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Cosgar
ParagonX
3187
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Posted - 2013.07.25 19:50:00 -
[1] - Quote
Source
gbghg wrote:So the finest minds of IRC has been working away and have decided the idea that a borderlands style levelling system would be ideal, namely that what you use you level up. So using a gallente assault nets you points in gallente assault but nothing else, and the same with all the weapons. As for CCP making money I personally think some kind of sp token could be used. An sp token would give you a lump of sp that you could put into any skill you want, helping you reduce the grind but not making any thing aurum only.
Anybody else disturbed by that fact that if this comes to fruition, no-lifers and boosters will get to run rampant? |
Cosgar
ParagonX
3188
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Posted - 2013.07.25 20:52:00 -
[2] - Quote
gbghg wrote:Oso Peresoso wrote:Cosgar wrote:Sourcegbghg wrote:So the finest minds of IRC has been working away and have decided the idea that a borderlands style levelling system would be ideal, namely that what you use you level up. So using a gallente assault nets you points in gallente assault but nothing else, and the same with all the weapons. As for CCP making money I personally think some kind of sp token could be used. An sp token would give you a lump of sp that you could put into any skill you want, helping you reduce the grind but not making any thing aurum only.
Anybody else disturbed by that fact that if this comes to fruition, no-lifers and boosters will get to run rampant? I'm disturbed that you can read some bullshit handwaving about replacing the SP system entirely and come away thinking its a serious idea. Actually it's a semi-serious idea, that a small amount of thought and time was spent on. I just wrote that and stuck it on the forums, so it wasn't lost forever in the IRC chat logs, it's a much more logical way of structuring the SP system, what you use you get better with, rather than the using a use an AR to learn how to use an LAV method we have now. I acknowledge that to do something like this would require significant time and effort, and this idea has several kinks to be worked out, but you shouldn't dismiss an idea because you deem it "bullshit handwaving". If you're going to criticise ate least have the decency to state why you disagree with it. I can't believe they would even consider something like this. If you think AFKing is bad, imagine a bunch of people pew-pewing away with ARs looking for that little "AR skill increased" notification. Not only that, but it's going to increase the gap between newberries and veterans even more while punishing people who don't have time to play 24/7, just like people now who don't cap every week. The SP system we have now is currently flawed, I agree with that, but this isn't the answer. I'd rather see them consider that weekly cap rollover we were promised, or a fully passive SP system. |
Cosgar
ParagonX
3189
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Posted - 2013.07.25 21:02:00 -
[3] - Quote
gbghg wrote:The point of the game is to shoot people, is rewarding people for actually using a weapon really that bad? The people you say are "pewpew'ing" away with AR's would most likely have just run about shooting people with the weapon anyway. What if you want to skill into something other than what you're using? This would destroy cross training. |
Cosgar
ParagonX
3189
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 21:08:00 -
[4] - Quote
There seriously be a vote held on this like with the previous SP system change. If this becomes an overnight decision without taking in all of our consideration, this might be what will drive me to quitting. Hell, I'll even play CoD just out of spite. |
Cosgar
ParagonX
3191
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 21:23:00 -
[5] - Quote
The only way I could see this change even being possible is another reset and you know what would happen if we did get a reset... |
Cosgar
ParagonX
3191
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 21:45:00 -
[6] - Quote
Promethius Franklin wrote:Passive SP doesn't eliminate the issue, it only makes it possible to bypass by waiting for excessively long periods of time which, honestly, is worse than now. Now I can use everything at my disposal, either well or poorly skilled elements, to increase my rage of useable options. Under this system I can only use the passive pool or that individual tool. It doesn't help with any of the perceived failings of our current system and adds unnecessary inflexibility. The problem with passive SP is that there isn't enough substance to the game to support it. Nobody would want to log in if they're not pressured to cap every week. If there were enough to do, like PVE, FW/PC that mattered, more maps, a skill tree that acts like a skill tree, (instead of linear SP sinks) passive SP wouldn't be a problem. If you think it would affect new players, just do what EVE does and give players an accelerated SP gain until a certain point so they can catch up. |
Cosgar
ParagonX
3194
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Posted - 2013.07.25 22:09:00 -
[7] - Quote
Promethius Franklin wrote:Lastly I'd like to know what your idea of a skill tree is. How does ours not act the part?
