| Pages: [1] 2 3 :: one page |
|
|
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Reav Hannari
Red Rock Outriders
1276
   |
Posted - 2013.09.14 23:43:00 -
[1] - Quote
Pull up a bar stool recruit. I've been working up some numbers on the old NeoCom here about passive and active scanning and I'd like to pass them on to you so you can stop losing so many clones. Those things don't grow on trees you know. Probably because we have so few trees to check. Anyway, on with the lesson.
First, passive scanning is about picking up the electronic noise all the plasma generators, shield emitters, music players and fusion reactors your suits are giving off. You want your profile to be as small as possible and you want your passive detectors to pick up the quietest signal possible. Simply put, lower is better for both and it's a race to the bottom between you and the enemy.
Second, passive scanning is about the short range sensors on your suit. Those are normally 10 meters to just over 30 for a fully trained Gallente Scout with prototype sensors. Your eyes are still important for spotting the enemy and your weapon's sensors will also report an enemy at great range if pointed directly at them.
With the current generation of suits there are five main classes you need to think about: light frame, medium frame, heavy frame, scout and logistics. Scouts are special because they can reduce their own noise through training. Logistics have a better passive detection than the rest of the medium frames so they are naturally hidden from them.
So, what does this mean to you. The simplest case is you are busy hacking a terminal that is out in the open. If someone comes up to you and has a lower profile than you are sensitive to then they'll walk up and put a nova knife in your brain. Ouch. If you detect them when they get into range you'll have a chance to evade and shoot them in the face.
The goal is to optimize the number of cases where you shoot them in the face.
Instead of presenting a table with lots of fancy numbers and odd mixes of skill levels and modules I have some basic rules to refer to. I figure any halfway smart scout will train up profile dampening at the same time they are leveling up so my numbers have them at equal levels. I also don't talk about basic light suits much. Just more data to crunch.
Also, my numbers may have errors. I will not bite if you can prove they are wrong. I still have that spoon from our last discussion and may use that if catch me on a bad day though.
On to the important stuff. For passive scanning:
Rule zero: You are not invisible. If they use their eyes you will be spotted.
Rule number 1: If you are a scout you will not appear on passive sensors to every other suit class even if they have trained Precision Enhancement 5. Well, a logistics with enhancement 5 might spot an untrained light suit. I don't know if you are detected if the profile and the sensor matches exactly. In every other case they have to use enhancement modules to detect you unless they have an active scanner or are looking right at you. You are a ghost in a fight with other ghosts.
Rule number 2: If you are a logistics all other medium and heavier suits will not see you on passive scan unless they have Precision Enhancement 5. One skill level in Profile Dampening will counter that. Train it. Now. Done yet?
Rule number 3: A medium frame runs into a room without checking to either side. What does he see on his scanner if he doesn't turn around? Unless he has precision enhancement to 5 or there are heavies hiding there he won't see a thing. The entire squad of mediums, logistics and scouts will take turn spanking you. Seriously, your passive scanners are just about useless. Train to 5, which is a drag, or at least to 1 and sacrifice one slot for a basic precision enhancer to at least see other assaults and logistics.
Rule number 4: Heavies only see other suits if they are looking right at them. You can fix this with modules but that would be stupid. Just tape a scout to your helmet and let him look around for you. Scouts are small and weak so one roll of duct tape should work.
Now for active scanners:
Rule number 5: The standard grade scanners won't pick up any light suit but will find anybody else other than a medium frame with profile dampening skill 5. Even a basic dampener module will fix this except for heavies which need two of the basic or one complex, but that's dumb.
Rule number 6: The advanced grade scanners find light frames that don't have any skill in dampening. A scout can fit a basic dampener and disappear. Medium frames need either two basic dampeners or one complex to hide. This is a nice compromise for most operations.
Rule number 7: For a scout to hide from the 28 dB prototype scanners you need at least scout level 3, dampening level 3 and one enhanced dampener. A level 1 scout needs three basic dampeners to do that same thing. No scout, no matter what skills they have, can hide from the 28 dB scanner without a module. With high skill and at least two modules mediums and even a heavy could disappear but it would a very special fit. Can a heavy fit three complex dampeners? I don't know.
