How would that motivate snipers to help? They would still just sit in the red line poking away at people. The only differece would be that they would get more wp for their squad mates hacking. I don't see the point.

Your problem, is that you dont see how snipers can benefit a squad, ever. This just means that you don't understand good battle tactics.

As it currently stands a sniper, who is doing anything other than suppressing a point for capture or defense purposes
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Wow, an argument between two people

I'm gonna take the side of Mobius. Snipers are assassins, removing targets as necessary. Here's your current fix:

Squad lead place rally order on someone important (guy with codebreaker mods). Sniper follows and protects target, gets bonus 20% WP for doing so. Problem solved.

I you are actually interested in making snipers participate in the game in a meaningful way you need to limit ho many sniper fits can be on a single team. As it stands we often end up in games where half our team is sniping. The number of sniper fits should be limited to two per team at a time.

Okay, so you do actually have some grasp of it.

So in that case, seems like you should be in favour of things to encourage them "suppressing a point for capture", etc.
that benefit squad objectives.


Your suggestion about win vs loss rewards, does not specifically encourage snipers to help out a squad. All it does, is encourage them to kill more people.

Your complaints about "sometimes I get too many snipers on my squad", is a problem with poor squad leadership, not game mechanics. In those cases, the leader simply says, "too many snipers in this squad. change your fit, or be booted from the squad."
It's no different from a squad leader who has a team full of heavies/dropship pilots/whocares.
It's up to the squad leader to tell his team, "This doesnt work. Some of you guys MUST change fit"

Currently, a squad leader has no "carrot" for a good sniper to want to follow. If he says "help us or I boot you from the squad", sniper says, "okay i dont care, my rewards dont change either way".
CCP needs to give snipers a motivation to participate as part of a squad.

yeah, there are top level snipers who go 20/0 blah blah, who it wont make any difference to. I'm not talking about those guys. I'm talking about the majority of new to middling snipers in the game, who would then make more WP working together as part of a squad, rather than lone wolfing it.

By following my suggestion of drastically limiting post match rewards for losing they will notice that when they are sniping in non-productive

It is my intent to [get rid of] the "my KDR was the highest so I won" mentality that we are all guilty of succumbing to, and this will only happen if winning is highly incentivized over loosing.

but that motivates the one or two snipers, at the expense of being able to give more dynamic squad orders. in my opinion, that's not a win.

btw, having the whole squad get rewarded for an objective capture, also benefits more than just snipers. It also benefits other people doing "support" type roles.
LAV ferrying, for example?

Man joins squad, AFKs, makes WP for nothing.

By following my suggestion of drastically limiting post match rewards for losing they will notice that when they are sniping in non-productive ways they loose more frequently which in turn leads to uselessly small payouts. Their SP development being hindered by their teams poor performance will push them to either try sniping in different ways which do help their team win (sometimes that is killing but typically not) or try a different role that allows them to have a more meaningful impact on a matches outcome.

It is my intent to kill the my KDR was the highest so I won mentality that we are all guilty of succumbing to, and this will only happen if winning is highly incentivized over loosing.

In defense of my "profession", I must add that dedicated snipers are not the biggest issue here. They usually do their jobs pretty well and help their teams. The problem is people switching to snipers when the battle seems lost and they want to minimize personal losses. This often has an avalanche effect. One guy switches to sniper, then another, and soon you have a team full of snipers.

Refer back to my "this is a squad leader issue" post.

Someone does that, the leader should kick them from the squad. problem solved.

There comes a point where winning is clearly impossible.

Why? If you have empty space and it's filled by an AFK'er, who is adding WP to the total pool by doing nothing?

Once again you are putting words into my mouth and making assumptions about me. I don't have an issue with too many snipers in my squad. When I run squads we rarely have a sniper. The exception is when I'm recruiting but once again I'm not squad lead in these cases so it really isn't a reflection on my leadership. What I said is that there are frequently too many snipers on a given team.

As I sated earlier, giving a bonus for hacking to the whole squad does nothing to encourage sniper participation. Snipers, especially the middling snipers, are typically disinterested in helping out their squad. They snipe because they feel like they can't compete in other roles, or because they see KDR as the be all and end all of FPS success.

By following my suggestion of drastically limiting post match rewards for losing they will notice that when they are sniping in non-productive ways they loose more frequently which in turn leads to uselessly small payouts. Their SP development being hindered by their teams poor performance will push them to either try sniping in different ways which do help their team win (sometimes that is killing but typically not) or try a different role that allows them to have a more meaningful impact on a matches outcome.

It is my intent to kill the my KDR was the highest so I won mentality that we are all guilty of succumbing to, and this will only happen if winning is highly incentivized over loosing.

Errr.. how exactly does someone "add WP" by "doing nothing"?
I've never noticed this is possible.

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I think he is referring to the squad hack bonus suggestion. If the whole squad gets say 5 WPs each then even if you are doing nothing you can gain WPs because your squad is hacking stuff..

Man joins squad, AFKs, makes WP for nothing. The problem is that it rewards lack of involvement because you are merely in squad. Someone could just goof off and make reward WP. So what if they make a little WP? We can't reward AFK at all, it's principle.