Source After some extended play in Uprising, there seemed to be a little something missing from Dust 514. I couldn't quite put my finger on it, but something was missing compared to Chromosome. After some discussion in game, observing some battles, and paying attention to the forums, I think I figured out a problem that needs to be addressed.
The current dropsuit/skill system promotes Power Creep In Chromosome, the Standard, Advanced and Prototype dropsuit system worked for several reasons:
- ISK was a balancing factor that prevented prototype spam. Prototype was so expensive, that it was limited to CBs. In pub games, using strictly prototype could seriously hurt the user's income and added more value to STD/ADV fittings.
- Prototype weapons were kept in check because prototype suits were too expensive for everyday use. If a player wanted to use a prototype weapon, they had to either use a prototype suit or give up something on a lower meta level suit to fit it.
- VK.1, T-II, and B-Series sub variants within the suit tiers offered incomperables that balanced dropsuits to be better in different situations, not just all around better. Shield/Armor imbalance in Chromosome didn't fully allow this to come to fruition, but having more choices in a player's fitting selection rather than more raw power was a healthy encouragement.
With all these examples, power creep was at a minimum. Even though there was a sufficient gap between STD/ADV/PRO weapons, the economy prevented everyone from running around in the best gear in the game at all times. This allowed newer players to at least have somewhat of a fighting chance despite the SP gap, veteran players with more SP could specialize in different roles without sacrificing their overall effectiveness and players that did narrow themselves into one specific role were properly rewarded as they should. But when prices were lowered, beta players received a refund for all of their assets, and the changes to the skill tree became more dropsuit, weapon and vehicle specific, this delicate balance was thrown off and created a situation of power creep:
- Prototype dropsuits are too commonplace, therefore making prototype equipment more commonplace as well. Pub matches have degraded into a situation where whoever has the most veteran players winning.
- Because of the abundance of prototype, all players are forced to specialize in one specific role just to compete. This limits how many different roles/fittings a person can use.
- Players that specialized in more than one role are even less effective because the gap between one prototype fitting vs 2~3 STD/ADV fittings available is too wide.
- It's harder for newer players to be able to have a fighting chance. With everyone running prototype, a player has the option of either AFKing for the SP they need to compete, enduring the unnecessarily extensive struggle to be competitive, or quit. Many of which choose the latter.
- Many veteran players are burned out. If you're stuck in one role, it's going to get old. This is why we see so many topics, requesting respecs. Nobody wants to be completely locked into one role like we are now. The common mentality seems to be that you have to grind into prototype X in role Y because it's the only way to compete, it shouldn't be this way. STD/ADV gear is severly devalued because prototype is readily available, more rewarding, and a minimal risk of losing it.....
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Cosgar
ParagonX
3196
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Posted - 2013.07.25 22:29:00 -
[8] - Quote
Promethius Franklin wrote:This doesn't show failing to the skill system itself, rather that the cost of operating at the top end of it isn't high enough to be prohibitive and/or other isk related factors are involved allowing proto to be run more often than it should be.
Actually, per this the skill system is fine so long as operating at the top of it is costly enough. The one real reference here is the idea of things becoming more specific with the skills. Ironically, it actually became more of a tree, and closer to the idea of the statement quoted in the op as well. So the question still remains, what, aside from slowing down the act of being the best in a wider variety of skill based aspects, really changed? And what makes this a failing of a tree, and more importantly, what is a good tree? A good tree should have a wide selection of skills that reward generalists and specialists alike. If you invest in X, Y and Z, you may never be as effective as the guy who fully invests in W but you'll be more flexible. The way the tree is now, you're pretty much locked into your role. Think about it, how many people have you been in a squad with that were able to switch to 2-3 different roles on the fly? If you look at the vehicle skill tree, that's a real skill tree because pilots aren't strictly limited to one role, but can spread themselves out because their vehicle tiers are a series of incomparables- crappy incomparables at the moment, but you get the point.
Edit: The author of this topic has the right idea on how a skill tree should look. (Direct all +1's to J-Lewis) |
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