Rule number 8: To hide from the Duvolle Focused Active Scanner 15 dB you need to have scout 5, dampening 5 and two complex dampeners. Unless you are fighting a pack of rabid Ninja assassins then I wouldn't worry too much about carrying one. No other suit has any chance of hiding from this scanner. |
Awry Barux
Shining Flame
Amarr Empire
44
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 23:51:00 -
[2] - Quote
Good article. One tip: spinning around while using your active scanner, if done right (I'm not sure what exactly the condition is, you just have to get a feel for it) will let you scan 360 degrees instead of 60 or 30. |
Reav Hannari
Red Rock Outriders
1276
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 23:57:00 -
[3] - Quote
Awry Barux wrote:Good article. One tip: spinning around while using your active scanner, if done right (I'm not sure what exactly the condition is, you just have to get a feel for it) will let you scan 360 degrees instead of 60 or 30.
Ah, yes, the dance of the flashlight. This is an important technique. Thanks!
|
ALPHA DECRIPTER
M.E.R.C. Conventional Forces
442
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 08:27:00 -
[4] - Quote
Awry Barux wrote:Good article. One tip: spinning around while using your active scanner, if done right (I'm not sure what exactly the condition is, you just have to get a feel for it) will let you scan 360 degrees instead of 60 or 30.
Yes, a very important trick for "scouts". (I quoted it as the action of gaining Intel on your surrounding for your allies is considered scouting.)
Just wait for the animation to start before spinning. Spinning early might cause you to miss something (maybe 1 or 2 degrees)
`Sigh. Just another fun game of DUST . |
Reav Hannari
Red Rock Outriders
1282
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 15:04:00 -
[5] - Quote
I think I should talk about the messages you see when you are scanned. I've seen some confusion in other threads. I know YOU HAVE BEEN SCANNED means you were detected. I ran several contracts yesterday in a fit that should avoid advanced scanners but never saw the message about not being detected. You go looking for trouble and you can't find it. I'll try again today but if anybody can post the message I'd appreciate it.
If anybody has information about the accuracy message the person doing the scanning sees I'd appreciate that too. At level 3 scanning I only remember seeing the 'no error' message. |
Awry Barux
Shining Flame
Amarr Empire
45
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 17:05:00 -
[6] - Quote
Reav Hannari wrote:I think I should talk about the messages you see when you are scanned. I've seen some confusion in other threads. I know YOU HAVE BEEN SCANNED means you were detected. I ran several contracts yesterday in a fit that should avoid advanced scanners but never saw the message about not being detected. You go looking for trouble and you can't find it. I'll try again today but if anybody can post the message I'd appreciate it.
If anybody has information about the accuracy message the person doing the scanning sees I'd appreciate that too. At level 3 scanning I only remember seeing the 'no error' message.
If you "dodge" a scan, you get a big message like "YOU HAVE BEEN SCANNED" but it says "SCAN PREVENTED" instead, it's really very clear. If someone dodges your scan, instead of "NO MARGIN OF ERROR" you get "SOME MARGIN OF ERROR". |
Reav Hannari
Red Rock Outriders
1282
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 17:14:00 -
[7] - Quote
Awry Barux wrote:If you "dodge" a scan, you get a big message like "YOU HAVE BEEN SCANNED" but it says "SCAN PREVENTED" instead, it's really very clear. If someone dodges your scan, instead of "NO MARGIN OF ERROR" you get "SOME MARGIN OF ERROR".
Thank you. Exactly what I was looking for. |
Stefan Stahl
Seituoda Taskforce Command
Caldari State
270
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 19:09:00 -
[8] - Quote
Did you test using a basic profile dampener on a medium suit to avoid detection from standard scanners?
I know the numbers are supposed to add up. The scan profile should be 45 dB and the scan precision should be 46 dB, but when I tested this for a few days I never managed to avoid a scan.
Maybe everyone is using advanced scanners because they have too much CPU/PG.... |
Reav Hannari
Red Rock Outriders
1284
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 19:54:00 -
[9] - Quote
Stefan Stahl wrote:Did you test using a basic profile dampener on a medium suit to avoid detection from standard scanners?
I know the numbers are supposed to add up. The scan profile should be 45 dB and the scan precision should be 46 dB, but when I tested this for a few days I never managed to avoid a scan.
Maybe everyone is using advanced scanners because they have too much CPU/PG....
