Pages: 1 2 [3] :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Rogatien Merc
Red Star. EoN.
652
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 23:13:00 -
[61] - Quote
Scheneighnay McBob wrote:What bugs me about protobears is that they still run proto despite it being a poor way to get ISK. In pub matches, it's a lose-lose situation when someone brings out proto: the proto user doesn't profit as much as they might with cheaper gear, while the other team doesn't have fun.
I can understand using it in merc battles or PC, but using it in instant battles is just obnoxious. It's a vicious cycle. Assumption is that there will be other proto bears on the other team so it is more fun for a guy to run proto because then he can perform better against all comers and yay kill things! ... no one cares about opposition's level of fun and should not be expected to.
The issue is that there is ALSO not a reason to care about ISK. If there was something worth spending ISK on (hmm... ISK for boosters???) then people would take note immediately. Otherwise if you have 100mil ISK and can just break even forever, why not use proto?
There is no incentive to make a profit. That is what needs to change. People who can run proto while making money are outliers, not the majority of proto bears, and their skill level is rewarded appropriately. Good for them. |
Operative 1171 Aajli
Bragian Order Amarr Empire
120
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 23:22:00 -
[62] - Quote
Nirwanda Vaughns wrote:Just wondering why there is such a big deal about players using proto in pub matches? Surely the idea of the game is to grind skills, get proto gear and use it?
is it jealously from newbies who cant use it? vets who cant afford to use it? i dunno. i have a ton of isk and the skills available. i've spent good money on boosters both passive and active and i've grinded week in week out since january to get into my proto gear and i'm sure others have so why is it the player base seem to have the need of shunning it to appear 'da leetestez' in any other FPS game you work up the ranks to unlock the better guns and use them, i don't go getting hate mail on BF3 cos i'm using my L85A2. Just seems pretty dumb to me
The problem is onesided premade squad matchmaking. You end up too many times with an organized leet squad on one team and solo players on the other so it gets lopsided. |
Dunk Mujunk
Vherokior Combat Logistics Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 00:03:00 -
[63] - Quote
I'm still pretty new, and i'm still getting a grasp on pretty much every single facet of Dust. I've gone back and forth on what the actual problem is/what to do about it in regards to the Proto issue pretty much since I first started/got my first true "welcome to Dust, give me your lunch money" @ss beating. At this point I have absolutely no idea what the solution is. Now, the general problem to some is the proliferation of Proto equipment (I've come to understand the factors that passive skills play, and i'm not getting into that side of this whole discussion), which creates a general problem on the new player retention front. Here is where i'm currently at thought wise, i'll give y'all an analogy (I love analogies)-
Imagine the NFL only played one game a year. The Chicago Bears (or any NFL team, doesn't matter) love to play football. They have worked long and hard to become about the best at what they do, and they want to play football whenever possible, and they want to use every trick they have, every play, and they want to play a full contact, no holds barred, full on game of NFL football, and they deserve/have the right to do so. But there is only one game a year so the Chicago Bears travel North America the rest of the year and beat the living dog sh!t out of PeeWee League football teams (for those who aren't aware, PeeWee= children around the ages of like 5 and 7 ish, at least here in Florida). There is no contest, no chance the Bears would lose, just a bunch of grown @ss men kicking a bunch of childrens teeth in.
