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Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
2718
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Posted - 2013.09.08 21:56:00 -
[1] - Quote
Like, for real the fact that devs are already discussing changes to Aim Assist -FOUR DAYS- after it's implemented is abyssmal.
Honestly, why is it that we don't even have time to get used to certain things before we pull the plug on them? Tactical Assault Rifles had three weeks but vehicle HP limits (the entire reason the LAVs got out of hand in the first place) is still in after months and will maybe get fixed in 1.5
For real dude, it's insanely annoying when people complain on the forums about something being under-powered, it gets buffed and all of a sudden it's OP - to which we immediately pull the plug on it before anyone even has the opportunity to made legitimate comments instead of knee jerk QQ reactions.
You CANNOT accurately balance something unless you give it time to settle - you're just going to fluctuate between breaking things over and over again; bouncing back and forth between under powered and over powered until you maybe accidentally get it correctly three months later.
What does this solve, exactly, save for making a few terrible players happy?
Because it's not just Dust 514 that has this phenomenon.
Call of Duty: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lT2fuXnmNbQ
- Forum post: http://www.callofduty.com/thread/200733582#.UizwgsZwo7Y
Battlefield 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQxiECgBWAA
- Forum Post: http://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf3/forum/threadview/2832654490116884663/
Halo Reach (cross hair off): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYrZvRy8x0w
Get real, it's like this in every game - only the players of Dust 514 know that the Devs will listen if they yell at their mailbox loud enough.
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Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
2720
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Posted - 2013.09.08 22:24:00 -
[2] - Quote
Vman Q wrote:oh now look what camp is QQing..
"the tear jar the tear jar the tear jar"
fgts crying because they're crutch is being removed.. now go tell the vets to QQ some more about aim assist- oh wait never mind. they already did and CCP saw the err in their ways.
no one will play/is playing this niche game if CCP doesnt do something about the aim bot you noobs are so in love with
Lawl - you have no idea who I am and that makes me smile greatly. |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
2720
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Posted - 2013.09.08 22:30:00 -
[3] - Quote
Godin Thekiller wrote:They're not removing it, just nerfing it. God stop whining.
Going to save this quote for later use  |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
2728
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Posted - 2013.09.09 10:10:00 -
[4] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:castba wrote:But why do we need aim assist at all?
If you miss, then you should miss. Not have the game engine compensate for your ineptitude - aww here let me do that for you. Well done!
Mollycottled generation is just that. Pretty sure aim assistance existed in the earliest days of shooters like wolfenstein 3d and doom 1.
Truth. |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
2742
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Posted - 2013.09.10 01:00:00 -
[5] - Quote
This is the thing I don't understand.
Why say that it give skilled players an unfair advantage or it makes them more OP...? That doesn't make any sense - in fact, it has nothing to do with Aim Assist, if they were skilled before they're still going to be skilled.
Try turning it on for yourself and give it a shot, it's not like the option isn't there for you. According to that logic, the only thing it's going to do is make you a better player. |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
2749
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Posted - 2013.09.10 05:10:00 -
[6] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:I just hope they still leave a little for the Laser Rifle AT LONG RANGES.
It can be a pain to mantain the laser on someone AT ITS OPTIMAL DAMAGE RANGE for more than 2-4 seconds to get some damage in... : /
OVer than at Optimal range i dont care a lot for aim assist anyways either.... (specially with weapons taht can already spray)
but you remove the AA, you get mass drivers again.so i don t know...)
They really need to take another look at it's fall off range...
AR Optimal: 40m
Falloff - well up to 100m
Laser Rifle Optimal: Around 65-70 if memory serves
Laser Rifle Falloff: 90m
100m+ and the Laser Rifle just dies in damage dealing. Anything less than optimal is the same way. Seems a little ridiculous imo. |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
2751
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Posted - 2013.09.10 12:43:00 -
[7] - Quote
CommanderBolt wrote:Before 1.4 - Some had good aim, others had poor aim. As a scout escape was a tactical option.
After 1.4 with aim assist - Virtually everyone is now a keen ranged marksman and can track like no other up close. HP tank is now much preferable over speed.
Now if we could strike a balance in-between that would be great.
Aim assist isn't the disease, it's a symptom.
Scouts were broken long before Aim Assist ever came into the picture but it certainly drove a long nail into the coffin of speed tanking.