I have medium frame with level 1 dampening and basic being: 50 -> 49 -> 41.5 so it should work. I finally have a few hours to do some more testing so I'll add a suit for that.
|
S Park Finner
DUST University
Ivy League
276
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 20:04:00 -
[10] - Quote
I put together a summary of what we know about Active Scanners and posted it in General Discussions. I'd appreciate it if you would take a look at it and comment on it. After it has had a bit of time on the high-volume forum I'll cross post the results here.
I hope it's useful and many thanks for any help you can give. |
|
|
gbghg
L.O.T.I.S.
3471
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 20:04:00 -
[11] - Quote
gbghg's guide to scanning
step 1: point scanner
step 2: press button
step: enjoy christmas
but seriously reav, good guide +1. |
Reav Hannari
Red Rock Outriders
1287
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 22:58:00 -
[12] - Quote
A few hours of matches and nobody has scanned me. Either my fit is hiding and I'm not seeing a message or nobody has scanners out, which I find hard to believe. |
Iviin'yc Skirata
The Phoenix Federation
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 02:06:00 -
[13] - Quote
Thanks a lot Hannari. I am a Nova Knifer so this is very helpful. As well the only equipment i'll go into probably is Scanning so this is very helpful. |
Reav Hannari
Red Rock Outriders
1288
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 02:09:00 -
[14] - Quote
Iviin'yc Skirata wrote:Thanks a lot Hannari. I am a Nova Knifer so this is very helpful. As well the only equipment i'll go into probably is Scanning so this is very helpful.
Glad I could help. I hope to update it as more information becomes available. I'm actively testing and upgrading my skills and modules in this area right now. |
Iviin'yc Skirata
The Phoenix Federation
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 02:34:00 -
[15] - Quote
Minmatar scout suits give the racial bonus regarding nova knives but pg/cpu wise it is difficult to fit. A nova knifer doesn't make a lot of sp or isk so i've got to put my passive sp on. After awhile i'll be done with engineering abd electronics so it will be easier to fit mods. Until then i won't be hiding from scanners. I'll probably have to keep my advanced basic light suit in stoc so i can use its higher pg cpu for scanners. Right now i'm not using equipment or grenades, sometimes not even a sidearm. |
Awry Barux
Shining Flame
Amarr Empire
46
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 16:36:00 -
[16] - Quote
Stefan Stahl wrote:Did you test using a basic profile dampener on a medium suit to avoid detection from standard scanners?
I know the numbers are supposed to add up. The scan profile should be 45 dB and the scan precision should be 46 dB, but when I tested this for a few days I never managed to avoid a scan.
Maybe everyone is using advanced scanners because they have too much CPU/PG....
IIRC the fitting difference for scanners between STD and ADV is only +8 CPU. |
Reav Hannari
Red Rock Outriders
1340
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 01:06:00 -
[17] - Quote
Bojo and I managed to get some alone time together and tested scanning a bit. Hey, it was just testing. There was no funny business going on. Anyway, changes worth mentioning...
Confirmed that your passive profile is not affected by firing your weapon, sprinting or crouching. You can also be passively scanned through walls and terrain.
When you are not in a vehicle the first ring for your TACNET display is at 20 meters, the second at 65 m and the maximum range is 100 m. I haven't tested vehicles yet.
Visual range is 30 degrees off axis to about the first tick mark past the second ring or around 80 m. Detection fades out gradually but pointing your weapon will light up the enemy when beyond visual. Something most people already new but recording it here for the rookies.
We confirmed detection and ranges based on our fits and didn't find any discrepancies from what was calculated or presented before.
I still have some open questions on detection by depots and CRUs, what happens when profile and sensitivity is exactly the same, and anything related to vehicles. |
Llast 326
An Arkhos
100
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 01:25:00 -
[18] - Quote
Reav Hannari wrote:Bojo and I managed to get some alone time together and tested scanning a bit. Hey, it was just testing. There was no funny business going on. Anyway, changes worth mentioning...
All scanning no probing.... gotcha 
Good info, thank you and Bojo
|
Vrain Matari
ZionTCD
926
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 04:32:00 -
[19] - Quote
Nice work Reav, thanks for sharing.
And what you guys do on your own time is your own business...... |
Reav Hannari
Red Rock Outriders
1344
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 05:07:00 -
[20] - Quote
Remembered one test: active scanners do not make you appear on the enemy TACNET. I think this was intended at one point. |
|
|
Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
1075
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 12:07:00 -
[21] - Quote
I am getting confused without the basic numbers. Here they are from Chankk SaotomeGÇÖs guide.
Chankk Saotome wrote:
Scan Profile static base stats:
65 for Heavy frames
50 for Medium Frames
45 for Light Frames.
Scan Precision static base stats:
60 for Heavy frames
55 for Medium/Assault frames
50 for Logistics frames
45 for Light frames
Scan Radius static base stats:
Confirmed: 10.0m across the board for all suits
You should que sync with someone and both run no skill alts in Light Frame suits with no special mods to test the result of having equal sensor and profile numbers. Light Frame suits have both a Profile and Precision of 45.
Also, when you post a guide, particularly if it stretches the character limit for a post as this one does, you should always reserve an extra post or to for future expansion. All us guide writers tend to learn this the hard way the first time.
____________________________________________________________________________ Immortal Guides, supporting knowledge dissemination in New Eden since August 31, 2013. |
|
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
118051
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 13:25:00 -
[22] - Quote
Man... I need to get me an active scanner...
Game Designer // Team True Grit
http://twitter.com/regnerba |
|
Robert JD Niewiadomski
NULLIMPEX INC
539
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 13:39:00 -
[23] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:Man... I need to get me an active scanner... How's your dev blog goin? Sorry OP for an off-topic remark. I hope you don't mind this particular quote... |
Reav Hannari
Red Rock Outriders
1359
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 14:01:00 -
[24] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:Man... I need to get me an active scanner...
Yes. Yes, you do. Aim for the advanced though. I don't think the basic is worth it. |
ALPHA DECRIPTER
M.E.R.C. Conventional Forces
477
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 15:00:00 -
[25] - Quote
Reav Hannari wrote:CCP FoxFour wrote:Man... I need to get me an active scanner... Yes. Yes, you do. Aim for the advanced though. I don't think the basic is worth it.
Say that to the many, many, MANY people I killed while marking them with meh ol' flux scanner. Due to it's low angle you can find players that managed to "Duck" the scan by just scanning small areas at a time. Found a redline sniper, tac assault, and railtank doing this. I seen the tank and the assault from afar but got that "Some margin for error" so I used more precise scans. After I narrowed down his position I rushed past there redline and killed them both while my tank buddy took out there rail tank.
lol sniper AND a rail tank redline sniping with an assault bodyguard lol. Sad.
`Sigh. Just another fun game of DUST. |
Reav Hannari
Red Rock Outriders
1361
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 15:10:00 -
[26] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:I am getting confused without the basic numbers. Here they are from Chankk SaotomeGÇÖs guide.
The original post is at the limit for text. Once I'm confident in my own computations I may head over to the EVE wiki and setup the guide there along with a full chart of scan profiles. I have a pilot so that works for me but other guide publishers may not have the same option. The wiki would be nice since others can add and edit.
|
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Brutor Vanguard
Minmatar Republic
6063
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 19:59:00 -
[27] - Quote
Great thread, very useful info |
xAckie
Ahrendee Mercenaries
EoN.
359
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 22:17:00 -
[28] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:Man... I need to get me an active scanner...
One of the worse pieces if equipment introduced into dust. Breaks 2 skill trees. |
Awry Barux
Shining Flame
Amarr Empire
68
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 23:59:00 -
[29] - Quote
xAckie wrote:CCP FoxFour wrote:Man... I need to get me an active scanner... One of the worse pieces if equipment introduced into dust. Breaks 2 skill trees.
Please clarify, what skill trees does it break and how? If you mean passive range and passive precision enhancement, those are useless whether active scanners exist or not. |
Bojo The Mighty
Zanzibar Concept
1920
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 05:06:00 -
[30] - Quote
Awry Barux wrote:xAckie wrote:CCP FoxFour wrote:Man... I need to get me an active scanner... One of the worse pieces if equipment introduced into dust. Breaks 2 skill trees. Please clarify, what skill trees does it break and how? If you mean passive range and passive precision enhancement, those are useless whether active scanners exist or not.
NOT TRUE
we just proved that passive scanning works. |
|
|
|
|
| |
|
| Pages: [1] 2 3 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |