearly rigged. But your right my point is indeed that snipers can work at ~100m effectively, while you may have taken a guy down at 96mI doubt it would have been as fast as a sniper, and other drawbacks from said rifle will put you at disadvantage!!
Now I cannot deny you have theory of sniping down, nor would I, but also consider that in a game full of immortal mercenaries the traditional tactics don't always work.
For example, that spot inside the research facility also allows you to see out onto barren land, and if sit near the reactor column in the middle you can see another swathe of open terrain to snipe across again!
The best spots are the ones anyone can get to, but it also allows you to reposition faster as well, swings amd roundabouts you know? but are they good for snipers to be? or tac AR? because of the direction this game is taking, it's like it's forcing me to use the AR of any variant for all of my needs. if CCP is gonna go that direction, tweak the snipers a bit to help them get along the new terrain so they can do part of their job well. i don't mind if my sniper can't operate well between 1-90 meters, but if we have to be that close now, make it fair for snipers to be able to handle it. What like an assault varient, we could ask for that I guess?
or a toned down sway while moving and ADS, something that helps that sniper a bit. the assault variant of the sniper is the tac AR though, since it's suppose to act like one |
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
954
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 15:22:00 -
[47] - Quote
Put the wrong screenshot up in the previous post.
Here's the rest.
http://tinypic.com/r/1zc1n53/5
Just so folks can see, you don't just use a scrambler or tac ar from that range, but you can do it efficiently. The sniper rifle on the other hand...? Nope. Not having it. Against pro players, you will get LIT UP, if you dare engage them within 100m with a sniper. |
Monkey MAC
killer taxi company General Tso's Alliance
512
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 15:25:00 -
[48] - Quote
Jathniel wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:Yes its not the best example, and clearly rigged. But your right my point is indeed that snipers can work at ~100m effectively, while you may have taken a guy down at 96mI doubt it would have been as fast as a sniper, and other drawbacks from said rifle will put you at disadvantage!!
Now I cannot deny you have theory of sniping down, nor would I, but also consider that in a game full of immortal mercenaries the traditional tactics don't always work.
For example, that spot inside the research facility also allows you to see out onto barren land, and if sit near the reactor column in the middle you can see another swathe of open terrain to snipe across again!
The best spots are the ones anyone can get to, but it also allows you to reposition faster as well, swings amd roundabouts you know? That sniping theory is literally how every good sniper I have EVER observed, has ever done. From Sleepy Zan, to Immuto, to Heavenly Daughter, to trollsroyce... I can list a few more names. Trying to find a sniper is supposed to be like playing "Where is Waldo?" not "Whack-a-Mole!". Sleepy Zan took it an extra step and told me a few more things, and it's common sense, and it's sad that we don't have a few more snipers that do this, but he said, "Pretty much, if you see your guys somewhere else, but you can capture something real quick, like the CRU, just go for it, then you can go back. You can pull off using your sniper rifle up close in emergencies if you hold a strafe and try to line it up. It takes practice, and you can't rely on it, but it's rewarding if you get it down." Good snipers always know when to switch things up. These sweeping map changes were not the way to go about things. If I might point out, these new maps are a different challenge for everyone, my mass driver doesn't have the same use in all the same places, I too have had to adapt, the maps are big change for everyone, but if you keep the sniper stuff you told me it will be fine!!
|
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
954
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 15:26:00 -
[49] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:ShinyJay wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:Yes its not the best example, and clearly rigged. But your right my point is indeed that snipers can work at ~100m effectively, while you may have taken a guy down at 96mI doubt it would have been as fast as a sniper, and other drawbacks from said rifle will put you at disadvantage!!
Now I cannot deny you have theory of sniping down, nor would I, but also consider that in a game full of immortal mercenaries the traditional tactics don't always work.
For example, that spot inside the research facility also allows you to see out onto barren land, and if sit near the reactor column in the middle you can see another swathe of open terrain to snipe across again!
The best spots are the ones anyone can get to, but it also allows you to reposition faster as well, swings amd roundabouts you know? but are they good for snipers to be? or tac AR? because of the direction this game is taking, it's like it's forcing me to use the AR of any variant for all of my needs. if CCP is gonna go that direction, tweak the snipers a bit to help them get along the new terrain so they can do part of their job well. i don't mind if my sniper can't operate well between 1-90 meters, but if we have to be that close now, make it fair for snipers to be able to handle it. What like an assault varient, we could ask for that I guess?
All I would do is elimate sway while crouched for now... If the sniper rifle needs to get adjusted, it should be incremental.
Most fire support sniper rifle users would probably be perfectly content with that. |
Monkey MAC
killer taxi company General Tso's Alliance
512
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 15:27:00 -
[50] - Quote
ShinyJay wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:ShinyJay wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:Yes its not the best example, and clearly rigged. But your right my point is indeed that snipers can work at ~100m effectively, while you may have taken a guy down at 96mI doubt it would have been as fast as a sniper, and other drawbacks from said rifle will put you at disadvantage!!
