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Alaika Arbosa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. Interstellar Murder of Crows
746
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 21:59:00 -
[31] - Quote
TBH, I gave up on this idea awhile ago.
I really have no real desire to discuss it further, between your statement of "Massive changes are not just done for the heck of it" and Cosgar pointing out it wouldn't be very feasible without a full and complete reset, I see no point in beating an imaginary horse.
IDK, personally I like the idea because it makes sense to me (practice makes perfect), though only if it had been what we started with (or at least what we had at the beginning of Open Beta).
Just because I like the idea doesn't mean I don't agree with the two aforementioned statements.
/shrug |
Oso Peresoso
RisingSuns
358
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 22:01:00 -
[32] - Quote
gbghg wrote:Oso Peresoso wrote:Cosgar wrote:SourceAnybody else disturbed by that fact that if this comes to fruition, no-lifers and boosters will get to run rampant? I'm disturbed that you can read some bullshit handwaving about replacing the SP system entirely and come away thinking its a serious idea. Actually it's a semi-serious idea, that a small amount of thought and time was spent on. I just wrote that and stuck it on the forums, so it wasn't lost forever in the IRC chat logs, it's a much more logical way of structuring the SP system, what you use you get better with, rather than the using a use an AR to learn how to use an LAV method we have now. I acknowledge that to do something like this would require significant time and effort, and this idea has several kinks to be worked out, but you shouldn't dismiss an idea because you deem it "bullshit handwaving". If you're going to criticise ate least have the decency to state why you disagree with it.
Doesn't change the fact that you're putting the cart before the horse by being outraged/concerned over something completely hypothetical and very far fetched. Which is why I call it "bullshit handwaving," not only because it would be a hard change to do, but because we're talking about CCP here, and New Eden. The way SP accumulates is like game-universe bedrock. Seriously. This idea is UNTHINKABLE, like even more outlandish than the "trade SP for respec" ideas, or "let us pay AUR for name change." I'm not being critical for suggesting the idea, I'm just saying its a little strange to get all worried that its going to happen when there's zero indication that it could ever happen, much less that it will happen. |
Alaika Arbosa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. Interstellar Murder of Crows
746
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 22:01:00 -
[33] - Quote
gbghg wrote:First Prophet wrote:gbghg wrote:Lulz, people still hung up on the irc part? Why wouldn't they be? I've been in there. it's horrible. It's fine as long as you don't argue with beers, that's a mistake. Can't forget to not show independent thought and only kowtow to the self-proclaimed "elite" overlords that IMHO CCP seems to encourage. |
Cosgar
ParagonX
3194
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 22:09:00 -
[34] - Quote
Promethius Franklin wrote:Lastly I'd like to know what your idea of a skill tree is. How does ours not act the part?
Source After some extended play in Uprising, there seemed to be a little something missing from Dust 514. I couldn't quite put my finger on it, but something was missing compared to Chromosome. After some discussion in game, observing some battles, and paying attention to the forums, I think I figured out a problem that needs to be addressed.
The current dropsuit/skill system promotes Power Creep In Chromosome, the Standard, Advanced and Prototype dropsuit system worked for several reasons:
- ISK was a balancing factor that prevented prototype spam. Prototype was so expensive, that it was limited to CBs. In pub games, using strictly prototype could seriously hurt the user's income and added more value to STD/ADV fittings.
- Prototype weapons were kept in check because prototype suits were too expensive for everyday use. If a player wanted to use a prototype weapon, they had to either use a prototype suit or give up something on a lower meta level suit to fit it.
- VK.1, T-II, and B-Series sub variants within the suit tiers offered incomperables that balanced dropsuits to be better in different situations, not just all around better. Shield/Armor imbalance in Chromosome didn't fully allow this to come to fruition, but having more choices in a player's fitting selection rather than more raw power was a healthy encouragement.
With all these examples, power creep was at a minimum. Even though there was a sufficient gap between STD/ADV/PRO weapons, the economy prevented everyone from running around in the best gear in the game at all times. This allowed newer players to at least have somewhat of a fighting chance despite the SP gap, veteran players with more SP could specialize in different roles without sacrificing their overall effectiveness and players that did narrow themselves into one specific role were properly rewarded as they should. But when prices were lowered, beta players received a refund for all of their assets, and the changes to the skill tree became more dropsuit, weapon and vehicle specific, this delicate balance was thrown off and created a situation of power creep:
- Prototype dropsuits are too commonplace, therefore making prototype equipment more commonplace as well. Pub matches have degraded into a situation where whoever has the most veteran players winning.
- Because of the abundance of prototype, all players are forced to specialize in one specific role just to compete. This limits how many different roles/fittings a person can use.
- Players that specialized in more than one role are even less effective because the gap between one prototype fitting vs 2~3 STD/ADV fittings available is too wide.