They needed to implement cloaking ages ago - needed to buff Scouts ages ago - they needed to do -SOMETHING- ages ago. Now, Scouts can't even be considered a factor when balancing other things, especially not Aim Assist. A long time ago I did the math on tracking and proved that it was absolutely impossible to out-strafe another player at any range, even with a scout. So, unless you're sprinting out of their tracking range to get a microsecond firing window, it's a pointless endeavor no matter what.
They only thing they have going for them anymore is stealth and with TacNet gone, Active Scanners are taking precedence - meaning that it's far more difficult to successfully be "stealthy" on the field. Despite this, Logistics and Assault suits are more capable to do so as they have extended slot layouts which allow them to fit more complex profile dampeners and still retain a measure of survivability without sacrificing anything.
To top it off the bonuses are nigh useless, reduced profile isn't that big of a difference (as explained before) and the Gallente scout's increased scan range only works for him now that TacNet is gone.
Suffice to say, the best thing for the Scout at this point would be to just outright remove it and reimburse the SP to players so that they can explore other options. It's going to take months to get it into a feasible position and at that point we'll have seen the Pilot drop suit which would be a more prominent role for the frame. |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
2756
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Posted - 2013.09.10 13:58:00 -
[8] - Quote
Korvin Lomont wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:CommanderBolt wrote:Before 1.4 - Some had good aim, others had poor aim. As a scout escape was a tactical option.
After 1.4 with aim assist - Virtually everyone is now a keen ranged marksman and can track like no other up close. HP tank is now much preferable over speed.
Now if we could strike a balance in-between that would be great. Aim assist isn't the disease, it's a symptom. Scouts were broken long before Aim Assist ever came into the picture but it certainly drove a long nail into the coffin of speed tanking. They needed to implement cloaking ages ago - needed to buff Scouts ages ago - they needed to do -SOMETHING- ages ago. Now, Scouts can't even be considered a factor when balancing other things, especially not Aim Assist. A long time ago I did the math on tracking and proved that it was absolutely impossible to out-strafe another player at any range, even with a scout. So, unless you're sprinting out of their tracking range to get a microsecond firing window, it's a pointless endeavor no matter what. They only thing they have going for them anymore is stealth and with TacNet gone, Active Scanners are taking precedence - meaning that it's far more difficult to successfully be "stealthy" on the field. Despite this, Logistics and Assault suits are more capable to do so as they have extended slot layouts which allow them to fit more complex profile dampeners and still retain a measure of survivability without sacrificing anything. To top it off the bonuses are nigh useless, reduced profile isn't that big of a difference (as explained before) and the Gallente scout's increased scan range only works for him now that TacNet is gone. Suffice to say, the best thing for the Scout at this point would be to just outright remove it and reimburse the SP to players so that they can explore other options. It's going to take months to get it into a feasible position and at that point we'll have seen the Pilot drop suit which would be a more prominent role for the frame. I couldn't agree more. I remember lots of request back in chromosome to give scouts a bit more CPU/PG so they can benefit from their 6 H/L slots. Well CCPs solution was to remove 1 slot H/L + 1 Equipmentslot. Now regarding the bonus, the 5% profiledampening isn't all that bad and the 5% damage boost to Nova knifes is nice but highly situational. The scanradius bonus of the gallente was a bad joke right from the beginning because every suit started with 10 m scanradius. Now with the removal of teamview CCP completely removed the role of the gallente scout as he can't get any use of his crappy bonus. Now there is no longer any benefit...from beeing a scout
Right, the bonus to nova knives is entirely situational. The role itself is based solely around that one weapon type - rather than a broad spectrum like the Minmatar Logistics' Sidearm Magazine Size bonus - which applies to every sidearm available.
Even worse is the fact that the Scout's melee damage bonus, at level five, equals out to the total melee damage a Heavy will dish out. So, without myrofibral stimulants (like anyone ever uses them, honestly) the Scout is only performing as well as the Heavy in terms of Melee.
If the Scout had a bonus to Projectile Sidearm damage, that'd make a hell of a lot more sense and gear him as a close range fighter rather than a 'danger close' range fighter. SMGs are vicious when skilled and a Minmatar Scout might just have enough damage dishing capability to be on par with other suits - effectively balancing out his low survivability as an extreme glass cannon.