Now apply this tale to Dust. Chicago Bears= Proto, children= noobs. Now I have no clue as to what goes on in PC or FW, but I know that's where I want to be, that's what i'm shooting for. I know I need some sweet @ss gear (along with proven ability) to start regularly taking part in these battles. I've gotten the general sense that there is not enough PC or FW going on to keep players at the higher levels occupied, and I've heard PC and FW battles are laggy as a ***** on a ***** boat, resulting in a large amount of high level players in Instant Battles. I don't know if that's fact or not, and i'm not suggesting any changes or recommending that someone needs to do something about it, but I would imagine that if I had Proto, if I made it that high up the never ending ladder of SP, I would leave Instant Battles in the Dust (hehehe). I know vets use Instant Battles to make some cash, and that's all fine and good. But it seems like there are a bunch of people who have no intent on partaking in PC or FW, and just wanna solo/exclusively play squad Instant Battle. Again, that's al fine and good (I personally don't understand that, but to each his own). I've seen suggestions for matchmaking, tiericide, and all kinds of other stuff. But I feel like the core of the issue is "why are there so many high powered players so consistently playing in the Instant Battles?" That's not a problem I have, just a general question. Is there really nothing else going on? Am I working so damn hard for all these fancy @ss weapons and suits to do the same bullsh!t i'm doing this very second, just with I higher KDR? I've gotten frustrated as all get out on numerous occasions, but A- I do have fun with the game, can't deny it, and B- I haven't hit 2 mil SP yet, but I feel myself getting better every match, so I know once I start getting better gear (and passive skills) things will get better. I'm not dogin' on anyone for how they get personal enjoyment out of a game, but as so many have said, if you wanna hold on to enough of these new players to keep the game alive, letting them get brutalized day in and day out for how ever many months it takes before your average Dust rookie is able to start turning the tables is probably not good for the game. I feel like this issue has a much farther reaching effect than has been acknowledged. The "squad up" argument isn't relevant when talking about Proto (or even just Vet) vs Rookie, cause it should be looked at as a one on one situation. I know that's not how it happens in the game, but to truly acknowledge the argument and try and make headway with it, you have to say "in a one on one scenario, if a 10mil SP dude runs into a 1mil SP dude, what happens? What tools are available to each, and in how many different possibilities are available to each player to win that engagement?" I for one am starting to feel like the gaps are probably far more responsible for things like perceived balance issues then they have been acknowledged to be. Anyway, i'm rambling, starting to drift off topic (sorry).
I'll just make my conclusion this- I don't know how to fix any issues in the game, and i'm still not even sure I understand what the issues are, but I feel that if you do something to make the Higher Ups want to play almost exclusively in a battle system that is largely unaccessible to newer players, if you do something that gives Higher Ups somewhere to play that is largely unaccessible to newer players, I would imagine the Proto/Pubstomp issues start to die down, and maybe claims of weapon and suit balance issues start to become somewhat of a thing of the past.
Sorry for the wall of text.
DISCLAIMER: I realize my newness, please don't mistake my 2 cents for anything more than what it is. |
gbghg
L.O.T.I.S.
3106
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 02:20:00 -
[64] - Quote
Dunk Mujunk wrote:I'm still pretty new, and i'm still getting a grasp on pretty much every single facet of Dust. I've gone back and forth on what the actual problem is/what to do about it in regards to the Proto issue pretty much since I first started/got my first true "welcome to Dust, give me your lunch money" @ss beating. At this point I have absolutely no idea what the solution is. Now, the general problem to some is the proliferation of Proto equipment (I've come to understand the factors that passive skills play, and i'm not getting into that side of this whole discussion), which creates a general problem on the new player retention front. Here is where i'm currently at thought wise, i'll give y'all an analogy (I love analogies)-
Imagine the NFL only played one game a year. The Chicago Bears (or any NFL team, doesn't matter) love to play football. They have worked long and hard to become about the best at what they do, and they want to play football whenever possible, and they want to use every trick they have, every play, and they want to play a full contact, no holds barred, full on game of NFL football, and they deserve/have the right to do so. But there is only one game a year so the Chicago Bears travel North America the rest of the year and beat the living dog sh!t out of PeeWee League football teams (for those who aren't aware, PeeWee= children around the ages of like 5 and 7 ish, at least here in Florida). There is no contest, no chance the Bears would lose, just a bunch of grown @ss men kicking a bunch of childrens teeth in.