- It's harder for newer players to be able to have a fighting chance. With everyone running prototype, a player has the option of either AFKing for the SP they need to compete, enduring the unnecessarily extensive struggle to be competitive, or quit. Many of which choose the latter.
- Many veteran players are burned out. If you're stuck in one role, it's going to get old. This is why we see so many topics, requesting respecs. Nobody wants to be completely locked into one role like we are now. The common mentality seems to be that you have to grind into prototype X in role Y because it's the only way to compete, it shouldn't be this way. STD/ADV gear is severly devalued because prototype is readily available, more rewarding, and a minimal risk of losing it.....
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gbghg
L.O.T.I.S. RISE of LEGION
2822
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 22:16:00 -
[35] - Quote
Alaika Arbosa wrote:gbghg wrote:First Prophet wrote:gbghg wrote:Lulz, people still hung up on the irc part? Why wouldn't they be? I've been in there. it's horrible. It's fine as long as you don't argue with beers, that's a mistake. Can't forget to not show independent thought and only kowtow to the self-proclaimed "elite" overlords that IMHO CCP seems to encourage. Beers is simply impossible to argue with, he'll simply grind you down with logic. And the crappy thing is that he's often right about stuff. |
Promethius Franklin
DUST University Ivy League
127
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 22:20:00 -
[36] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Promethius Franklin wrote:Lastly I'd like to know what your idea of a skill tree is. How does ours not act the part? SourceAfter some extended play in Uprising, there seemed to be a little something missing from Dust 514. I couldn't quite put my finger on it, but something was missing compared to Chromosome. After some discussion in game, observing some battles, and paying attention to the forums, I think I figured out a problem that needs to be addressed. The current dropsuit/skill system promotes Power CreepIn Chromosome, the Standard, Advanced and Prototype dropsuit system worked for several reasons:
- ISK was a balancing factor that prevented prototype spam. Prototype was so expensive, that it was limited to CBs. In pub games, using strictly prototype could seriously hurt the user's income and added more value to STD/ADV fittings.
- Prototype weapons were kept in check because prototype suits were too expensive for everyday use. If a player wanted to use a prototype weapon, they had to either use a prototype suit or give up something on a lower meta level suit to fit it.
- VK.1, T-II, and B-Series sub variants within the suit tiers offered incomperables that balanced dropsuits to be better in different situations, not just all around better. Shield/Armor imbalance in Chromosome didn't fully allow this to come to fruition, but having more choices in a player's fitting selection rather than more raw power was a healthy encouragement.
With all these examples, power creep was at a minimum. Even though there was a sufficient gap between STD/ADV/PRO weapons, the economy prevented everyone from running around in the best gear in the game at all times. This allowed newer players to at least have somewhat of a fighting chance despite the SP gap, veteran players with more SP could specialize in different roles without sacrificing their overall effectiveness and players that did narrow themselves into one specific role were properly rewarded as they should. But when prices were lowered, beta players received a refund for all of their assets, and the changes to the skill tree became more dropsuit, weapon and vehicle specific, this delicate balance was thrown off and created a situation of power creep:
- Prototype dropsuits are too commonplace, therefore making prototype equipment more commonplace as well. Pub matches have degraded into a situation where whoever has the most veteran players winning.
- Because of the abundance of prototype, all players are forced to specialize in one specific role just to compete. This limits how many different roles/fittings a person can use.
- Players that specialized in more than one role are even less effective because the gap between one prototype fitting vs 2~3 STD/ADV fittings available is too wide.
- It's harder for newer players to be able to have a fighting chance. With everyone running prototype, a player has the option of either AFKing for the SP they need to compete, enduring the unnecessarily extensive struggle to be competitive, or quit. Many of which choose the latter.
- Many veteran players are burned out. If you're stuck in one role, it's going to get old. This is why we see so many topics, requesting respecs. Nobody wants to be completely locked into one role like we are now. The common mentality seems to be that you have to grind into prototype X in role Y because it's the only way to compete, it shouldn't be this way. STD/ADV gear is severly devalued because prototype is readily available, more rewarding, and a minimal risk of losing it.....
This doesn't show failing to the skill system itself, rather that the cost of operating at the top end of it isn't high enough to be prohibitive and/or other isk related factors are involved allowing proto to be run more often than it should be.
Actually, per this the skill system is fine so long as operating at the top of it is costly enough. The one real reference here is the idea of things becoming more specific with the skills. Ironically, it actually became more of a tree, and closer to the idea of the statement quoted in the op as well. So the question still remains, what, aside from slowing down the act of being the best in a wider variety of skill based aspects, really changed? And what makes this a failing of a tree, and more importantly, what is a good tree? |
Malkai Inos
Opus Arcana Covert Intervention
862
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 22:22:00 -
[37] - Quote
Alaika Arbosa wrote:TBH, I gave up on this idea awhile ago.