Give it a 3% bonus to Sidearm damage and you see something like this (all skills level 5):
SMG Damage +15% = 33.46
SMG RoF 17.54
DPS: 586.88
AR Damage: 43.01
AR RoF: 12.5
DPS: 537.63
The SMGs potential hip-fire accuracy could make it a great addition to a Minmatar Scout's Armament and fits well within their designated role. They sacrifice some damage from Nova Knives, yes, but it diversifies them into a wider role - able to fit a SMG and Nova Knife combo and benefit from the two greatly.
This is just a concept though... Could go anywhere, really... |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
2766
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Posted - 2013.09.11 00:31:00 -
[9] - Quote
castba wrote:Jathniel wrote:I was complaining about how sniping doesn't work the same way anymore. Here's what CCP LogicLoop told me, and as much as it bugs me to admit, he/she was 100% correct: CCP LogicLoop wrote:We use sight lines, the rule set I discussed earlier, and general layouts to encourage effective game play from each role. Strategy and tactics entails using logic, and planning, coordination with others, effective dropsuit fittings, and weapons load-outs. What we are encouraging is "thinking". We were discussing sniping, but it's interesting to note that "each role" was said. You need to "think more" when you go into a fight now, and this definitely applies to VETERAN players. Basically, ALL of us, need to HTFU. The old ways of running matches are gone, and GOOD riddance. Snipers don't have total domination over certain maps anymore. + Assaults don't have the freedom to run around in the open and strafe shoot with reckless abandon anymore. Two things that were breaking the game for a lot of people have been fixed. And isn't a thinking shooter what everyone was after to begin with? I personally don't care about AA either way, all I care about is the end result being more emphasis on strategy and forcing the effective use of cover for survival.
Reviews actually describe the game as a "thinking man's shooter" so if the shoe fits... |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
2771
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Posted - 2013.09.11 04:08:00 -
[10] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:It's funny, we get a good mechanic like strafing (by accident) and everyone raised hell for a hot fix. When we get a powerful aim-assist and hit boxes the size of barns, you want things to settle. Pathetic.
Cover and thinking shooters are few in existence - twitch shooters already exist and you cannot compete them.
You can't out-Call of Duty Call of Duty. |
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Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
2772
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Posted - 2013.09.11 05:00:00 -
[11] - Quote
First Prophet wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:
You can't out-Call of Duty Call of Duty.
So we should remove aim assist then? 
No, because Dust 514's extensive shield/armor HP makes it so that twich shooting is nigh impossible. It's not about reaction times, it's about staying on target. Strafe speeds used to be a hard counter for this because people couldn't aim for **** being as there wasn't any aim assist - so armor was extensively under powered because mobility was the key to winning a match.
Removal of Aim Assist wouldn't turn it into a tracking shooter or a twitch shooter, it would just make it hard as hell to aim and bring mobility back into the lime light - the entire premise of the Twitch Shooter's success.
What it -has- done is made players actually consider things before running out into the open and there's been a lot more cover usage.
In a faction warfare match earlier, we found ourselves grid locked between two objectives and firing across at each other for at least five minutes because there wasn't any cover between the two. Using the Active Scanner we saw that they extensively outnumbered us and at any time could have over-ran us if they wanted to, but because TacNet is now gone they couldn't measure our numbers (there were only four of us against the majority of their team) and I'd imagine the fact that they were losing by clones helped make that decision.
They could have ran across and suffered losses from our dug in position, but their choice to stay in place and utilize their own cover reduced the losses incurred despite outnumbering us. This kind of decision wouldn't have been made if there was conscious thought behind the fact that the average soldier on the field couldn't shoot - and all of the features and changes in 1.4 directly resulted in the outcome of that battle. It would have gone differently without them.
Was Aim Assist the deciding factor? No, of course not, but like with all things in gaming there were multiple aspects that led to the decision - so it was one part of the whole. But, remember that the game mechanic only enhances skill - it doesn't make it. A skilled player with or without aim assist is still a skilled player. Bitching about it just goes to prove that the only unfair fight is the one you lose. |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
2779
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Posted - 2013.09.12 08:01:00 -
[12] - Quote
Shotty GoBang wrote:Aeon,
What say you to substantially increased recoil and dispersion for automatic ARs?
