I'm two minutes into the video. Very painful to watch. Will update after finished with it.

Painful as in a really bad player? Because she sort of sucked. rofl

Yea I'm sure you were beast when you just started playing right?

I sort of was. I hope you're not white knighting it. rofl

Simply speaking, it's a FPS game, all FPS games follow general rules. She really didn't have any battle awareness, it doesn't take whatever WP points to learn, you just have it. I love the parts where she'll spawn and just stand there, yes when I play a shooter game, that's my first reaction when spawning in a fire fight.

Hi there Mercenaries,

So as many of you noticed, we made some adjustments to the Battle Academy (the new player battle queue) in Uprising 1.3 last week. Today, you'll notice in the patchnotes that we're adjusting it again. If you're reading this thread, it's probably because you're interested in knowing why, so let me try and explain Smile

The short version is that we're trying to figure out exactly what works, in terms of giving new players the best experience possible.

In 1.3, we did an experiment to see what effect giving new players the simplest possible game mode would have, by moving the Academy to a 16-player Ambush map. Our provisional conclusion is "new players don't really like super-simple game modes", so today we're switching the Academy queue over to 32-player Domination. This adds more players, and takes the experience closer to the "full-fat" Skirmish mode while still (hopefully!) keeping the game flow easily comprehensible.

We're also adjusting the War Point total you need to accumulate in order to graduate from the Academy, down to 400 War Points. This didn't seem like a very large number to most of us here, but our metrics suggest the median new player is scoring about 100 WP per battle, so this has them graduating from the Academy after probably 3-5 battles (with better players graduating sooner and less able ones staying longer, of course). Once graduated, players are free to join any of the normal game modes.

This is an ongoing experiment, so we're expecting to make further changes in the coming weeks, to try out new theories and home in on the best experience. Happily, we've got a reasonably comprehensive set of metrics tracking retention and so on, so we have a pretty good overview of the trends involved.

If you have any questions, please ask away and I'll try and answer as best I can.

Cheers,
-Greyscale

lol your first statement kinda made me ignore the rest of what you said. GG

Yea I'm sure you were beast when you just started playing right?

Painful as in a really bad player? Because she sort of sucked. rofl

This isn't really a problem with the academy. She's just a bad player.

As much as I agree that the academy should last longer and noobs should get more hand holding, this player shows a fundamental lack of FPS skills, shes running with the herd but not facing the same way or scanning around, she complains about hits not registering but shes firing a foot off the target with her ironsights... i stopped watching after 4 mins, while things in dust need more explaining to new players, its not the games responsibility to teach players the fundamentals of FPS games.

Oh and I've never walked into an FPS and been good from the start, it always took a lot of arse kickings for me to learn the games mechanics and find my feet, why do otheres expect this not to be their experience?

Last time i played battlefield i didn't get time in a noob server, you jumped onto a server that had a good ping and players.

Oh please. She played horribly and she should feel bad.

First of all, her aiming was completely horrible. She was emptying clips beside the red's ears. She should have pulled out of ADS several times and went to firing from the hip. Especially when she faced several reds that were up close and personal. How do you expect to track a red in ADS when its CQC?

Second problem, positioning. Often times you would see her focusing on a red, right in the open!! Obviously they were at a chokepoint, so she should have expected reds to be gunning for her from the left. She spent too many seconds trying to get a kill. This is why you don't chase kills.

Thirdly, why in the heck did she just stand there and cook a grenade in the chokepoint's funnel? Move to the side! Hide in cover while you cook! You know there's a plethora of reds (hence why you're cooking a grenade) so why just stand there like a target?

Also, she needs to distinguish between a character and an object. The player would see the red come up on the tacnet and immediately shoot at...a truck? You just seen them run around the truck. There's nothing in front of you but that. So you empty half the clip into the truck and now have to reload when the enemy comes out swinging?

This is the problem that I have with the numerous complaints and the video shows this. People are not changing their strategies to Dust and are blaming the game for whooping their butts for their stupidity.