Now I cannot deny you have theory of sniping down, nor would I, but also consider that in a game full of immortal mercenaries the traditional tactics don't always work.
For example, that spot inside the research facility also allows you to see out onto barren land, and if sit near the reactor column in the middle you can see another swathe of open terrain to snipe across again!
The best spots are the ones anyone can get to, but it also allows you to reposition faster as well, swings amd roundabouts you know? but are they good for snipers to be? or tac AR? because of the direction this game is taking, it's like it's forcing me to use the AR of any variant for all of my needs. if CCP is gonna go that direction, tweak the snipers a bit to help them get along the new terrain so they can do part of their job well. i don't mind if my sniper can't operate well between 1-90 meters, but if we have to be that close now, make it fair for snipers to be able to handle it. What like an assault varient, we could ask for that I guess? or a toned down sway while moving and ADS, something that helps that sniper a bit. the assault variant of the sniper is the tac AR though, since it's suppose to act like one
I can agree to that!! |
|
ShinyJay
Destruction Reapers The Superpowers
100
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 15:38:00 -
[51] - Quote
another thing that may help snipers out, is to re work it completely. not many will like it, but something has to be done. make the sniper's new absolute range around 200-250m, change the damage a bit, keep the crouch sway as is, tone down the ADS while moving sway a bit. not the best changes, possibly bad changes, but it should help out depending on the damage output. |
Jack McReady
DUST University Ivy League
555
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 15:44:00 -
[52] - Quote
Jathniel wrote:Jack McReady wrote:Jathniel wrote:Jack McReady wrote:90 meter is definately NOT TAC AR spot. TAC AR can deal a bit of damage at such ranges but killing someone is a different story. tac deals around 45% of its damage at 90 meters. Well 90m is plenty fine for an Imperial Scrambler Rifle. o7 Look. I give up alright? I can't win this. No one likes Devil's Advocate, and an enemy of the majority is doomed to lose no matter his reasoning. My indicator said that CCP Logibro made a post on this thread, but now I can't find it. I'm guessing he changed his mind about saying anything (It probably wasn't a good thing). I give up. It is what it is alright. So whatever. Ready to lock this thread. Imperial Scrambler rilfe deals around 30% of its damage at that range Oh right, silly me. I failed to realized that you were implying it's inefficient to use a scrambler at 90m. http://tinypic.com/r/1zc1n53/5http://tinypic.com/r/9zu78x/5I did these just for you so you can feel special. Okay darling? You're not as accurate as me, I'm a sniper remember? I forgot that I was talking to an inferior breed of player. Please pardon me. I may have overdid it just a little. Or do you need me to just do ONE KILL for you, just so you can be absolutely sure that it's plenty lethal in the hands of an accurate sniper? *sarcasm aside* As I was saying, 90m is TAC AR and Scrambler Range (for snipers). Period, and since we are generally crouched when shooting, that means that all the DPS, whether it's at 30% or not, is going RIGHT into us, and right into you if we're shooting at you. That is NO place for a sniper rifle. As a rule of thumb, if you can kill it with a regular rifle (AR, SCR) at a given range, you don't use a sniper rifle. Period. EDIT: It's 35% btw congratulations on finishing someone with low hp at long range, this does not make the AScr effective at that range though. it takes like 9 seconds to kill a brick tanked proto suit at that range which everyone is currently running and that is assuming every shot hits which is just no going to happen. I got a kill with plasma cannon across the whole map last weekend, applying your ret/\rded monkey logic means all snipers are doomed as soon as they spawn when a PLC is on the field.
you just insulted your own intelligence with that post. |
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
954
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 15:47:00 -
[53] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:ShinyJay wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:ShinyJay wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:Yes its not the best example, and clearly rigged. But your right my point is indeed that snipers can work at ~100m effectively, while you may have taken a guy down at 96mI doubt it would have been as fast as a sniper, and other drawbacks from said rifle will put you at disadvantage!!
Now I cannot deny you have theory of sniping down, nor would I, but also consider that in a game full of immortal mercenaries the traditional tactics don't always work.
For example, that spot inside the research facility also allows you to see out onto barren land, and if sit near the reactor column in the middle you can see another swathe of open terrain to snipe across again!
The best spots are the ones anyone can get to, but it also allows you to reposition faster as well, swings amd roundabouts you know? but are they good for snipers to be? or tac AR? because of the direction this game is taking, it's like it's forcing me to use the AR of any variant for all of my needs. if CCP is gonna go that direction, tweak the snipers a bit to help them get along the new terrain so they can do part of their job well. i don't mind if my sniper can't operate well between 1-90 meters, but if we have to be that close now, make it fair for snipers to be able to handle it. What like an assault varient, we could ask for that I guess? or a toned down sway while moving and ADS, something that helps that sniper a bit. the assault variant of the sniper is the tac AR though, since it's suppose to act like one I can agree to that!!