I really have no real desire to discuss it further, between your statement of "Massive changes are not just done for the heck of it" and Cosgar pointing out it wouldn't be very feasible without a full and complete reset, I see no point in beating an imaginary horse.
IDK, personally I like the idea because it makes sense to me (practice makes perfect), though only if it had been what we started with (or at least what we had at the beginning of Open Beta).
Just because I like the idea doesn't mean I don't agree with the two aforementioned statements.
/shrug I understand and agree that this discussion might have had a different tone one or two years earlier.
I'd just like to say that did in fact enjoy this exchange. I hope my harsh statements are not miscontrued as ill will towards you.
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Cosgar
ParagonX
3196
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 22:29:00 -
[38] - Quote
Promethius Franklin wrote:This doesn't show failing to the skill system itself, rather that the cost of operating at the top end of it isn't high enough to be prohibitive and/or other isk related factors are involved allowing proto to be run more often than it should be.
Actually, per this the skill system is fine so long as operating at the top of it is costly enough. The one real reference here is the idea of things becoming more specific with the skills. Ironically, it actually became more of a tree, and closer to the idea of the statement quoted in the op as well. So the question still remains, what, aside from slowing down the act of being the best in a wider variety of skill based aspects, really changed? And what makes this a failing of a tree, and more importantly, what is a good tree? A good tree should have a wide selection of skills that reward generalists and specialists alike. If you invest in X, Y and Z, you may never be as effective as the guy who fully invests in W but you'll be more flexible. The way the tree is now, you're pretty much locked into your role. Think about it, how many people have you been in a squad with that were able to switch to 2-3 different roles on the fly? If you look at the vehicle skill tree, that's a real skill tree because pilots aren't strictly limited to one role, but can spread themselves out because their vehicle tiers are a series of incomparables- crappy incomparables at the moment, but you get the point.
Edit: The author of this topic has the right idea on how a skill tree should look. (Direct all +1's to J-Lewis) |
Promethius Franklin
DUST University Ivy League
127
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 22:48:00 -
[39] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Promethius Franklin wrote:This doesn't show failing to the skill system itself, rather that the cost of operating at the top end of it isn't high enough to be prohibitive and/or other isk related factors are involved allowing proto to be run more often than it should be.
Actually, per this the skill system is fine so long as operating at the top of it is costly enough. The one real reference here is the idea of things becoming more specific with the skills. Ironically, it actually became more of a tree, and closer to the idea of the statement quoted in the op as well. So the question still remains, what, aside from slowing down the act of being the best in a wider variety of skill based aspects, really changed? And what makes this a failing of a tree, and more importantly, what is a good tree? A good tree should have a wide selection of skills that reward generalists and specialists alike. If you invest in X, Y and Z, you may never be as effective as the guy who fully invests in W but you'll be more flexible. The way the tree is now, you're pretty much locked into your role. Think about it, how many people have you been in a squad with that were able to switch to 2-3 different roles on the fly? If you look at the vehicle skill tree, that's a real skill tree because pilots aren't strictly limited to one role, but can spread themselves out because their vehicle tiers are a series of incomparables- crappy incomparables at the moment, but you get the point. Edit: The author of this topic has the right idea on how a skill tree should look. (Direct all +1's to J-Lewis) I'll have to read that because I'm not seeing what you mean there. From what I see the Vehicle trees and the dropsuit trees have a close to identical breakout and function, save the fact that the turret tree lacks the specialist modifications that the weapons tree has.
Edit: After a read of the op i have 2 things to say, 1) Never play Eve. Ever. In life. Don't. 2)I agree on the point of to much functionality having sever over-granularity and too much gated functionality in the weapons tree. |
Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
3470
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 22:56:00 -
[40] - Quote
Irc is not considered an official source of information even if devs post there. |
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Kane Fyea
DUST University Ivy League
1448
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 22:56:00 -
[41] - Quote
gbghg wrote:First Prophet wrote:gbghg wrote:Lulz, people still hung up on the irc part? Why wouldn't they be? I've been in there. it's horrible. It's fine as long as you don't argue with beers, that's a mistake. I know what I'm going to do today.
Also I do not agree with this skill tree change. If CCP we're to completely change how the skill tree works it would make A LOT of people leave and would have to be accompanied by a full reset which would make even more people leave. Sorry but doing this now would hurt more then it would help. The time for this should have been in closed beta. |
Bungholio Cornholio
Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State
21
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 23:00:00 -
[42] - Quote
Chunky Munkey wrote:What's IRC?
The internet circa 1985.
CCP is SO cutting edge. |
Bungholio Cornholio
Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State
21
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 23:03:00 -
[43] - Quote
gbghg wrote:It's fine as long as you don't argue with beers, that's a mistake.
I never argue with Beer.
Unless its a IPA.
GAH! Those are horrible! |
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