DUST Search - So why all the grief for using proto?

Dunk Mujunk wrote:

I'm still pretty new, and i'm still getting a grasp on pretty much every single facet of Dust. I've gone back and forth on what the actual problem is/what to do about it in regards to the Proto issue pretty much since I first started/got my first true "welcome to Dust, give me your lunch money" @ss beating. At this point I have absolutely no idea what the solution is. Now, the general problem to some is the proliferation of Proto equipment (I've come to understand the factors that passive skills play, and i'm not getting into that side of this whole discussion), which creates a general problem on the new player retention front. Here is where i'm currently at thought wise, i'll give y'all an analogy (I love analogies)-

Imagine the NFL only played one game a year. The Chicago Bears (or any NFL team, doesn't matter) love to play football. They have worked long and hard to become about the best at what they do, and they want to play football whenever possible, and they want to use every trick they have, every play, and they want to play a full contact, no holds barred, full on game of NFL football, and they deserve/have the right to do so. But there is only one game a year so the Chicago Bears travel North America the rest of the year and beat the living dog sh!t out of PeeWee League football teams (for those who aren't aware, PeeWee= children around the ages of like 5 and 7 ish, at least here in Florida). There is no contest, no chance the Bears would lose, just a bunch of grown @ss men kicking a bunch of childrens teeth in.

Now apply this tale to Dust. Chicago Bears= Proto, children= noobs. Now I have no clue as to what goes on in PC or FW, but I know that's where I want to be, that's what i'm shooting for. I know I need some sweet @ss gear (along with proven ability) to start regularly taking part in these battles. I've gotten the general sense that there is not enough PC or FW going on to keep players at the higher levels occupied, and I've heard PC and FW battles are laggy as a ***** on a ***** boat, resulting in a large amount of high level players in Instant Battles. I don't know if that's fact or not, and i'm not suggesting any changes or recommending that someone needs to do something about it, but I would imagine that if I had Proto, if I made it that high up the never ending ladder of SP, I would leave Instant Battles in the Dust (hehehe). I know vets use Instant Battles to make some cash, and that's all fine and good. But it seems like there are a bunch of people who have no intent on partaking in PC or FW, and just wanna solo/exclusively play squad Instant Battle. Again, that's al fine and good (I personally don't understand that, but to each his own). I've seen suggestions for matchmaking, tiericide, and all kinds of other stuff. But I feel like the core of the issue is "why are there so many high powered players so consistently playing in the Instant Battles?" That's not a problem I have, just a general question. Is there really nothing else going on? Am I working so damn hard for all these fancy @ss weapons and suits to do the same bullsh!t i'm doing this very second, just with I higher KDR? I've gotten frustrated as all get out on numerous occasions, but A- I do have fun with the game, can't deny it, and B- I haven't hit 2 mil SP yet, but I feel myself getting better every match, so I know once I start getting better gear (and passive skills) things will get better. I'm not dogin' on anyone for how they get personal enjoyment out of a game, but as so many have said, if you wanna hold on to enough of these new players to keep the game alive, letting them get brutalized day in and day out for how ever many months it takes before your average Dust rookie is able to start turning the tables is probably not good for the game. I feel like this issue has a much farther reaching effect than has been acknowledged. The "squad up" argument isn't relevant when talking about Proto (or even just Vet) vs Rookie, cause it should be looked at as a one on one situation. I know that's not how it happens in the game, but to truly acknowledge the argument and try and make headway with it, you have to say "in a one on one scenario, if a 10mil SP dude runs into a 1mil SP dude, what happens? What tools are available to each, and in how many different possibilities are available to each player to win that engagement?" I for one am starting to feel like the gaps are probably far more responsible for things like perceived balance issues then they have been acknowledged to be. Anyway, i'm rambling, starting to drift off topic (sorry).