Again, the strength of the sniper was the Overwatch role, it was never very solid at Fire Support. Whenever we had a corp battle, before Uprising, CEO's or Director's would always put the call out between a handful of us, "Who's on Overwatch?" On many occasions, I didn't even shoot at hostiles. I was on the overview map tracking the movements of little white dots that were enemies. The ONLY time I would engage enemies, is if they started hacking the objective, or one of the squads called me to direct sniper fire in their direction. Otherwise, my voice was the main one on comms telling whatever was coming to whoever at wherever.
"Jath, I have 3 hostiles here at Bravo. Need support fire." "Negative, I do NOT have an angle, disengage to the south, draw them into my line of sight, we'll crossfire them."
or
"Jath, a guy slipped by me, and is heading to Alpha for the hack. You got a solution on him?" "Roger, tracking him now, I'll take the headshot when he stops for the hack. You will NOT need to spawn at alpha to defend it."
or
"This is Jath, I'm getting supressed by a counter-sniper. Incoming fire south of Charlie. I spot a nanohive on the overview map, he seems to be on the fuel tank." "Roger Jath, I'm at Charlie, I got him."
That is how a sniper is supposed to interact with his squad.
A lot of that is gone now, with how things work. The match belongs to the best strafer, not to the players with a diversified team that knows how to use every role. |
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
954
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 15:49:00 -
[54] - Quote
Jack McReady wrote:Jathniel wrote:Jack McReady wrote:Jathniel wrote:Jack McReady wrote:90 meter is definately NOT TAC AR spot. TAC AR can deal a bit of damage at such ranges but killing someone is a different story. tac deals around 45% of its damage at 90 meters. Well 90m is plenty fine for an Imperial Scrambler Rifle. o7 Look. I give up alright? I can't win this. No one likes Devil's Advocate, and an enemy of the majority is doomed to lose no matter his reasoning. My indicator said that CCP Logibro made a post on this thread, but now I can't find it. I'm guessing he changed his mind about saying anything (It probably wasn't a good thing). I give up. It is what it is alright. So whatever. Ready to lock this thread. Imperial Scrambler rilfe deals around 30% of its damage at that range Oh right, silly me. I failed to realized that you were implying it's inefficient to use a scrambler at 90m. http://tinypic.com/r/1zc1n53/5http://tinypic.com/r/9zu78x/5I did these just for you so you can feel special. Okay darling? You're not as accurate as me, I'm a sniper remember? I forgot that I was talking to an inferior breed of player. Please pardon me. I may have overdid it just a little. Or do you need me to just do ONE KILL for you, just so you can be absolutely sure that it's plenty lethal in the hands of an accurate sniper? *sarcasm aside* As I was saying, 90m is TAC AR and Scrambler Range (for snipers). Period, and since we are generally crouched when shooting, that means that all the DPS, whether it's at 30% or not, is going RIGHT into us, and right into you if we're shooting at you. That is NO place for a sniper rifle. As a rule of thumb, if you can kill it with a regular rifle (AR, SCR) at a given range, you don't use a sniper rifle. Period. EDIT: It's 35% btw congratulations on finishing someone with low hp at long range, this does not make the AScr effective at that range though. it takes like 9 seconds to kill a brick tanked proto suit at that range and that is assuming every shot hits which is just no going to happen. I got a kill with plasma cannon across the whole map last weekend, applying your ret/\rded monkey logic means all snipers are doomed as soon as they spawn when a PLC is on the field. you just insulted your own intelligence with that post.
No, you just insulted YOUR own intelligence. I used an Imperial Scrambler Rifle, and downed a proto caldari with 7-8 rounds at 90+m. I provided evidence.
Nowhere was a AScr "(assault scrambler rifle) used.
Get lost. Dumb fvck.
Just in case you DON'T understand.... the damage reduction apparently takes place across the top of your damage profile. Which is the LAST thing calculated. It does NOT reduce your BASE damage. Therefore bonus %ages are added BEFORE the reduction of damage profile at range occurs. That's why it's still so potent at range. |
Monkey MAC
killer taxi company General Tso's Alliance
513
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 15:57:00 -
[55] - Quote
You can still do that, I have found .4 much more tactical, I have met many snipers who run a different style, they run as squad support, I can imagine overwatch is a bit harder!
However that is prehaps something more attributed to a guy in a dropship!! |
Jack McReady
DUST University Ivy League
556
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 16:07:00 -
[56] - Quote
Jathniel wrote: No, you just insulted YOUR own intelligence. I used an Imperial Scrambler Rifle, and downed a proto caldari with 7-8 rounds at 90+m. I provided evidence.
Nowhere was a AScr "(assault scrambler rifle) used.
Get lost. Dumb fvck.
Just in case you DON'T understand.... the damage reduction apparently takes place across the top of your damage profile. Which is the LAST thing calculated. It does NOT reduce your BASE damage. Therefore bonus %ages are added BEFORE the reduction of damage profile at range occurs. That's why it's still so potent at range.
Here's the low down. With my proficiencies and damage mods i'm doing over 100 damage per shot vs. neutral target (neither armor nor shield). vs. shields. Now VS. SHIELDS. the +20% vs shields is calculated AFTER my proficiencies and damage mods. So lets put me about 100 damage. + 20%. 120 damage. 35% of 120? 42. Calculate headshot bonus, 7, 8, or 9 rounds.