I do like the call-out idea, and if I have a Sniper Rifle, anything I look at in the scope ought to light up for my squadmates, so they can see that an enemy or several are around a corner.
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I personally wear three complex damage mods, an armor plate and armor repair due to profile dampening being nigh-useless

I think the scope light thing is a "nice idea", but it shouldnt come for free. Methinks it should be an optional, high-cost module.
ALso, it shouldnt be limited to sniper scope. All weapons have the 'light up enemy for you' feature. So, IMO, there should be a "share weapon scaning with squad" optional module.

As far as dampening being useless for snipers.... methinks it may see a resurgence.

Now with scanners getting used more... you may see vehicle scaners getting used more. (or hand scanners)

If you're good at visual stealth, you'll be doing pretty good.. UNTIL someone nails you with a scanner, and then it will be open seaon on your butt.

On the topic of sniper locations. We have a set of parameters we follow. Since in all reality with a DS a sniper can reach nearly any high position. We took steps to ensure that what sniper points do exist are able to be engaged by other players in some way.

To be more specific, over a certain height in meters snipers are completely blocked. In one range X meters up to X meters the sniper must be limited in their movement and must always be exposed to ground units. In the last parameter, that sits at the lowest of meters snipers are given more freedom to move, and able to move in and out of exposure freely.

Objective hack locations are to be protected from "long range" attacks and any snipers if at all possible.

This means they want to prevent overwatch snipers, and force snipers to shoot from >100m.

AR514 indeed.

The motivation for snipers would be guardian points for kills on an enemy within 30m of a squad member, maybe the ability to tag and score tag asists.

On a separate note I have started charging snipers to snipe when there are a lot of them on my team. If my team is loosing because there are too many snipers I will have my squad each choose a sniper to stand in front of. We then message said snipers that the fee for sniping is 1 million isk and we will move once the monies are received.

Not only is this satisfying since I get to punish them for making it impossible to do anything successful except snipe, but I also get millions of isk and fun hate mail. I'll post some examples to the hate mail collection thread later today. It is oh so much fun and I would encourage others to do the same.

Remember, extortion is an important part of New Eden and now it is an option for you.

You're welcome.

I dont think having a weapon-specific scanner is appropriate.
For one thing, someone can technically "snipe" with a scrambler rifle too.
It has a longer range than AR, which is after all, what you are going to be sniping against most of the time.

I think the current scanner thing is appropriate. Typical snipers show up on decent active scanners already. If snipers want to hide from that, they have to go scout + dampening. Which costs them in survivability. it's a good balance.

Now, how about those squad commands?

This radar penalty per. shot plus the ability to mark targets will add utility to snipers and the weapon radar penalty would add a bit more danger to the role. Overall this would seem to have a balancing effect since it increase both the risk and reward sides of the risk/reward formula. It could also reduce the number of snipers in a single match since going sniper would only be usefull with a full friendly team and shooting frequently reduces the likelyhood of the sniper surviving the match without loosing suits.

[quote=Mobius Kaethis]
- I run an advanced scout suit, with proficiency 3 and a module in dampening, and I'm still getting scanned.

Waste of time assuming for some reason you guys were good/dedicated enough to stop me from sniping, I would jut afk and get a drink till the match was over, I mean if 6 of my team is standing around like **** heads why should I bother, we defiantely won't win the match, and this is in a game where apparently most of the team isn't doing anything anyway.

seems like an afk match, not a throw my money away like an idiot match.

as for reasons to snipe? many suggestions have been made in the past

- counter sniping bonus: extra points for sniping a sniper.
- base defence bonus for sniping players on a hack point or around a hack point.
- active scanners on rifles to help the team, or a method to paint targets with our sniper rifle for team coordination.
- a mid range sniper rifle to allow us to travel with our squads and help in these new mid range maps.
- double tap bonuses - points for finishing off corpses with a sniper rifle
- equipment removal bonuses - points for destroying enemy equipment like spawn points.


I could keep going but I doubt any of it will be implemented

nah snipers should be able to paint targets, aside from being assasins snipers are intel gatherers, unfortunately with the changes to how the scanners work we have no way to relay the info to the team especially those not within our squad, being able to paint targets in the exact same fashion as the active scanners, would be very useful.

you know how many times I watch a blue dot either walking into an ambush or about to get ambushed, if I could paint the targets he'd be aware of the situation, I can try to eliminate the targets, but there's very few things that drop in one hit nowadays, and even at that those shots take time to line up and take.

just quickly marking targets would allow us to help our team more properly.

my only suggestion is to turn the melee button while zoomed into a painting system, and alert the user that a sniper has marked them rather then just tell them they were scanned.

I really would like the painting option as well and suggest that CCP make a new module for it called a "Target Painter", which will, when equipped, paint any target you aim at. The Painted target is broadcast for the whole team and is easy to see on the Tac Net display. This would work for not only the sniper but for everyone else using any other weapon. Want to paint people with your Nova Knives? No problem.