Now apply this tale to Dust. Chicago Bears= Proto, children= noobs. Now I have no clue as to what goes on in PC or FW, but I know that's where I want to be, that's what i'm shooting for. I know I need some sweet @ss gear (along with proven ability) to start regularly taking part in these battles. I've gotten the general sense that there is not enough PC or FW going on to keep players at the higher levels occupied, and I've heard PC and FW battles are laggy as a ***** on a ***** boat, resulting in a large amount of high level players in Instant Battles. I don't know if that's fact or not, and i'm not suggesting any changes or recommending that someone needs to do something about it, but I would imagine that if I had Proto, if I made it that high up the never ending ladder of SP, I would leave Instant Battles in the Dust (hehehe). I know vets use Instant Battles to make some cash, and that's all fine and good. But it seems like there are a bunch of people who have no intent on partaking in PC or FW, and just wanna solo/exclusively play squad Instant Battle. Again, that's al fine and good (I personally don't understand that, but to each his own). I've seen suggestions for matchmaking, tiericide, and all kinds of other stuff. But I feel like the core of the issue is "why are there so many high powered players so consistently playing in the Instant Battles?" That's not a problem I have, just a general question. Is there really nothing else going on? Am I working so damn hard for all these fancy @ss weapons and suits to do the same bullsh!t i'm doing this very second, just with I higher KDR? I've gotten frustrated as all get out on numerous occasions, but A- I do have fun with the game, can't deny it, and B- I haven't hit 2 mil SP yet, but I feel myself getting better every match, so I know once I start getting better gear (and passive skills) things will get better. I'm not dogin' on anyone for how they get personal enjoyment out of a game, but as so many have said, if you wanna hold on to enough of these new players to keep the game alive, letting them get brutalized day in and day out for how ever many months it takes before your average Dust rookie is able to start turning the tables is probably not good for the game. I feel like this issue has a much farther reaching effect than has been acknowledged. The "squad up" argument isn't relevant when talking about Proto (or even just Vet) vs Rookie, cause it should be looked at as a one on one situation. I know that's not how it happens in the game, but to truly acknowledge the argument and try and make headway with it, you have to say "in a one on one scenario, if a 10mil SP dude runs into a 1mil SP dude, what happens? What tools are available to each, and in how many different possibilities are available to each player to win that engagement?" I for one am starting to feel like the gaps are probably far more responsible for things like perceived balance issues then they have been acknowledged to be. Anyway, i'm rambling, starting to drift off topic (sorry).
I'll just make my conclusion this- I don't know how to fix any issues in the game, and i'm still not even sure I understand what the issues are, but I feel that if you do something to make the Higher Ups want to play almost exclusively in a battle system that is largely unaccessible to newer players, if you do something that gives Higher Ups somewhere to play that is largely unaccessible to newer players, I would imagine the Proto/Pubstomp issues start to die down, and maybe claims of weapon and suit balance issues start to become somewhat of a thing of the past.
Sorry for the wall of text.
DISCLAIMER: I realize my newness, please don't mistake my 2 cents for anything more than what it is. Every opinion counts, ones from a newberry like yourself particularly in this matter. It's the reason why I've been linking every tiercide thread I've seen, regardless of whether it criticises the idea or agrees with it in the thread in the council chamber, this is not a minor issue being discussed, the more people who discuss it, the more angles we get on the idea, and should the devs decide to use it, the more useful the feedback will be. |
TEXA5 HiTM4N
Rogue Spades EoN.
167
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 02:27:00 -
[65] - Quote
we don't proto stomp because we want players to stay. now with CCP with all its wisdom has lowered the academy down to 400 wp it is like kicking the guy in the wheel chair in the teeth. |
Ren Ratner
Infinite Raiders
48
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 02:30:00 -
[66] - Quote
Aizen Intiki wrote:Nirwanda Vaughns wrote:Just wondering why there is such a big deal about players using proto in pub matches? Surely the idea of the game is to grind skills, get proto gear and use it?
is it jealously from newbies who cant use it? vets who cant afford to use it? i dunno. i have a ton of isk and the skills available. i've spent good money on boosters both passive and active and i've grinded week in week out since january to get into my proto gear and i'm sure others have so why is it the player base seem to have the need of shunning it to appear 'da leetestez' in any other FPS game you work up the ranks to unlock the better guns and use them, i don't go getting hate mail on BF3 cos i'm using my L85A2. Just seems pretty dumb to me In other games, there is no "better" gun unless it's OP. In Dust, you have guns that are clearly better. That's the problem. And no, the purpose of this game is to get lots of ISK, and own some space. in essence, get your own little empire.
Riiiight... that's where there are soooo many planets to own. |
Delta 749
Kestrel Reconnaissance
1691
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 03:10:00 -
[67] - Quote
Simple, it makes the idea of this being a truly competitive game a joke and it just bugs people to know that even though you outplayed someone they survived due to having a larger gear buff
EVE care bears like that style but it bothers everyone else |
noobsniper the 2nd
The Corporate Raiders
32
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 08:12:00 -
[68] - Quote
whats so bad about my proto forge gun? sure it kills ppl in one hit but if i hit you in the chest from the top of a tower 140m away you should die :p
|
Vyzion Eyri
The Southern Legion
1164
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 08:29:00 -
[69] - Quote
The big question, I find, is where we want DUST to be.