I'll just make my conclusion this- I don't know how to fix any issues in the game, and i'm still not even sure I understand what the issues are, but I feel that if you do something to make the Higher Ups want to play almost exclusively in a battle system that is largely unaccessible to newer players, if you do something that gives Higher Ups somewhere to play that is largely unaccessible to newer players, I would imagine the Proto/Pubstomp issues start to die down, and maybe claims of weapon and suit balance issues start to become somewhat of a thing of the past.

Sorry for the wall of text.

DISCLAIMER: I realize my newness, please don't mistake my 2 cents for anything more than what it is.


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gbghg L.O.T.I.S. 3092	Posted - 2013.08.12 20:40:00 - [1] - Quote Is there a problem with people running their best gear in instant matches? In of itself I would say no, sometimes it's fun to use your best **** for the sake of it. Is there a problem when said best gear gives you a huge EHP AND DPS advantage? Yes there is I'm not fool enough to expect an end to pub stomping, whatever happens in the game it's always going to be there, no point trying to eradicate it, it'll always happen. What needs to be worked on is the ridiculous state the gear system is in. Right now the sheer numbers (slot and stats wise) that proto provides give them a huge advantage, it's not one that's impossible to overcome but it is significant, the kind of significant that you don't want to see in a FPS. Beyond the ISK cost there is absolutely no downside to fielding proto gear, and as the game merges more with EVE and PC lasts longer in the FarmVille state that it is (which, I bet you, will always be happening to some degree, regardless of what CCP does) the ISK cost will become a smaller and smaller factor. If we look at the suit types we see the kind of variety that tiercide wants to encourage, heavies can tank more but as a consequence are slower, they become more suited to static defence or vehicle deployments, the scouts are faster than any other infantry, good for hanging around the outskirts of fights, chasing down snipers, back hacking etc, but they suffer in terms of DPS and EHP making them less effective in firefights, the logistics has more equipment slots, it's the suit best suited for the support roles, keeping allies in the fight, it's drawback is... Well I dunno, it needs work. The assault is the frontline infantry suit, it's a decent all rounder, it can't do any of the others roles as well as they can but it can make a decent job of them. Proto throws that out of balance, we see logi's and assaults that can tank more than heavies, we see these same suits get huge DPS's as well, the disadvantages that both heavy and light frame suits have to keep their advantages in Check keep them from being as useful as a medium frame suit, they become less relevant. Tiered gear in its current form is a blight upon this game, it's not a system that works well in FPS's, you "elitist" lot can complain however you want or spout all kind of BS about other FPS games out there and the casuals who play them, but there is one very simple fact, they are successful, dust is not. We need casual players to bulk up the player base, to provide CCP an income stream for this game, to give them incentive to keep working. There is no point in dust being different if its dead, bringing it closer in line with the other FPS's out there on the market, namely in putting players on a more level playing field EHP and DPS wise would do a lot to improve new player retention, what's more appealing? A game where proto is the only answer and you require months of being stomped to get there? Or a game where suit and fitting choices means that every player can have a niche role and the time where you can become useful and have an effect on the battlefield is significantly reduced? Tl;dr pub stomping will always happen can't stop it, but the current state of proto gear is killing dust and needs to change.
gbghg L.O.T.I.S. 3106	Posted - 2013.08.13 02:20:00 - [2] - Quote Dunk Mujunk wrote: I'm still pretty new, and i'm still getting a grasp on pretty much every single facet of Dust. I've gone back and forth on what the actual problem is/what to do about it in regards to the Proto issue pretty much since I first started/got my first true "welcome to Dust, give me your lunch money" @ss beating. At this point I have absolutely no idea what the solution is. Now, the general problem to some is the proliferation of Proto equipment (I've come to understand the factors that passive skills play, and i'm not getting into that side of this whole discussion), which creates a general problem on the new player retention front. Here is where i'm currently at thought wise, i'll give y'all an analogy (I love analogies)- Imagine the NFL only played one game a year. The Chicago Bears (or any