Tell me again, that I need 9 seconds to kill someone at 90m... and make yourself look stupid... one more time. Straight I dare you. I double dare. Tell me that 9 seconds is necessary, one more god-damned time.
all your provided is that you got the last hit and that you are just bad at sniping, nothing else
you dont even get the basics of math prot tip: value x * bonus * penalty = value x * penatly * bonus here is a nice article explaining to you that order in multiplications does not matter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplication
oh and headshot bonus is just 50% and you know, suits have armor too. my proto suit brick tanked has slightly over 1k ehp. with your dmg per shot at 90 meters you would overheat before you would kill me even when I assume that all my HP are shields and you would hit everything in the head
but ok, you are the pro, everyone else is wrong, your are right. I guess there is no cure for your tunnelvision. |
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
959
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 16:23:00 -
[57] - Quote
Jack McReady wrote:Jathniel wrote: No, you just insulted YOUR own intelligence. I used an Imperial Scrambler Rifle, and downed a proto caldari with 7-8 rounds at 90+m. I provided evidence.
Nowhere was a AScr "(assault scrambler rifle) used.
Get lost. Dumb fvck.
Just in case you DON'T understand.... the damage reduction apparently takes place across the top of your damage profile. Which is the LAST thing calculated. It does NOT reduce your BASE damage. Therefore bonus %ages are added BEFORE the reduction of damage profile at range occurs. That's why it's still so potent at range.
Here's the low down. With my proficiencies and damage mods i'm doing over 100 damage per shot vs. neutral target (neither armor nor shield). vs. shields. Now VS. SHIELDS. the +20% vs shields is calculated AFTER my proficiencies and damage mods. So lets put me about 100 damage. + 20%. 120 damage. 35% of 120? 42. Calculate headshot bonus, 7, 8, or 9 rounds.
Tell me again, that I need 9 seconds to kill someone at 90m... and make yourself look stupid... one more time. Straight I dare you. I double dare. Tell me that 9 seconds is necessary, one more god-damned time.
all your provided is that you got the last hit and that you are just bad at sniping, nothing else you dont even get the basics of math prot tip: value x * bonus * penalty = value x * penalty * bonus here is a nice article explaining to you that order in multiplications does not matter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplicationheadshot bonus is 50% btw and suits have armor too. my proto suit brick tanked has slightly over 1k ehp. assuming non charged shots, everything hits in the head and all my hp are shields, well sorry to bust your bubbles but your weapon would overheat before you could my brick tank. but ok, you are the pro, everyone else is wrong, your are right. I guess there is no cure for your tunnelvision.
dude that's exactly how i described it. i just did it in literary terms. whatever. hey you tell me what it is, i tell you what happened. if you can't take my word or screenshot for it, then fine. gtfo.
regards. |
Jack McReady
DUST University Ivy League
556
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 16:25:00 -
[58] - Quote
Jathniel wrote:Jack McReady wrote:Jathniel wrote: No, you just insulted YOUR own intelligence. I used an Imperial Scrambler Rifle, and downed a proto caldari with 7-8 rounds at 90+m. I provided evidence.
Nowhere was a AScr "(assault scrambler rifle) used.
Get lost. Dumb fvck.
Just in case you DON'T understand.... the damage reduction apparently takes place across the top of your damage profile. Which is the LAST thing calculated. It does NOT reduce your BASE damage. Therefore bonus %ages are added BEFORE the reduction of damage profile at range occurs. That's why it's still so potent at range.
Here's the low down. With my proficiencies and damage mods i'm doing over 100 damage per shot vs. neutral target (neither armor nor shield). vs. shields. Now VS. SHIELDS. the +20% vs shields is calculated AFTER my proficiencies and damage mods. So lets put me about 100 damage. + 20%. 120 damage. 35% of 120? 42. Calculate headshot bonus, 7, 8, or 9 rounds.
Tell me again, that I need 9 seconds to kill someone at 90m... and make yourself look stupid... one more time. Straight I dare you. I double dare. Tell me that 9 seconds is necessary, one more god-damned time.
all your provided is that you got the last hit and that you are just bad at sniping, nothing else you dont even get the basics of math prot tip: value x * bonus * penalty = value x * penalty * bonus here is a nice article explaining to you that order in multiplications does not matter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplicationheadshot bonus is 50% btw and suits have armor too. my proto suit brick tanked has slightly over 1k ehp. assuming non charged shots, everything hits in the head and all my hp are shields, well sorry to bust your bubbles but your weapon would overheat before you could my brick tank. but ok, you are the pro, everyone else is wrong, your are right. I guess there is no cure for your tunnelvision. dude that's exactly how i described it. i just did it in literary terms. whatever. hey you tell me what it is, i tell you what happened. if you can't take my word or screenshot for it, then fine. gtfo. regards.. what is this? ignorance mode instead of tunnelvision now?
math have just shown you are wrong and I am right, deal with it.
PS: some math lessons would not hurt in your case too. |
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
959
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 16:29:00 -
[59] - Quote
Jack McReady wrote:Jathniel wrote:Jack McReady wrote:Jathniel wrote: No, you just insulted YOUR own intelligence. I used an Imperial Scrambler Rifle, and downed a proto caldari with 7-8 rounds at 90+m. I provided evidence.
Nowhere was a AScr "(assault scrambler rifle) used.
Get lost. Dumb fvck.
Just in case you DON'T understand.... the damage reduction apparently takes place across the top of your damage profile. Which is the LAST thing calculated. It does NOT reduce your BASE damage. Therefore bonus %ages are added BEFORE the reduction of damage profile at range occurs. That's why it's still so potent at range.
Here's the low down. With my proficiencies and damage mods i'm doing over 100 damage per shot vs. neutral target (neither armor nor shield). vs. shields. Now VS. SHIELDS. the +20% vs shields is calculated AFTER my proficiencies and damage mods. So lets put me about 100 damage. + 20%. 120 damage. 35% of 120? 42. Calculate headshot bonus, 7, 8, or 9 rounds.
Tell me again, that I need 9 seconds to kill someone at 90m... and make yourself look stupid... one more time. Straight I dare you. I double dare. Tell me that 9 seconds is necessary, one more god-damned time.
all your provided is that you got the last hit and that you are just bad at sniping, nothing else you dont even get the basics of math prot tip: value x * bonus * penalty = value x * penalty * bonus here is a nice article explaining to you that order in multiplications does not matter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplicationheadshot bonus is 50% btw and suits have armor too. my proto suit brick tanked has slightly over 1k ehp. assuming non charged shots, everything hits in the head and all my hp are shields, well sorry to bust your bubbles but your weapon would overheat before you could my brick tank. but ok, you are the pro, everyone else is wrong, your are right. I guess there is no cure for your tunnelvision. hey you tell me what it is, i tell you what happened. if you can't take my word or screenshot for it, then fine. gtfo. regards. what is this? ignorance mode instead of tunnelvision now? PS: some math lessons would not hurt in your case too.
The penalty is not counted against the base value. Judging from the speed that the target fell, the penalty is counted last. Whatever your damage is, minus the decreasing profile% at range.
Only a video will shut you up. I can't provide that right now. So stfu and gtfo. |
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
959
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 16:30:00 -
[60] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:You can still do that, I have found .4 much more tactical, I have met many snipers who run a different style, they run as squad support, I can imagine overwatch is a bit harder!
However that is prehaps something more attributed to a guy in a dropship!!
.4?
What do you mean? |
|
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
959
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 16:34:00 -
[61] - Quote
ShinyJay wrote:another thing that may help snipers out, is to re work it completely. not many will like it, but something has to be done. make the sniper's new absolute range around 200-250m, change the damage a bit, keep the crouch sway as is, tone down the ADS while moving sway a bit. not the best changes, possibly bad changes, but it should help out depending on the damage output.
The main problem for using the sniper rifle at ranges closer than 100m, IS the sway. No other weapon readily used at those ranges has it. If you reduce sway while standing, you run the risk of snipers becoming strafers, and this is a bad thing. But if you eliminate the sway while they are crouched, they will be able to use their cover better, and not just sit there getting shot up, because they don't want to miss the chance to finish off a target. |
Monkey MAC
killer taxi company General Tso's Alliance
515
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 16:38:00 -
[62] - Quote
Jathniel wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:You can still do that, I have found .4 much more tactical, I have met many snipers who run a different style, they run as squad support, I can imagine overwatch is a bit harder!
However that is prehaps something more attributed to a guy in a dropship!! .4? What do you mean? Uprising 1.4 |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic
5997
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 16:46:00 -
[63] - Quote
You were the guy who was complaining that the removal of sniping from the MCC would be so terrible to snipers, and that they should be able to snipe everyone from total immunity without risk. No offense, but it makes it kind of hard to take you seriously when you say CCP is anti-sniper. |
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
959
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 16:47:00 -
[64] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:Jathniel wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:You can still do that, I have found .4 much more tactical, I have met many snipers who run a different style, they run as squad support, I can imagine overwatch is a bit harder!
However that is prehaps something more attributed to a guy in a dropship!! .4? What do you mean? Uprising 1.4
Honestly, I found 1.4 to be perfect at first (since I'm not a dedicated sniper anymore), and I loved how the Aim Assist and Match Making, contributed greatly to us having these PERFECT matches. It felt more tactical the first few days, but nowadays im seeing a lot of the open field strafing again and 1-sided maps again, and I think that's because Aim Assist and Match Making were toned down in some way.
I don't know for sure, because I'm always operating at ranges where AA doesn't work, but matches have been getting bad and predictable again... and I don't know what happened. But somewhere along the way, tactics stopped mattering as much and .4 seems to have started trending back toward rush and strafe gameplay, in pub matches anyway. |
ShinyJay
Destruction Reapers The Superpowers
100
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 17:05:00 -
[65] - Quote
when i made that sniper suggestion, i myself am a dedicated sniper, i was thinking that sway wouldn't be removed when moving, but toned down a bit. even if it was a strafe gun, the 3-5 bullets would still be it's drawback anyways. I'm just tired of looking around for a perch that is away from combat with no vision. i have to be with my squad in order to snipe effectively and efficently, but they always get in the way of my scope and shots. the way i see it, people want snipers to play at assault ranges and only a few meters beyond it, without tweaking the sniper for such engagement. |
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
959
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 17:08:00 -
[66] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:You were the guy who was complaining that the removal of sniping from the MCC would be so terrible to snipers, and that they should be able to snipe everyone from total immunity without risk. No offense, but it makes it kind of hard to take you seriously when you say CCP is anti-sniper.
I'm sorry. You must have me confused with someone else.
Jathniel wrote:Sgt Buttscratch wrote:What are the top 3 things you enjoy about planetary conquest? 1. Winning 2. Alliance communication. 3. The star map
What are the top 3 things you would like to see changed? 1. Uselessness of owned districts. 2. Game modes 3. MCC sniping on all map
Pick one point about what you like and expand upon it if possible. Why do you like it?
Star map, it's just cool as **** and shows how big this could become if handled right
Pick one point about what you don't like and expand upon it if possible. Why do you not like it? 1. Uselessness of owned districts.
Right now once a district is taken...that's it, other than defending it once in a while. That is boring, tedious and is slowly turning players away from PC.
The fix (suggestions could be flawed) I) Let us use our districts, for training new players, role finesse, pilot test schools and inner corp/alliance test fights. II) Make the districts do something, other than offer clone count maximums Research facilities: All corp members get bonus' per research facility owned (example: Core dropsuit upgrade modules gain 1%) Barracks: +1%/hour SP gain, per barracks district held Cargo Hub: -5% cost for ISK items in market place Overview: the idea being that the ownership of these districts benefits the whole corp, and the want to have them would be furthered. III) Upgrading your districts, moving turrets, adding cargo containers/cover. IV) Being able to jump onto our district at any time to just purely **** around, Nova knife tanks and what not. QFT Source: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=948492#post948492
Jathniel wrote:Raynedog Lightstar wrote: I cant tell you feel very passionately about the subject which I find to be a good trait!
You definitely reinforced much of the general thought process from snipers. Thank you for bringing up the render distance thing, I totally forget to add that in.
Oh yeah. I waged war with feelings of wanting to quit the game, if Uprising didn't turn out to be satisfactory (which it did). CCP was going the wrong way for a LONG time when it came to the sniper's role. At one point, they eliminated a lot of ladders that existed in game, because people complained that snipers had too many perches to camp from (even though they were still close to the action). With the loss of their regular perches, snipers moved away into the distant hills and mountains, and again people complained that "snipers were too far away to kill" ('you don't say...'). So at one point, CCP tightened the red zones overall, and this forced snipers closer to the action. This had many negative side-effects. Aerial red zone was also tightened, so dropships couldnt get out of AA range. Blaster tanks raped everything. There was no where you could spawn, without immediately being within Assault Rifle and Laser Rifle range (in Ambush). Trying to force snipers to play at closer ranges using the red zone resulted in a very very broken game for them, and many others... and it took months to undo these problems. That was the entire Chromosome build. Sniping in Uprising is just 3 notches away from perfect though. First and foremost, the long-range player and object rendering is a BIG issue. Second is, the delay for damage to register when using the sniper rifles at times (though this isn't a consistent problem). Third, it would be very nice to have some ballistics for sniper rifles ala Battlefield 3 (but not necessary since our sniper "rifles" are railguns according to lore). But overall, snipers have more freedom of movement and more vantage points available to them now, and I am happy to see them flourishing. They can go into distant hills and mountains like they could Pre-Chromosome. And now they can snipe from in and ON the MCC. I compare MCC sniping to be a cheap shot similar to using a contact grenade, but I don't knock them over it. Much of the hit detection issues at long range seem to have been remedied, so there's no place a sniper can go, that another sniper can't reach. :) In the end though, I opted to go with an Assault Rifleman role. But I definitely feel a kinship with the snipers in this game. I know what their viewpoint is like. Source: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=927027#post927027
Complaining about the removal of MCC sniping? Nah, I don't think so. You definitely got me confused with someone.
I considered it a viable tactic, but regarded it as a cheap shot. Never once said that it would be detrimental to snipers if they couldn't do it. |
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
959
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 17:16:00 -
[67] - Quote
ShinyJay wrote:when i made that sniper suggestion, i myself am a dedicated sniper, i was thinking that sway wouldn't be removed when moving, but toned down a bit. even if it was a strafe gun, the 3-5 bullets would still be it's drawback anyways. I'm just tired of looking around for a perch that is away from combat with no vision. i have to be with my squad in order to snipe effectively and efficently, but they always get in the way of my scope and shots. the way i see it, people want snipers to play at assault ranges and only a few meters beyond it, without tweaking the sniper for such engagement.
if the sniper isn't up close as an easy kill.
they want it far away unable to shoot at anything important.
i'm just a guy that's trying to put a resistance on behalf of snipers, and by extension, niche players in general. but if something is problematic, im willing to recognize that. (like forge guns, though i haven't used one since 1.4 so i can't say for certain if there has been any change to it.) the forge gun and it's guaranteed long-range OHK is part of the reason why snipers are in this mess right now actually... |
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
959
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 17:30:00 -
[68] - Quote
Jack McReady wrote:Jathniel wrote:Jack McReady wrote:Jathniel wrote: No, you just insulted YOUR own intelligence. I used an Imperial Scrambler Rifle, and downed a proto caldari with 7-8 rounds at 90+m. I provided evidence.
Nowhere was a AScr "(assault scrambler rifle) used.
Get lost. Dumb fvck.
Just in case you DON'T understand.... the damage reduction apparently takes place across the top of your damage profile. Which is the LAST thing calculated. It does NOT reduce your BASE damage. Therefore bonus %ages are added BEFORE the reduction of damage profile at range occurs. That's why it's still so potent at range.
Here's the low down. With my proficiencies and damage mods i'm doing over 100 damage per shot vs. neutral target (neither armor nor shield). vs. shields. Now VS. SHIELDS. the +20% vs shields is calculated AFTER my proficiencies and damage mods. So lets put me about 100 damage. + 20%. 120 damage. 35% of 120? 42. Calculate headshot bonus, 7, 8, or 9 rounds.
Tell me again, that I need 9 seconds to kill someone at 90m... and make yourself look stupid... one more time. Straight I dare you. I double dare. Tell me that 9 seconds is necessary, one more god-damned time.
all your provided is that you got the last hit and that you are just bad at sniping, nothing else you dont even get the basics of math prot tip: value x * bonus * penalty = value x * penalty * bonus here is a nice article explaining to you that order in multiplications does not matter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplicationheadshot bonus is 50% btw and suits have armor too. my proto suit brick tanked has slightly over 1k ehp. assuming non charged shots, everything hits in the head and all my hp are shields, well sorry to bust your bubbles but your weapon would overheat before you could my brick tank. but ok, you are the pro, everyone else is wrong, your are right. I guess there is no cure for your tunnelvision. dude that's exactly how i described it. i just did it in literary terms. whatever. hey you tell me what it is, i tell you what happened. if you can't take my word or screenshot for it, then fine. gtfo. regards.. what is this? ignorance mode instead of tunnelvision now? math have just shown you are wrong and I am right, deal with it. PS: some math lessons would not hurt in your case too. lol, talk math all you want chump.
keep smacking those lips. i can take an imperial and down a *shield* hardened target in excess of 100m within 3-4 secs, if I land every hit, because i WILL admit landing a headshot when approaching 110m+ with a scrambler reflex sight is when i start having trouble tracking my target. Damage is negligible against armor, but still plenty enough to finish off Caldari suits.
You can't just analyze things in one way. Your numbers will say one thing, but will that translate the same way in a match? Nothing personal against you btw.
I like you, and DUST University overall. o7 |
ShinyJay
Destruction Reapers The Superpowers
100
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 17:35:00 -
[69] - Quote
Jathniel wrote:ShinyJay wrote:when i made that sniper suggestion, i myself am a dedicated sniper, i was thinking that sway wouldn't be removed when moving, but toned down a bit. even if it was a strafe gun, the 3-5 bullets would still be it's drawback anyways. I'm just tired of looking around for a perch that is away from combat with no vision. i have to be with my squad in order to snipe effectively and efficently, but they always get in the way of my scope and shots. the way i see it, people want snipers to play at assault ranges and only a few meters beyond it, without tweaking the sniper for such engagement. if the sniper isn't up close as an easy kill. they want it far away unable to shoot at anything important. i'm just a guy that's trying to put a resistance on behalf of snipers, and by extension, niche players in general. but if something is problematic, im willing to recognize that. (like forge guns, though i haven't used one since 1.4 so i can't say for certain if there has been any change to it.) the forge gun and it's guaranteed long-range OHK is part of the reason why snipers are in this mess right now actually...
i used the forge gun myself, it's easy and hard to snipe with considering the projectile is slow and the targets are always moving. it's the splash damage people hate about it and the assault forge, which i haven't used yet. I'm all for making thing fair for all roles and hate what is being done to snipers, but if CCP is gonna ignore us and push for assault's only, then sniper rifles need to change how they work |
CLONE117
Planetary Response Organization Test Friends Please Ignore
364
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 18:48:00 -
[70] - Quote
ok how is sniping random players scattered through out the map in the redzone a support role?..
and how is it helpfull if they dont help infantry..or how annoying is it when they are so far away into the redzone its next to impossible to counter snipe them?....
sniping was never helpfull..
the only helpful sniper was the counter sniper taking out enemy snipers..
but because of this the game will quickly turn into a sniper fest...
ccp seems to be trying to prevent the game from turning into an annoying sniper fest...
the sniper should only be able to use that precision to take out ppl in cover...
not dominate the entire field with the safety of not being spotted and shot at......
and seeing how some of those snipers that are reachable by infantry run away the second u start walking towards them while in a slow heavy suit yeah i see plenty reason for why ccp made the new maps the way they are...
|
|
ShinyJay
Destruction Reapers The Superpowers
100
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 19:13:00 -
[71] - Quote
CLONE117 wrote:ok how is sniping random players scattered through out the map in the redzone a support role?..
and how is it helpfull if they dont help infantry..or how annoying is it when they are so far away into the redzone its next to impossible to counter snipe them?....
sniping was never helpfull..
the only helpful sniper was the counter sniper taking out enemy snipers..
but because of this the game will quickly turn into a sniper fest...
ccp seems to be trying to prevent the game from turning into an annoying sniper fest...
the sniper should only be able to use that precision to take out ppl in cover...
not dominate the entire field with the safety of not being spotted and shot at......
and seeing how some of those snipers that are reachable by infantry run away the second u start walking towards them while in a slow heavy suit yeah i see plenty reason for why ccp made the new maps the way they are...
well snipers can't take out people in cover unless they try to flank them without getting noticed, and even then it's done better by an assault person. so what CCP did instead of a sniper fest is an assault rifle/CQC fest. anything can be annoying, and people take it out on snipers because they can't see them. a sniper's job is to not be spotted, pick out people of importance to kill, overwatch and support, and in some cases defend. i don't support red line sniping, but that wasn't intentional the way it is. people just saw and use it. to me, all i see now are mindless CQC people who hate thinking outside the box when it comes to something they can't deal with. that is what i see from most people online |
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
961
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 20:12:00 -
[72] - Quote
CLONE117 wrote:ok how is sniping random players scattered through out the map in the redzone a support role?..
and how is it helpfull if they dont help infantry..or how annoying is it when they are so far away into the redzone its next to impossible to counter snipe them?....
sniping was never helpfull..
the only helpful sniper was the counter sniper taking out enemy snipers..
but because of this the game will quickly turn into a sniper fest...
ccp seems to be trying to prevent the game from turning into an annoying sniper fest...
the sniper should only be able to use that precision to take out ppl in cover...
not dominate the entire field with the safety of not being spotted and shot at......
and seeing how some of those snipers that are reachable by infantry run away the second u start walking towards them while in a slow heavy suit yeah i see plenty reason for why ccp made the new maps the way they are...
I +1'd your post.
sniping random players scattered through out the map was never a useful support role.... except solo on ambush matches.... where you're actually supposed to do that. Think about those good moments:
The moment when an enemy hack is stopped even though you don't see a friendly near the objective. The moment when you run around a corner trying to get away from a hostile, but you notice the hostile suddenly didn't come around the corner to finish you off. The moment when you see a free hostile tank sitting around empty. (Granted that's a little more rare. lol) The moment when you win by clone out, even though you were sure your team was getting it's ass handed to it. Those are moments enjoyed when good snipers are on your team, watching your back like guardian angels.
It's even better when you have a good sniper in your SQUAD.
I feel bad for you, if you have never experienced what having good sniper support in your squad is like, and if CCP doesn't change this map design philosophy... I'm afraid you never will man. I mean, wow.... Not even a mainstream shooter like Battlefield 3 has put such a terrible arbitrary limitation on their snipers, and their sniper rifles are OP compared to Dust's IMO! |
lithkul devant
Legions of Infinite Dominion
64
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 22:03:00 -
[73] - Quote
I feel no pitty for snipers, in real life if a sniper is caught legally you are allowed to do anything you want to them. Snipers also take a lot more training to be effective in real life and in real life also require a spotter. Snipers also can not use the same location for more then 3 shots in real life without being found and being destroyed by a variety of means, because it only takes 3 bullets to pinpoint the location of a sniper. If you have 17mil and can not run more then 3 different outfits and a vehicle, you are flat out a loser. Each suit takes it's beating during one of the patches, including weapon types. In real life their is no redline, their is no protection for snipers, in fact the reason their are so few snipers in real life is cause of how complicated shots can be at long distances. If you do not understand this concept, go to a firing range, pick up a hand gun put a target at 50 feet and see how many headshots you get and how many you miss. If you want to do this with a rifle, put the target at roughly 350 yards and try to even hit the target you are aiming for. These are considered easy targets for snipers, snipers also have to hide out for days sometimes even weeks for a single shot. In short, the mechanics for a sniper in game are not punishing enough and they have never been punishing enough in any game as they do not account typically for fall off, breathing, sway of gun, wind, or any numerous other factors, even factors that should be easy enough to put into the game. |
|
CCP Frame
C C P C C P Alliance
1505
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 05:46:00 -
[74] - Quote
Thread locked due to ranting and lack of content, but instead mass-quoting other forum posts. Please provide your feedback in existing forum threads. Thank you. CCP Frame |
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 :: [one page] |