Well, yea its unreasonable to give them a respec.

The gun will still be viable after the nerf, just not OP.

-Crowd: A witch! A witch! A witch! We found a witch! We've got a witch! A witch! A witch! We have found a witch. May we burn her?
- How do you know she is a witch
- She looks like one.
- Bring her forward.
- I'm not a witch! I'm not a witch!
- But you are dressed as one.
- They dressed me like this. - No, we didn't.
- And this isn't my nose. It's a false one.
- Well? - We did do the nose.
- The nose? - And the hat. But she is a witch !
- Did you dress her up like this? - No, no!
- Yes. A bit.
- She has got a wart.
- What makes you think she's a witch?
- She turned me into a newt!
- A newt?
- I got better.
- Burn her anyway!
- Quiet! Quiet!
- There are ways of telling whether she is a witch.
- Are there? What are they? Tell us. - Do they hurt?
- Tell me, what do you do with witches?
- Burn them!
- And what do you burn, apart from witches?
- More witches! - Wood!
- So why do witches burn?
- 'Cause they're made of wood? - Good!
- How do we tell if she is made of wood? - Build a bridge out of her.
- But can you not also make bridges out of stone?
- Oh, yeah.
- Does wood sink in water?
- No, it floats. - Throw her into the pond!
- What also floats in water?
- Bread. - Apples.
- Very small rocks. - Cider! Great gravy.
- Cherries. Mud. - Churches.
- Lead. - A duck!
- Exactly.
- So, logically--
- If she weighs the same as a duck...
- she's made of wood.
- And therefore?
- A witch!
- A duck! A duck! - Here's a duck.
- We shaIl use my largest scales.
- Burn the witch !
- Remove the supports!
- A witch!
- It's a fair cop.
- Who are you, who are so wise in the ways of science?
- I am Arthur, king of the Britons.

How do you know that?

Remember the laser? How has that worked out?

Well, yea its unreasonable to give them a respec.

The gun will still be viable after the nerf, just not OP.

DON'T LISTEN TO THE ABUSER!!

BURN THE ABUSERS!!!!

BURN THEM!!!!!!!

HOOC'S AN ABUSER, HE KILLED ME WITH A FLAYLOCK!!!!1!!11!!!eleven!!

Seriously though, they've made their bed, they should be forced to lie in it.

After all, it isn't like there is a Hard SP Cap where they will not be able to buy EVERYTHING eventually.

Look at these "mistakes" as "added value".

How do you know that?

Remember the laser? How has that worked out?

Councilman Iron wolf is saying they will quit....and that this is a good thing.

Also it was CCP who made this bed not the players.

Note: killing you with a flaylock would be a pretty neat trick as i have never used one.

Councilman Iron wolf is saying they will quit....and that this is a good thing.

Also it was CCP who made this bed not the players.

Note: killing you with a flaylock would be a pretty neat trick as i have never used one.

1 problem with your argument - You claim most people specced into them not knowing, but in fact it was mostly the opposite, especially with the flaylock. A lot of people specced into them b/c they knew they were OP.

Eon and LoI war...

These are the people that "knew". Hell half of em were part of the whole damn TAC min maxing from a few months ago.

Yet they voluntarily gave it up.

Obviously they did not know how bad it was until they saw how bad it was.

Also again you are still on your witchhunt.

Some people "knew" some did not....who the **** cares. Is this about balancing the game or about hunting down and punishing the wicked?

This is not about them.
CCP said, no more respecs bar something catastrophic, a bunch of whiners on a forum is not catastrophic.

A number of people specced those things without realising the advantages they had, but a significant amount of people, a considerable majority specced into them specifically after finding out how OP they are.

CCP did not say that exactly but lets say they did.

Judging from CCP's past history with DUST for them to say "only when something catastrophic" is like a another company saying "only when it rains"

They obviously did not know "how OP" it was...if they did then there would be no reason to voluntarily give them up.

I should also point out there are very few who are disagreeing with the nerfs....and this on friggin the dust forums where everyone complains about everything...and this is without them actually seeing how bad the nerfs will be from a CCP who has a terrible track record with these things.

Your attempt to make these players into villains is a logical failure.

Give it up.

Cool your head.

Stop the witchhunt.

Everyone agrees with balancing....fine lets balance the game. Punishing players arbitrarily is not about balancing the game.

What about the people who went cal logi/flaylock after the respec?

I know guys who used the flaylock as soon as it hit, same with the caldari logi.

Most of these people are either Minmatar and couldn't wait to get weapons for their suits that matched their chosen race, or Caldari players who played logi last build.

I have never seen my minmatar friend in a caldari suit of any kind, and the caldari guys never use flaylocks.

Edit:so cal logi/flaylock users knew what they were doing, they also knew they would get the suit and weapon nerfed by doing so.