I've been referred to the Fanfest Keynote, I've seen countless views on what DUST should be, I've made up my own opinions on how certain aspects of DUST should perform like, and IWS even summed it up (perhaps a little too shortly) as:
Iron Wolf Saber wrote: The main goal of Dust 514 is to bring the New Eden Universe to veteran shooter and console players through the eyes of an immortal soldier.
Quoted from here.
Now, if we take all these sources and consider prototype gear from the perspective of wanting to make DUST reach this vision:
Prototype gear hinders progress towards getting DUST to where it should be.
Progression for progression's sake isn't what we want. We want progression in a way that is unique, fresh and reflects the true nature of the game.
People suggest matchmaking. Now, if we go back to the vision of the game as BRINGING NEW EDEN to an FPS, then matchmaking is a disgusting option. It will only be a step AWAY from the sandbox, single-shard universe that you can feel in EVE Online. We want that feeling replicated in DUST.
Hence, we have to find the root of the problem. Why do people want matchmaking? Prototype gear. So we have to get rid of it.
I mean, hell, many of the posts I skimmed through in this thread talked about TEAMWORK vs. GEAR.
If teamwork was so significant, then why does it matter whether or not we lose prototype gear? A good question, and it gets even better when you realise
WITH NO PROTOTYPE GEAR, TEAMWORK BECOMES THE ONLY WAY TO WIN.
Strategy. Tactics. Leaders will shine, unlike now, where PC consists of squad leaders telling their squad to a) defend or b) hack a point or c) kill the enemy.
I'm not saying the way forward (which I believe is tiercide) is absolutely clear. I'm not saying alternatives like tiercide don't have flaws. I believe though, that the current system is rotten at the core. |
trollface dot jpg
The Bacon Corporation
67
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 09:05:00 -
[70] - Quote
Nirwanda Vaughns wrote:Just wondering why there is such a big deal about players using proto in pub matches? Surely the idea of the game is to grind skills, get proto gear and use it?
is it jealously from newbies who cant use it? vets who cant afford to use it? i dunno. i have a ton of isk and the skills available. i've spent good money on boosters both passive and active and i've grinded week in week out since january to get into my proto gear and i'm sure others have so why is it the player base seem to have the need of shunning it to appear 'da leetestez' in any other FPS game you work up the ranks to unlock the better guns and use them, i don't go getting hate mail on BF3 cos i'm using my L85A2. Just seems pretty dumb to me
Allow me to quote myself from another thread where someone said something very similar:
trollface dot jpg wrote:I've been playing Dust for over a year now, and the core idea of Dust, and Eve in general, is all about risk and reward. You risk something valuable in hopes that your skill with it yields you a better reward. It's not supposed to be profitable for everyone to run the best gear at all times, you might as well make everything free and remove currency altogether.
This game has always been about the choice: Do I run cheap stuff and risk dying a lot? Or do I run my expensive stuff and risk loosing my hard earned money? That's what makes this game special when compared to the majority of shooters out there, risk and reward above and beyond the almighty K/D stat.
As it stands right now, there is no serious drawback to risking running proto gear since it's so easy to save up for it, and if you are good enough you can do so while using it. This is the problem people have, the game is flooded with it. high level gear in BF3 compared to starter gear doesn't have nearly the gap that it does in Dust. Thus this little thread I wrote on how to fix these issues people have with it.
Do this and I guarantee people will be BEGGING you to pull out your proto gear, and if you're good enough it won't have any serious effect on you apart from when you get occasionally OB'd. But that''s all part of the risk and reward system that made Dust so great to begin with, CCP just needs to work on our economy a bit.
Then you get to run what you want without any hate (when you can afford to), and games become more balanced over time. |
|
Takahiro Kashuken
Red Star. EoN.
830
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 09:19:00 -
[71] - Quote
My grief with proto is that as a vehicle user we dont have proto
We dont have proto/advanced hulls and mods
We are stuck at basic and i would like to proto pub stomp in a tank at some point yet we are at basic and stuck dealing with advanced/proto AV every game because its easy |
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 [3] :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |