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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
KGB Sleep
Ikomari-Onu Enforcement
Caldari State
218
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Posted - 2013.09.11 04:55:00 -
[91] - Quote
Flux Raeder wrote:KGB Sleep wrote:Vin Mora wrote:Banning Hammer wrote:CCP Logibro wrote:We are not making decisions on aim assist yet. But we are discussing your feedback. Well, i really hope this time you decided to listen to commonsense. - Aim-assist stays, all NooB weapons have to go. - Aim-assist is remove, keep all the NooB weapons...maybe even add few more. Except NooB weapons don't get aim assist. Splash weapons and Sniper Rifles don't get Aim Assist, in case you didn't know. Snipers have the same aim assist. In fact they have had it all along. There is a "drag" when they pass over an enemy that was present before 1.4. That is why snipers don't say anything about AA. Splash weapons need AA? GTFO.  One more thing, WHAT THE F ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? You've obviously never sniped in this game before. Either stop making a fool of yourself or show me an exact quote where CCP said the sniper rifle has AA.
Ok HERE YOU GO now granted it isn't aim assist like what we have but it is an assist mechanic.
CCP Wolfman wrote:
Just to be clear, sniper rifles are not being given the new aim assists. The only assist they have is aim friction which reduces input slightly when close to a target. The MD, Flaylock and plasma cannon are also not being given assists.
Who's the fool now?
And to add a quick edit. I was on a bender that night and dgaf about much that was said. |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
2772
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Posted - 2013.09.11 05:00:00 -
[92] - Quote
First Prophet wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:
You can't out-Call of Duty Call of Duty.
So we should remove aim assist then? 
No, because Dust 514's extensive shield/armor HP makes it so that twich shooting is nigh impossible. It's not about reaction times, it's about staying on target. Strafe speeds used to be a hard counter for this because people couldn't aim for **** being as there wasn't any aim assist - so armor was extensively under powered because mobility was the key to winning a match.
Removal of Aim Assist wouldn't turn it into a tracking shooter or a twitch shooter, it would just make it hard as hell to aim and bring mobility back into the lime light - the entire premise of the Twitch Shooter's success.
What it -has- done is made players actually consider things before running out into the open and there's been a lot more cover usage.
In a faction warfare match earlier, we found ourselves grid locked between two objectives and firing across at each other for at least five minutes because there wasn't any cover between the two. Using the Active Scanner we saw that they extensively outnumbered us and at any time could have over-ran us if they wanted to, but because TacNet is now gone they couldn't measure our numbers (there were only four of us against the majority of their team) and I'd imagine the fact that they were losing by clones helped make that decision.
They could have ran across and suffered losses from our dug in position, but their choice to stay in place and utilize their own cover reduced the losses incurred despite outnumbering us. This kind of decision wouldn't have been made if there was conscious thought behind the fact that the average soldier on the field couldn't shoot - and all of the features and changes in 1.4 directly resulted in the outcome of that battle. It would have gone differently without them.
Was Aim Assist the deciding factor? No, of course not, but like with all things in gaming there were multiple aspects that led to the decision - so it was one part of the whole. But, remember that the game mechanic only enhances skill - it doesn't make it. A skilled player with or without aim assist is still a skilled player. Bitching about it just goes to prove that the only unfair fight is the one you lose. |
Shotty GoBang
Pro Hic Immortalis
1023
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Posted - 2013.09.12 03:43:00 -
[93] - Quote
Aeon,
What say you to substantially increased recoil and dispersion for automatic ARs?
Thanks,
Shotty
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Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
2779
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Posted - 2013.09.12 08:01:00 -
[94] - Quote
Shotty GoBang wrote:Aeon,
What say you to substantially increased recoil and dispersion for automatic ARs?
I understand doing so wouldn't fit your request to "leave things sit", but I'm interested in your opinion on how one might bring into balance Assault Rifles if aim-assist were to be held constant.
Thanks,
Shotty
I honestly feel that recoil and dispersion have nothing to do with why the AR is powerful and I'll use the Carthum Assault Scrambler Rifle as an example as to why.
Consider this. With base skills and no modules attached a Duvolle Assault Rifle does 37.4 damage at a rate of 12.5 rounds per second. A Carthum Assault Scrambler Rifle dishes out 39.6 damage at a rate of (approximtely) 11.76 rounds per second.
DPS per Weapon:
Duvolle AR: 467.5
Carthum ASR: 465.69
So, as we can see the damage is largely similar - in fact, so much to the point that I'm even willing to say that the Assault Scrambler Rifle should do -less- damage or the Duvolle Assault Rifle should do -more- damage to retain the fact that the Assault Rifle is intended to have the lowest range but highest damage output. That is, until we look at the ranges themselves and notice that there is a crippling problem.
http://i.imgur.com/4QNoPGN.png
As you can see, the CASR has the same exact optimal range - it has a larger fall off on the other hand. This doesn't really sit well though because both are very capable of killing up to their 'effective range', which is really just synonymous with falloff range, a term more familiar to Eve Online players.
In fact, what this shows us is that the CASR has no more "range" than the DAR, it just has a bit more leeway between optimal and falloff. So, if both do very similar amounts of damage but neither has more or less optimal range than there's no clear distinction between the two in terms of damage application. The only NOTABLE difference is the 40-50 meter range where the CASR seems to shine, but beyond when we get to 70-80 meters the damage is congruent.
If the DAR's optimal range was reduced to 30 meters, it could stand to retain it's damage application - but in order for the two to show some measure of diversity the CASR's damage application would have to be reduced in tandem so that they both show their significant differences in playstyle. At the moment, they seem too well balanced with one another and there's not enough a difference in feel. On the other hand you could improve the damage application of the DAR and the optimal range of the CASR but I severely doubt anyone wants to see a more powerful DAR.
Suffice to say there isn't enough difference in the ranges and damage application as there probably should be. The playstyles are too similar and I'm honestly surprised that the CASR hasn't appealed to more players as I previously had predicted it to the be the Flavor of the Month considering that shields were the way to go for so long.
But, to answer your question directly in regards to increasing the dispersion and recoil of the weapon? No, I don't think that it's the way to go because it's not going to hallmark on the weapon's strengths and weaknesses. It needs to have low range in exchange for high firepower and right now it's got the high firepower aspect down - it just needs it's range bumped down a bit to pave the way for other weapons. The Combat Rifle could be a good middle ground, with the Rail Rifle exceeding them all in terms of range, but having the lowest damage as a trade off.
I think people underestimate what difference 10 meters is.
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Cosgar
ParagonX
5169
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Posted - 2013.09.12 08:05:00 -
[95] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Cosgar wrote:It's funny, we get a good mechanic like strafing (by accident) and everyone raised hell for a hot fix. When we get a powerful aim-assist and hit boxes the size of barns, you want things to settle. Pathetic. Cover and thinking shooters are few in existence - twitch shooters already exist and you cannot compete them. You can't out-Call of Duty Call of Duty.
I don't think you understand what side of the argument I'm on... |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
2779
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Posted - 2013.09.12 08:09:00 -
[96] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Cosgar wrote:It's funny, we get a good mechanic like strafing (by accident) and everyone raised hell for a hot fix. When we get a powerful aim-assist and hit boxes the size of barns, you want things to settle. Pathetic. Cover and thinking shooters are few in existence - twitch shooters already exist and you cannot compete them. You can't out-Call of Duty Call of Duty. I don't think you understand what side of the argument I'm on...
Wasn't part of the argument, was a general statement explaining why lack of aim assist and strafing games aren't going to make anyone money. |
Banning Hammer
Tal-Romon Legion
Amarr Empire
1373
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 08:27:00 -
[97] - Quote
cess-pool wrote:castba wrote:But why do we need aim assist at all?
If you miss, then you should miss. Not have the game engine compensate for your ineptitude - aww here let me do that for you. Well done!
Mollycottled generation is just that. You would be slaughtered by mouse and keyboard
Mouse and Keyboard is going to slaughter you ? and me thinking that people played this game.
For the last time... A mouse and a Keyboard are Tools, that "everyone" in the game can use. You don't need lots of SP, or AUR, or lots of real cash, you don't need to be special, or a VIP, you don't need a different Console, or any extra equipment.
I just a ******* device that you can plug in your PS3, and use it. |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
2779
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Posted - 2013.09.12 08:29:00 -
[98] - Quote
Banning Hammer wrote:cess-pool wrote:castba wrote:But why do we need aim assist at all?
If you miss, then you should miss. Not have the game engine compensate for your ineptitude - aww here let me do that for you. Well done!
Mollycottled generation is just that. You would be slaughtered by mouse and keyboard Mouse and Keyboard is going to slaughter you ? and me thinking that people played this game. For the last time... A mouse and a Keyboard are Tools, that "everyone" in the game can use. You don't need lots of SP, or AUR, or lots of real cash, you don't need to be special, or a VIP, you don't need a different Console, or any extra equipment. I just a ******* device that you can plug in your PS3, and use it.
Exactly. Everyone I know that plays Dust 514 with Mouse and Keyboard says using it in 1.4 is absolutely terrible but then again, it's always been terrible. I tried it but honestly it still feels.... Bleh. |
Banning Hammer
Tal-Romon Legion
Amarr Empire
1373
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 08:42:00 -
[99] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Banning Hammer wrote:cess-pool wrote:castba wrote:But why do we need aim assist at all?
If you miss, then you should miss. Not have the game engine compensate for your ineptitude - aww here let me do that for you. Well done!
Mollycottled generation is just that. You would be slaughtered by mouse and keyboard Mouse and Keyboard is going to slaughter you ? and me thinking that people played this game. For the last time... A mouse and a Keyboard are Tools, that "everyone" in the game can use. You don't need lots of SP, or AUR, or lots of real cash, you don't need to be special, or a VIP, you don't need a different Console, or any extra equipment. I just a ******* device that you can plug in your PS3, and use it. Exactly. Everyone I know that plays Dust 514 with Mouse and Keyboard says using it in 1.4 is absolutely terrible but then again, it's always been terrible. I tried it but honestly it still feels.... Bleh.
People forgets exactly that, mouse support in Dust have NEVER been right. It's just that some people got use to it faster than others ( for whatever reasons, not discussing that ) the same way as some people are better with the DS3 than others. |
Cosgar
ParagonX
5171
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 09:07:00 -
[100] - Quote
Banning Hammer wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Banning Hammer wrote:cess-pool wrote:castba wrote:But why do we need aim assist at all?
If you miss, then you should miss. Not have the game engine compensate for your ineptitude - aww here let me do that for you. Well done!
Mollycottled generation is just that. You would be slaughtered by mouse and keyboard Mouse and Keyboard is going to slaughter you ? and me thinking that people played this game. For the last time... A mouse and a Keyboard are Tools, that "everyone" in the game can use. You don't need lots of SP, or AUR, or lots of real cash, you don't need to be special, or a VIP, you don't need a different Console, or any extra equipment. I just a ******* device that you can plug in your PS3, and use it. Exactly. Everyone I know that plays Dust 514 with Mouse and Keyboard says using it in 1.4 is absolutely terrible but then again, it's always been terrible. I tried it but honestly it still feels.... Bleh. People forgets exactly that, mouse support in Dust have NEVER been right. It's just that some people got used to it faster than others ( for whatever reasons, not discussing that ) the same way as some people are better with the DS3 than others.
If there's a secret, let me know. I'd like to get back to MKB at some point. |
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KEROSIINI-TERO
Seraphim Initiative..
726
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Posted - 2013.09.12 10:12:00 -
[101] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:
.
.
OP POST
.
.
You cannot seriously say that Dust's fix and balancing cycle is too short? 
Discussion is always okay, even tho some opinions are hasty or otherwise biased. Early discussion won't bring the next balance date any closer. |
Banning Hammer
Tal-Romon Legion
Amarr Empire
1373
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 10:25:00 -
[102] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Banning Hammer wrote:
People forgets exactly that, mouse support in Dust have NEVER been right. It's just that some people got used to it faster than others ( for whatever reasons, not discussing that ) the same way as some people are better with the DS3 than others.
If there's a secret, let me know. I'd like to get back to MKB at some point.
Not really a secret. Just don't try to use the mouse as a mouse, instead try to use it as a Device for the PS3. A bit like a very accurate analog stick. I don't think is possible for CCP to make the mouse feel like a "mouse", because the PS3 limitations with it. |
Shotty GoBang
Pro Hic Immortalis
1029
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 14:08:00 -
[103] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:DPS per Weapon: Duvolle AR: 467.5 Carthum ASR: 465.69 http://i.imgur.com/4QNoPGN.pngBut, to answer your question directly in regards to increasing the dispersion and recoil of the weapon? No, I don't think that it's the way to go because it's not going to hallmark on the weapon's strengths and weaknesses. It needs to have low range in exchange for high firepower and right now it's got the high firepower aspect down - it just needs it's range bumped down a bit to pave the way for other weapons.
For your further consideration (Aeon):
DPS is a solid metric, though it falls short of actualization. In assessing actualized performance, we must account for a weapon's comparative accuracy in addition other metrics like optimal range and DPS.
Hypothetical:
Long Range
If the DAR can land substantially more shots on a moving target than a TAR or Laser Rifle.
Then the DAR -- despite being outside of optimal range and at lower DPS, is a superior long-range weapon.
Medium-Long Range
Same concept as Long Rage, though compared against Scrambler Rifle.
The DAR remains the superior weapon.
Medium Range
At this range -- in my humble opinion -- Assault Rifles should dominate.
Short Range
Same concept as Long Rage, though compared against HMGS, SMGS and Shotguns.
The DAR remains the superior weapon.
Observations:
I do not claim to have the ability or statistics in-hand to measure actualized performance. I do, however, have the ability to make first-hand observations. As you know, I'm running about in a 400HP broken suit. I tend to die quickly and regularly; though in doing so I have observed enormous disparity between Automatic Assault Rifles and other weapons.
In close quarters, I've observed that the AR's TTK is superior to that of an HMG.
An HMG has higher theoretical DPS, though I stand good odds of breaking HMG target lock and reaching safety.
At large distance, I've observed an AR's TTK is superior to that of a Laser Rifle.
A Laser Rifle -- a severely restricted specialty weapon -- is theoretically better suited to kill me at long range than an AR. Though I have found the Laser Rifle is substantially easier to evade than automatic AR fire.
Conclusion:
These first-hand observations are troubling.
The AR is described as a "jack of all trades but master at none", yet we each observe contradictory performance in today's Dust. At present, the only counter to an automatic assault rifle is a better automatic assault rifle with more damage mods (or an AR user with more HP). I doubt that this is what the Devs intend, so something must eventually change.
Rather, I hope something is eventually changed. Be it added dispersion to balance long-range encounters, added recoil/spread to balance close-range encounters, or a dialing back of Aim Assist as applied to automatic assault rifles.
I understand that we are at odds on this issue, and I thank you for your civility and consideration of counter-point.
Sincerely,
Shotty |
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