If you're in a militia fit and you've been dying constantly and not getting kills, then ask yourself what are you doing wrong and what you need to improve on!

She didn't use cover. Her aim was horrible. She would often throw herself in harm's way. She couldn't differentiate the difference between a player model and a truck. She consistently ran down chokepoints that were obviously death zones. She would also fire on enemies that there was no way she could kill from that distance. But the gunfire alerted them to her presence and she died when they rushed her to return fire.

I can't sympathize with her because she needs to improve her strategy.

Oh please. She played horribly and she should feel bad.

First of all, her aiming was completely horrible. She was emptying clips beside the red's ears. She should have pulled out of ADS several times and went to firing from the hip. Especially when she faced several reds that were up close and personal. How do you expect to track a red in ADS when its CQC?

Second problem, positioning. Often times you would see her focusing on a red, right in the open!! Obviously they were at a chokepoint, so she should have expected reds to be gunning for her from the left. She spent too many seconds trying to get a kill. This is why you don't chase kills.

Thirdly, why in the heck did she just stand there and cook a grenade in the chokepoint's funnel? Move to the side! Hide in cover while you cook! You know there's a plethora of reds (hence why you're cooking a grenade) so why just stand there like a target?

Also, she needs to distinguish between a character and an object. The player would see the red come up on the tacnet and immediately shoot at...a truck? You just seen them run around the truck. There's nothing in front of you but that. So you empty half the clip into the truck and now have to reload when the enemy comes out swinging?

This is the problem that I have with the numerous complaints and the video shows this. People are not changing their strategies to Dust and are blaming the game for whooping their butts for their stupidity.

If you're in a militia fit and you've been dying constantly and not getting kills, then ask yourself what are you doing wrong and what you need to improve on!

She didn't use cover. Her aim was horrible. She would often throw herself in harm's way. She couldn't differentiate the difference between a player model and a truck. She consistently ran down chokepoints that were obviously death zones. She would also fire on enemies that there was no way she could kill from that distance. But the gunfire alerted them to her presence and she died when they rushed her to return fire.

I can't sympathize with her because she needs to improve her strategy.

True, but without proper matchmaking and tutorials, she'll never have a chance to get better. At least she's smart enough to stay away from tanks if she doesn't have AV.

The game gives her no chance to improve her strategy after she reaches 400 WP.

TL;DR

honestly, no need for a critical essay on the matter dude. A couple lines will suffice.

This video is among the saddest I've seen -- and I try to use player videos to understand what new players go through, so I've seen a lot of ugly stuff. It is almost too painful to watch.

Well, it's not like the academy is any help anyway. What the game clearly needs is an actual new player experience with tutorials and scenarios that demonstrate to new players how the game is played. They should be FORCED to play through these scenarios that teach them to create/join squads, how to place uplinks and nanohives, how to call in offmap support like vehicles and precision strikes, how to hack and use objectives and installations, and even a tutorial about playing with a squad and not running lone wolf rambo style into the meat grinder.

Shouldn't have started on 2X tear collection week.

Not to be mean, but it's funny that your corp funds pubstomping of all the people to speak.
Still I've killed plenty of TPs RSes and OHs with this 2.6 SP toon

The game gives her no chance to improve her strategy after she reaches 400 WP.

There are some pretty moronic elitist statements in this thread.

What you see in the video is an average player who is fairly new to FPS. Of course she could have done a little better, but the odds are stacked massively against her. Have you paid some attention to what her peashooter does to enemy shields? And have you paid attention to how quickly she dies on the spot? It's not just a matter of good movement, even if it helps.

And if she had done a few things better, do you think she had really enjoyed the game then?

If you see something in this game, you will stick around until you have enough knowledge to actually feel like you have a clue what you are doing and not feel like a total victim. But generally, nobody can be expected to play a game that is absolutely no fun at the bottom of the learning curve.

As a little thought experiment, imagine an entry requirement for all FPS would be years of FPS experience. What do you think would happen?

Okay but the majority of folks went through the same thing. In fact, I and others didn't even have an academy. What's your point? I went through, what could be considered, a "rite of passage" with this game. A School of Hard Knocks, if you will.

I had no fun with this game at the beginning. But what kept me going was that I, personally, wasn't satisfied with my game. I wanted to beat this game and not let this game beat me.

And thought experiment is not worth considering because it doesn't take years experience for a lil bit of common sense. You're getting hit...get into cover!! Your peashooter is not doing as much damage...follow your squad and pick off the weaker ones!!
People are demolishing me left and right...stick with it and one day that will be you!

It's like people get punched in the face and start crying instead of swinging back at the person who hit them. Where is the will?

lol 400 WPs to leave the academy... lol, so sad.

There are some pretty moronic elitist statements in this thread.

What you see in the video is an average player who is fairly new to FPS. Of course she could have done a little better, but the odds are stacked massively against her. Have you paid some attention to what her peashooter does to enemy shields? And have you paid attention to how quickly she dies on the spot? It's not just a matter of good movement, even if it helps.

And if she had done a few things better, do you think she had really enjoyed the game then?

If you see something in this game, you will stick around until you have enough knowledge to actually feel like you have a clue what you are doing and not feel like a total victim. But generally, nobody can be expected to play a game that is absolutely no fun at the bottom of the learning curve.

As a little thought experiment, imagine an entry requirement for all FPS would be years of FPS experience. What do you think would happen?

That is good, with that attitude you are part of the small hardcore. But you don't have to go through a rite like that to enjoy a game as a beginner, it's quite possible to make multiplayer games enjoyable for all skill levels, without taking anything away from the experience. Not doing so is simply bad game design.

My intent is not to beat on CCP with that statement, they are doing what they can so far. But discounting the experience of this player would be foolish.

As for "a little bit of common sense", while there is a chance that this would have marginally improved the KDR, it wouldn't have changed one bit about the fact that this player had no idea what was going on half the time.

No **** we failed

This isn't really a problem with the academy. She's just a bad player.

Well ya she needs to work on the her fundamentals, but how can she when she just started. I think its best if she joined a corp and got proper mentor ship. Join ours if you want a good mentor ship. Also try out the oceania server that is a good place to learn things. I go there to F off and learn how to fly a drop ship (never ask me to fly I suck), Find someone to pair with and MIC up. If I am on message me and I will help you.

yet IWS says it's cool cuz keeping them in academy longer means more players left. So pushing them out this early means they'll stay? lol... yea people love getting a beatdown as seen in this video. That looks fun.

Yes, we are.For a number of reasonswe're running tests on a weekly cadence right now, so we don't really have time to explore the entire possibility space variable-by-variable. Instead we're jumping between reasonably optimized implementations of various different plausible models of new player behavior, to try and establish as quickly as possible which model gets us in the right ballpark. We have a number of likely-looking mountains that we want to do a rough height-check on; once we've established some baselines for those, we'll be in a position to consider doing hill-climbing to find local maxima.

Well I had a meeting over the subject and overall all I can say about is that I am practically muzzled on the details on the whole ordeal to the point I don't think I am allowed to share my feelings over the meeting yet.

So I will point back to CCP Greyscale's post here https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1146870#post1146870

To which I quote:



The tests are highly optimized though so testing is still going to remain rapid fire and integrated on until its just right.

Well I had a meeting over the subject and overall all I can say about is that I am practically muzzled on the details on the whole ordeal to the point I don't think I am allowed to share my feelings over the meeting yet.

So I will point back to CCP Greyscale's post here https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1146870#post1146870

To which I quote:



The tests are highly optimized though so testing is still going to remain rapid fire and integrated on until its just right.

PR? Sorry I don't work with those guys.

lol no ****, you just get told what to say.

Sit IWS sit, good dog.

lol no ****, you just get told what to say.

Sit IWS sit, good dog.

I would break the NDA but then I remember the consequences of doing so.