It's not an attempt to make them into villains, there's a segment of those who specced into those things because that was their choice of race, there were those who wanted to spec cal logi because they like caldari tech, they benefitted from an unexpectedly OP set of gear. I can't hate those people, it's just how things turned out. However a significant part of the player base, saw how OP they were, and purposefully set out to spec those things to take advantage of the OP'ness, do you have any other reason for why 90% of the top corps were running those things in PC and pub matches?

Yes this is an attempt to make villains out of them. Why do you keep mentioning "they knew"? You want to dehumanize them so you won't feel bad about them being screwed over. Either this is about balancing the game or it isn't. Weather they knew or did not know should have no bearing on balance.

Jesus how many ways do i have to write this before it can seep into your thick skull.

Furthermore if you did not think this balancing was screwing them over then why do you need to desperately clutch to the claims that "they knew"? Why do you need that crutch to rationalize not giving them a respec?

Yes this is an attempt to make villains out of them. Why do you keep mentioning "they knew"? You want to dehumanize them so you won't feel bad about them being screwed over. Either this is about balancing the game or it isn't. Weather they knew or did not know should have no bearing on balance.

Jesus how many ways do i have to write this before it can seep into your thick skull.

Furthermore if you did not think this balancing was screwing them over then why do you need to desperately clutch to the claims that "they knew"? Why do you need that crutch to rationalize not giving them a respec?

Funny thing that....

I had Flaylock Operation to 5 before we had Flaylocks. When we actually got them and I could actually try them I thought it was a nice idea, though overall, a silly weapon.

When we got our respecs (you know, the LAST respec ever barring catastrophe), I spec'd OUT of Flaylocks for other more practical skills.

How many people used their respec to spec INTO Flaylocks knowing full well that it was a silly OP weapon?

"Them knowing" is off the table. Quit restating it like it is an argument. This is not rocket science. CCP is attempting to balance the game. They are not out to punish legitimate players who you do not like. Perhaps you want that but it is not a serious argument on how a game should be designed.

You guys keep bringing this argument up so i assume it is the reason why you oppose the repec. Now that your argument is off the table you should clearly see that a respec is justified. Games cannot be designed because you are pissed at some player who speced a certain way....If they did not **** you off then you should clearly see how they are being screwed. Otherwise why even bring up the argument.

You need to clear your head...quit being angry and out for revenge and start supporting a respec because people are being unjustly screwed over.

"Them knowing" is off the table. Quit restating it like it is an argument. This is not rocket science. CCP is attempting to balance the game. They are not out to punish legitimate players who you do not like. Perhaps you want that but it is not a serious argument on how a game should be designed.

You guys keep bringing this argument up so i assume it is the reason why you oppose the repec. Now that your argument is off the table you should clearly see that a respec is justified. Games cannot be designed because you are pissed at some player who speced a certain way....If they did not **** you off then you should clearly see how they are being screwed. Otherwise why even bring up the argument.

You need to clear your head...quit being angry and out for revenge and start supporting a respec because people are being unjustly screwed over.

Some pretty dreadful things have been said about players who speced into Cal logi flaylock and i am here to defend them.

I think the best defense of them is their actions. In recent PC battle specifically in the EoN/LoI war players have voluntarily given up their "OP" powers for a better game.

this is a very important point here.

These players speced into these items to use them...then after discovering they were OP and in their opinion game breaking voluntarily game them up for a more enjoyable game.

When they speced they had no idea they were game breaking and ruined matches...the fault with this lies completely in lap of CCP and its devs not the players who used the "broken" tools CCP imposed on them.

Is it really reasonable to call these players "abusers"?

Is it really unreasonable to give them a respec?

I think it is time for many of you to step back, cool your head, and quit demonizing people who simply made different choices then you.

There is no dehumanization. Either they trained what they wanted or trained what they knew was op. Both can end up at the same place, neither needs a respec. They made decisions in a system designed to preserve decisions through balance changes.

You just changed your argument....in a matter of a few min.

Before you wanted no respec to punish them now you want to "preserve decisions.

You moved the goal post.

You just lost the argument.

If we had the Amarr heavy flame thrower we could actually burn them to death for their sins... Alass it is missing :/

You just changed your argument....in a matter of a few min.

Before you wanted no respec to punish them now you want to "preserve decisions.

You moved the goal post.

You just lost the argument.

Hooc, you make good points but you aren't going to change everyone's mind. It's good that you are putting your thoughts out here though. Personally, I downgrade my gear when I fight unorganized teams, and I upgrade against strong resistance. Not enough people do this, and it's why so many matches are one sided stomps. I'm talking pub matches, since I have no PC experience.

The game is boring and frustrating regardless of which side of a stomp you are on.

you aren't going to change everyone's mind.

Probably not....but damn it i am here to win not change minds =)

One thing a guy above us mentioned is New Edan has always been Min/Max heavy....

I did not go into it but it really does make this villianizatrion of these players even more absurd.

Why are these Min/max villains so very different then other min/max players? Why are they so very special that they need to pushed from the game?

Weirdness.

-¬OP Trying to twell most of the dust players this is a waste. Alot of them spec Ar so when one Ar gets nerfed they can move on to the other. When a niche weapon gets nerfed its done and the person who spec into it is screwed. So dont waste your time this Ar514 anyway.

They aren't, they did it once and should they see the opportunity they will do it again. It isn't wrong, but that isn't a reason for game mechanics to be altered to help them. I min maxed training in eve, but did you know it has the opposite effect? Imagine having your ship choices and DPS output limited because you were spending the next year or 2 on perfecting your electronics and engineering trees. It's not a matter of handpicking elements like it is here. But still, that isn't a bad thing on either games part. They allocated their SP, we did the same. Why shouldn't we all live with those decisions?

Probably not....but damn it i am here to win not change minds =)

One thing a guy above us mentioned is New Edan has always been Min/Max heavy....

I did not go into it but it really does make this villianizatrion of these players even more absurd.

Why are these Min/max villains so very different then other min/max players? Why are they so very special that they need to pushed from the game?

Weirdness.

Wait, so AR users can move on, but others can't?

Because those decisions were based on facts at a given time and a given version of the game that can and will change with each update. CCP has proven there is no permanence to those facts and will change them arbitrarily. And yes i mean arbitrary. Just look at the over kill on the laser nerf.

You want players to keep with their decisions when CCP will change the very laws of the universe of the game with each update.

You are trying to preserve a phantom that never existed, will never exist and cannot exist.

There are ways to establish permanence in an MMO world....trying to do it with "no respecs ever ever ever" when the world is always changing is doing it azz backwards and guaranteed to fail.

Flaylocks cost 620k SP to spec into. That isn't that much. Caldari Logies are 2.4+million SP big difference. Stop putting us in the same boat.

Correct that's why alot dust players don't understand tac got nerfed they went to gek. Niche players laser for example got screwed and needed a respec. Now its a logi and niche up to bat and they cant move on.People who spec into them for fun got screwed by fotm players and The Ar Cry board.

Oh, I'm sorry, you thought I was saying that New Eden attracted min/maxers?

No, I meant that New Eden brings out the worst in some people, after all, the Devs made a music video telling people to Harden The **** Up. In addition to that, I remember seeing a video (a year or so ago) where there was a Dev in an interview teaching newbs how to scam in Jita and ENCOURAGING it. TBH, I don't really have a problem with this, it is what helped cement my fondness for Dust and EVE.

Min/maxers though are among the worst type of gamers I have had to endure gaming with in the 26 years I've been playing PNP RPGs. They do little more than twist rules to suit their own desires (further exacerbated by the fact that they are usually Rules Lawyers too). They take a game that is supposed to be about fun and turn it into a "I can twist rules and exploit loopholes better than you".

I have watched many a good tabletop game go down the drain because of min/maxing, I don't want to see this happen here.

CCP is simply practicing what they preach by not kowtowing to the "GIMME RESPEC NAO!!!!" crowd. I support this, I abide by the belief that my decisions need to be preserved and I am not crying for a respec.

HTFU & SIUB or GTFO.

FYI by constantly changing the game CCP is cowtowing to min/maxing. not he other way around.

You honestly think the "they knew" min/max crowd don't also know about the multiple accounts on PSN loophole?

"No respec ever ever ever" will always harm the "don't know" crowd more then the min/maxers.

Note: it is amusing that I thought you were one who saw the hypocrisy but it just turns out you are a hypocrite.

Yet eve is doing it even now and has done it for a decade. It clearly isn't something that can't be done when it is being done.

It's also important to recall that the stats on the suits and weapons were only a part of the story here. SP permanence doesn't equate to item stat permanence. The changes you mention are and should have been a part of a persons decisions with SP allocation. We weren't promised a respec with balance changes and as such we had choices to make, including chasing the best or sticking with something that we like or just diversifying. The dynamic nature of things right now is another fact to take into account, not a factor which invalidates decision making.

Yet eve is doing it even now and has done it for a decade. It clearly isn't something that can't be done when it is being done..

Adding respecs will benefit the min/max crowd more than others, so how is no respecs cowtowing to them? changing the game isn't either as the combination of changes and no respecs means they have to work the hardest to stay on top while the rest of us just train what we feel like. Multi PSN account users aren't an instant ticket to0 high SP characters either. Those characters are burned with each update and aren't coming to proficiency as fast as balance changes come out.

Adding respecs will benefit the min/max crowd more than others,

Player PvP in Eve is a minimal affair. That game for all intents and purposes is a co-op PvE exploration gathering game with safe zones. Farmville in space.

"No repec ever ever" is not an issue when mining asteroids and shooting at AI.

That is not true. So long as there are imbalances the well informed Min/Max crowed will always be better off with arbitrary changes that are hidden and hard to adjust to....that is the nature of being a Min/maxer.

CCP did not say that exactly but lets say they did.

Judging from CCP's past history with DUST for them to say "only when something catastrophic" is like a another company saying "only when it rains"