NFL team, doesn't matter) love to play football. They have worked long and hard to become about the best at what they do, and they want to play football whenever possible, and they want to use every trick they have, every play, and they want to play a full contact, no holds barred, full on game of NFL football, and they deserve/have the right to do so. But there is only one game a year so the Chicago Bears travel North America the rest of the year and beat the living dog sh!t out of PeeWee League football teams (for those who aren't aware, PeeWee= children around the ages of like 5 and 7 ish, at least here in Florida). There is no contest, no chance the Bears would lose, just a bunch of grown @ss men kicking a bunch of childrens teeth in. Now apply this tale to Dust. Chicago Bears= Proto, children= noobs. Now I have no clue as to what goes on in PC or FW, but I know that's where I want to be, that's what i'm shooting for. I know I need some sweet @ss gear (along with proven ability) to start regularly taking part in these battles. I've gotten the general sense that there is not enough PC or FW going on to keep players at the higher levels occupied, and I've heard PC and FW battles are laggy as a *** on a *** boat, resulting in a large amount of high level players in Instant Battles. I don't know if that's fact or not, and i'm not suggesting any changes or recommending that someone needs to do something about it, but I would imagine that if I had Proto, if I made it that high up the never ending ladder of SP, I would leave Instant Battles in the Dust (hehehe). I know vets use Instant Battles to make some cash, and that's all fine and good. But it seems like there are a bunch of people who have no intent on partaking in PC or FW, and just wanna solo/exclusively play squad Instant Battle. Again, that's al fine and good (I personally don't understand that, but to each his own). I've seen suggestions for matchmaking, tiericide, and all kinds of other stuff. But I feel like the core of the issue is "why are there so many high powered players so consistently playing in the Instant Battles?" That's not a problem I have, just a general question. Is there really nothing else going on? Am I working so damn hard for all these fancy @ss weapons and suits to do the same bullsh!t i'm doing this very second, just with I higher KDR? I've gotten frustrated as all get out on numerous occasions, but A- I do have fun with the game, can't deny it, and B- I haven't hit 2 mil SP yet, but I feel myself getting better every match, so I know once I start getting better gear (and passive skills) things will get better. I'm not dogin' on anyone for how they get personal enjoyment out of a game, but as so many have said, if you wanna hold on to enough of these new players to keep the game alive, letting them get brutalized day in and day out for how ever many months it takes before your average Dust rookie is able to start turning the tables is probably not good for the game. I feel like this issue has a much farther reaching effect than has been acknowledged. The "squad up" argument isn't relevant when talking about Proto (or even just Vet) vs Rookie, cause it should be looked at as a one on one situation. I know that's not how it happens in the game, but to truly acknowledge the argument and try and make headway with it, you have to say "in a one on one scenario, if a 10mil SP dude runs into a 1mil SP dude, what happens? What tools are available to each, and in how many different possibilities are available to each player to win that engagement?" I for one am starting to feel like the gaps are probably far more responsible for things like perceived balance issues then they have been acknowledged to be. Anyway, i'm rambling, starting to drift off topic (sorry). I'll just make my conclusion this- I don't know how to fix any issues in the game, and i'm still not even sure I understand what the issues are, but I feel that if you do something to make the Higher Ups want to play almost exclusively in a battle system that is largely unaccessible to newer players, if you do something that gives Higher Ups somewhere to play that is largely unaccessible to newer players, I would imagine the Proto/Pubstomp issues start to die down, and maybe claims of weapon and suit balance issues start to become somewhat of a thing of the past. Sorry for the wall of text. DISCLAIMER: I realize my newness, please don't mistake my 2 cents for anything more than what it is. Every opinion counts, ones from a newberry like yourself particularly in this matter. It's the reason why I've been linking every tiercide thread I've seen, regardless of whether it criticises the idea or agrees with it in the thread in the council chamber, this is not a minor issue being discussed, the more people who discuss it, the more angles we get on the idea, and should the devs decide to use it, the more useful the feedback will be.