Starting with illegitimizing every CPM from now on, including elected ones.

So no, you get the satisfaction of winning this round and how ineffective I would be at any retort I am not allowed to make.

pass me the popcorn.

Some people, like myself, are good at basically any shooter we pick up, pretty much instantly. There's things to learn but that just makes us even better.

And then there's some people, like her, who are not.

That's ok.

New Eden is doing exactly what it is supposed to do. Chewing up the people who can't handle it and letting them know exactly where they stand.

Frankly, if certain people were not getting overwhelmed and driven off I would be highly disappointed in this game.


The only thing it needs to do as far as im concerned is make itself worthy of the people who can handle it. There is always a market for hardcore competitive games with basically zero hand-holding. They just need to be good enough to justify their existence.

This video is among the saddest I've seen -- and I try to use player videos to understand what new players go through, so I've seen a lot of ugly stuff. It is almost too painful to watch.

just so sum it up in case a dev walks in here by chance.

Her first game

* 0-7 in Ambush on Manus Table Top

* Quoting her at the end of the video: " That was terrible, I was terrible, I feel terrible, I don't wanna play THIS anymore"

2nd game? i didn't bother.

I my brain was dying...... I admire her efforts to keep playing regardless of the fact she clearly has NO CLUE whats going on or what shes supposed to do. She didn't know how to get out of a drop ship...... She didn't even know it was called a dropship. People like this make me want to teach them how to play, but sadly..... I don't really care enough.

This isn't really a problem with the academy. She's just a bad player.

This is a combination of a terrible NPE in Dust as well as a gamer who is just being introduced to competitive multiplayer shooters.

This video is among the saddest I've seen -- and I try to use player videos to understand what new players go through, so I've seen a lot of ugly stuff. It is almost too painful to watch.

This isn't really a problem with the academy. She's just a bad player.

I don't think most Vets or CCP realize what a HUGE disadvantage new players have....No core skills to back into, poor equipment that is not match against anything, rubbish aiming mechanics that doesn't allow to use your skills and experience.

Dust 514 should have in the EULA ;

- Noobs not welcome, if you new to Dust 514 STFU and leave... we don't like people like you.

I sort of was. I hope you're not white knighting it. rofl

Simply speaking, it's a FPS game, all FPS games follow general rules. She really didn't have any battle awareness, it doesn't take whatever WP points to learn, you just have it. I love the parts where she'll spawn and just stand there, yes when I play a shooter game, that's my first reaction when spawning in a fire fight.

The full auto at long range was cute.

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Yeah... ok.. sometimes is funny, i'm guilty of teasing the occasional NooB too...but i feel horrible after, and i let them kill me few times as a "Sorry" type of thing. Still... we should try to be a bit more welcoming with new players, and you know that.

Academy folks that have not been in the game long, hell from the very start of the game, need clear progression points until your in the clear so to speak and have a decent amount of sp and battles under your belt.

Have some basic classes to look at visually and then have the game prompt you to skill towards (For instance a brawler type "Assault" visual image might suggest speccing into damage mods and core shield / armour skills where as an advanced medic type might suggest equipment and hit point extenders like shield extenders and armour plates.
Maybe a testing area for the weapon types and ranges, a firing range would be ideal.

Also academy should be just like the original game modes, yes you can tweak the clone count but dont make it too small.

Some basic voice overs and visual guides would do the trick to inform the new players about things like null cannon objectives, what supply depots and CRU`s do etc...

Wishes audio voice overs localizations were not so expensive ><

Wishes audio voice overs localizations were not so expensive ><

Last time I checked 'athena' was localized as well as the annoying war barge lady though.

lame, but if done properly wouldnt "athena" be able to be used for more than just that localized first time speaking


I.E when using google translate, you can have it read short sentences back to you in any language, or how some old computers used to have a text to speech function

edit- I see and you know IWS, it becomes difficult to have conversations or debates with you as a lot of the time you edit your previous post instead of posting a new one

I don't have complete thoughts and I am conscious on how many posts I make. If I had not been doing this I would have about.... 40,000+ posts.

New Eden is doing exactly what it is supposed to do. Chewing up the people who can't handle it and letting them know exactly where they stand.

Frankly, if certain people were not getting overwhelmed and driven off I would be highly disappointed in this game.


The only thing it needs to do as far as im concerned is make itself worthy of the people who can handle it. There is always a market for hardcore competitive games with basically zero hand-holding. They just need to be good enough to justify their existence.

I don't think most Vets or CCP realize what a HUGE disadvantage new players have....No core skills to back into, poor equipment that is not match against anything, rubbish aiming mechanics that doesn't allow to use your skills and experience.

Dust 514 should have in the EULA ;

- Noobs not welcome, if you new to Dust 514 STFU and leave... we don't like people like you.

I remember the first time I was getting ammo from a resupply depot. I was like oh yea I found the mother load I'm so going to get so many points. 3 games I went back to the same spot thinking I was getting points! ...lol...

Then I laughed so hard at myself once I actually figured out what a supply depot was actually doing. Ding ding ding

This video is among the saddest I've seen -- and I try to use player videos to understand what new players go through, so I've seen a lot of ugly stuff. It is almost too painful to watch.

One of these days I'm going to compile a comparison of fairly typical AR medium fits at different stages across an SP timeline... maybe with a graph. Everyone loves graphs.

Will likely illustrate a quite massive chasm between starters/intermediates and veterans. Significantly behind in total health, damage output, damage recovery and possibly speed. Oh, and grenades. Grenades also scale incredibly. They don't just get increased radius, they don't just get increased damage, no. They get both. In droves.

Pretty similar story with Extenders. The prototype is 200% better than the basic, 100% better than the enhanced. It's pretty whack. Go Complex or go home.

Basically the statistical disadvantage at the various stages in a mercenary's lifetime is what I'd like to examine. The video in this thread illustrates the issue of inexperience taken to an extreme. Both of these hurdles mixed together make for quite the venomous cocktail.

Matchmaking and improved academy are two things to think about as solutions, I would also advocate looking at all instances where a jump from basic to prototype increases performance exponentially. These warrant examining on a case-by-case basis to try and determine if there is a good reason for them to spike in performance like they do.

CCP needs to give new people more SP,

and they need to know this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYXffQMXXxM

^ Here we have a well done tutorial about a gunplay technique. Really, new players NEED to see this video, really interesting.

One of these days I'm going to compile a comparison of fairly typical AR medium fits at different stages across an SP timeline... maybe with a graph. Everyone loves graphs.

Will likely illustrate a quite massive chasm between starters/intermediates and veterans. Significantly behind in total health, damage output, damage recovery and possibly speed. Oh, and grenades. Grenades also scale incredibly. They don't just get increased radius, they don't just get increased damage, no. They get both. In droves.

Pretty similar story with Extenders. The prototype is 200% better than the basic, 100% better than the enhanced. It's pretty whack. Go Complex or go home.

Basically the statistical disadvantage at the various stages in a mercenary's lifetime is what I'd like to examine. The video in this thread illustrates the issue of inexperience taken to an extreme. Both of these hurdles mixed together make for quite the venomous cocktail.

Matchmaking and improved academy are two things to think about as solutions, I would also advocate looking at all instances where a jump from basic to prototype increases performance exponentially. These warrant examining on a case-by-case basis to try and determine if there is a good reason for them to spike in performance like they do.

It will lead to less deaths, and please if you are new this will really help

Wait so 400 war points was not a typo for 400k war points?

CCP what the fuk. How on earth did this ever seem like a good idea?

CCP you bad and should feel really bad.

Also someone please go give her some training.

This video is among the saddest I've seen -- and I try to use player videos to understand what new players go through, so I've seen a lot of ugly stuff. It is almost too painful to watch.

A rare high point for the Dust community (same girl who did the video in the original post).