I understand doing so wouldn't fit your request to "leave things sit", but I'm interested in your opinion on how one might bring into balance Assault Rifles if aim-assist were to be held constant.
Thanks,
Shotty
I honestly feel that recoil and dispersion have nothing to do with why the AR is powerful and I'll use the Carthum Assault Scrambler Rifle as an example as to why.
Consider this. With base skills and no modules attached a Duvolle Assault Rifle does 37.4 damage at a rate of 12.5 rounds per second. A Carthum Assault Scrambler Rifle dishes out 39.6 damage at a rate of (approximtely) 11.76 rounds per second.
DPS per Weapon:
Duvolle AR: 467.5
Carthum ASR: 465.69
So, as we can see the damage is largely similar - in fact, so much to the point that I'm even willing to say that the Assault Scrambler Rifle should do -less- damage or the Duvolle Assault Rifle should do -more- damage to retain the fact that the Assault Rifle is intended to have the lowest range but highest damage output. That is, until we look at the ranges themselves and notice that there is a crippling problem.
http://i.imgur.com/4QNoPGN.png
As you can see, the CASR has the same exact optimal range - it has a larger fall off on the other hand. This doesn't really sit well though because both are very capable of killing up to their 'effective range', which is really just synonymous with falloff range, a term more familiar to Eve Online players.
In fact, what this shows us is that the CASR has no more "range" than the DAR, it just has a bit more leeway between optimal and falloff. So, if both do very similar amounts of damage but neither has more or less optimal range than there's no clear distinction between the two in terms of damage application. The only NOTABLE difference is the 40-50 meter range where the CASR seems to shine, but beyond when we get to 70-80 meters the damage is congruent.
If the DAR's optimal range was reduced to 30 meters, it could stand to retain it's damage application - but in order for the two to show some measure of diversity the CASR's damage application would have to be reduced in tandem so that they both show their significant differences in playstyle. At the moment, they seem too well balanced with one another and there's not enough a difference in feel. On the other hand you could improve the damage application of the DAR and the optimal range of the CASR but I severely doubt anyone wants to see a more powerful DAR.
Suffice to say there isn't enough difference in the ranges and damage application as there probably should be. The playstyles are too similar and I'm honestly surprised that the CASR hasn't appealed to more players as I previously had predicted it to the be the Flavor of the Month considering that shields were the way to go for so long.
But, to answer your question directly in regards to increasing the dispersion and recoil of the weapon? No, I don't think that it's the way to go because it's not going to hallmark on the weapon's strengths and weaknesses. It needs to have low range in exchange for high firepower and right now it's got the high firepower aspect down - it just needs it's range bumped down a bit to pave the way for other weapons. The Combat Rifle could be a good middle ground, with the Rail Rifle exceeding them all in terms of range, but having the lowest damage as a trade off.
I think people underestimate what difference 10 meters is.
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Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
2779
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Posted - 2013.09.12 08:09:00 -
[13] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Cosgar wrote:It's funny, we get a good mechanic like strafing (by accident) and everyone raised hell for a hot fix. When we get a powerful aim-assist and hit boxes the size of barns, you want things to settle. Pathetic. Cover and thinking shooters are few in existence - twitch shooters already exist and you cannot compete them. You can't out-Call of Duty Call of Duty. I don't think you understand what side of the argument I'm on...
Wasn't part of the argument, was a general statement explaining why lack of aim assist and strafing games aren't going to make anyone money. |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
2779
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Posted - 2013.09.12 08:29:00 -
[14] - Quote
Banning Hammer wrote:cess-pool wrote:castba wrote:But why do we need aim assist at all?
If you miss, then you should miss. Not have the game engine compensate for your ineptitude - aww here let me do that for you. Well done!
Mollycottled generation is just that. You would be slaughtered by mouse and keyboard Mouse and Keyboard is going to slaughter you ? and me thinking that people played this game.  For the last time... A mouse and a Keyboard are Tools, that "everyone" in the game can use. You don't need lots of SP, or AUR, or lots of real cash, you don't need to be special, or a VIP, you don't need a different Console, or any extra equipment. I just a ******* device that you can plug in your PS3, and use it.
Exactly. Everyone I know that plays Dust 514 with Mouse and Keyboard says using it in 1.4 is absolutely terrible but then again, it's always been terrible. I tried it but honestly it still feels.... Bleh. |
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