So, right now... What we have is basically suits and skill bonuses that were given seemingly arbitrary assignments to each suit type with little relation to one another. This creates a whole slew of problems, that have been covered by dozens of people in hundreds of threads in the last 15+ months of dust, which I don't feel bear repeating, since they can easily be summed up as "Nothing is really in a good place right now. Just because everything is bad doesn't mean it's balanced"


With Uprising, CCP at least made some attempt to create a 'racial identity' amongst the suits, varying their bonuses and slot layouts somewhat. While this is the right move, it was not done in the right way. The idea of racial identify needs to be expanded on, as it's an excellent method of creating a distinct role definition for each race and their specializations.


My proposition is as follows :

Homogenize in order to diversify. Start each suit of a given class off with the exact same stats, and then create a set of racial modifiers, followed by specialization modifiers . Within certain allotment restrictions this creates the end result of wildly different suits, with the same general amount of stats, allocated differently. This eliminates all worry of one suit inexplicably having better stats than others, with no explanation as to why.


Example :

Standard Light frame could look like this-

120 shield // 120 armor
1 High // 1 Low // 1 Equipment // 1 Grenade
XX PG // YY CPU
1 Light weapon /// 1 Sidearm Weapon
(Snipping out other stats as they are not needed for this example)


Then one could create racial identities like as follows :


Caldari Light frame :

+50% shield // -50% armor
+1 High slot // -1 Low Slot
(Snip)

Gallente Light Frame "

-50% Shield // +50% Armor
-1 High slot // +1 Lowslot


After those were applied, you could apply Specialization modifiers for say scout suits;

Caldari Scout :

+20% shield. // -40% armor // +X HP shield recharge

Gallente Scout :

-40% shield // + 20% armor // +X passive armor repair




I think these limited examples are enough to illustrate the idea. What is not illustrated, is how to determine what to take and what to add. Essentially, each tier (Militia, Standard, Advanced, and Prototype) would be given a set amount of "Allocation Points" for their stats. Each stat itself would have it's own cost in points to improve, and reward points for applying a penalty which could then be used to improve another stat.

For example, a Low or High slot could be worth 10 allocation points, Shield/Armor HP be worth 5 points every 20 HP, Equipment slots worth 15, Sidearm slots 20, Speed 5 points every .5m/s. And so forth.

These are just rough numbers, and definitely not what each should be. Just using them to help explain the idea. Essentially, They could create the racial identifies something like

"Caldari = Lots of shield, almost no armor, medium speed, low equipment slots"

"MInmatar = Medium shield, Low armor, High speed, High amount equipment slots"

"Gallente =Low shield, High armor, medium speed, low equipment slots"

"Amarr: High shield, High armor, low speed, low equipment slots, decreased slot layout"


Again, these are not suggestions for how the actual racial identities should be, but just examples of how the system should play out. Like said at the start of the post, CCP already attempted something like this, but the allocation of the stats seems arbitrary at best. The purpose of this suggestion is to establish a base line for all suits first, and then diversify from there.


Once the base line of suits + survivability has been established, the first stage of a proper complete balance pass is accomplished. After that, one can then move on to weapons. (But that is a subject for another post entirely)
Edit : Forgot to mention : Revising skill bonuses is also a requisite step in this. Skill bonuses need to be logical and practical.



If this idea takes off, I'd like to request some of the more awesome number crunchers to help conceptualize and flesh out this idea to determine the ideal roles + allocations for an actual proposition to CCP.

I think the balance qq in the community distracts you all from asking for more interesting game modes and interesting Eve interactions from CCP.

I'm still under the impression that the Amarr and predominantly armour tankers over shields.....

But good suggestions. I always wondered why CCP even did racial suits outside of FW rewards.

As corporate Mercenaries wouldn't it make more sense to have more standardised suit types represented by frames produced by corporations like

Viziam, Ishukone, Creodron, Thukker, ect which have unique frames/ skins with very minimal changes between them for their racial affiliation, where suits with bonuses are T2 or factionalised suits.

Factionalised suits could be represented by the chosen frame of the major corporation and have bonuses to reflect the Factions style of combat.

E.g-

Corporate Suits fit under the folloing categories

Medium Frame- Standardised Frame Suits

Caldari- Ishukone, Kaalakiota, Lai Dai

Amarr- Viziam, Carthum, Khanid

Gallentean- Creodron, etc, etc (insert Gallentean producer names)

Minmatar- Seibestor Tribe, Brutor Tribe, Thukker Tribe

Each suit will have its own frame/skin. This way mercs feels no Faction Alliiance when tends to develop in this game and gives game more customisation. All suits are essentially the same. Heavy medsuit, Medium Med suit, Light Medsuit for each race ((and similar suits for Small Frame and Large Frame)).

Then rather than specc into directly into faction suits (which have their bonuses) you choose a corporate dropsuit skill (which has different bonuses more representative and less specific than faction suits) and then begin to diverge in terms of role.

E.g-

Ishukone - Med Medium Frame- More versatile
Kalaakiota- Light Medium Frame- Faster, more Force Recon.
Lai Dai- Heavy Med Suit- More Tank type suit

However these suits don't diverge form the intended roll of the assault class AKA- Light Med does not replace scout, more does heavy med replace heavy, all suits have the benefits and limitations of assault suits. Same goes for heavies, and Scouts, and logi's.

...but I digress this isn't the point of this post. Im sorry.

Agreed OP. more standardisation between suits to make them more diverse at higher levels amd balanced at lower levels makes me happy.

They aren't mutually exclusive, you know :P

This seems too wellbalanced imo. Perfect balance isnt same stats in different areas and honestly this idea just sounds like a massive blow to Gallente Scouts as damn near everything kills armor and putting plates on a Scout is a death sentence.

Youre not taking into account variables like weapons and modules. Explosives do 20% more damage to armor, incidently theyre almost always splash damage weapons, making them easier to use. So a scout having the same armor as a caldari does shields is essentially a nerf as the caldari scout requires more player skill/input to put down with direct fire weapons as opposed to something that makes a 6m crater.

So... No. -1 to this post. Good in theory but this is a game of rock paper scissors, we're looking for the perfect imbalance where suits have counters and specialized roles, not shifting numbers in a happy perfect world where inevitably one weapon/tank style will dominate the field because the other's modules gimp the user who has - with this system - similar stats when it honestly needs more.

hope that makes sense.

Edit: Honestly, this is already true with Caldari/Gallente assault, having mirrored stats - but the shield bonus doesnt help the Gallente worth a damn. Change that bonus to something related to Armor and it would become a very powerful asset.

This seems too wellbalanced imo. Perfect balance isnt same stats in different areas and honestly this idea just sounds like a massive blow to Gallente Scouts as damn near everything kills armor and putting plates on a Scout is a death sentence.

Youre not taking into account variables like weapons and modules. Explosives do 20% more damage to armor, incidently theyre almost always splash damage weapons, making them easier to use. So a scout having the same armor as a caldari does shields is essentially a nerf as the caldari scout requires more player skill/input to put down with direct fire weapons as opposed to something that makes a 6m crater.

So... No. -1 to this post. Good in theory but this is a game of rock paper scissors, we're looking for the perfect imbalance where suits have counters and specialized roles, not shifting numbers in a happy perfect world where inevitably one weapon/tank style will dominate the field because the other's modules gimp the user who has - with this system - similar stats when it honestly needs more.

hope that makes sense.

Edit: Honestly, this is already true with Caldari/Gallente assault, having mirrored stats - but the shield bonus doesnt help the Gallente worth a damn. Change that bonus to something related to Armor and it would become a very powerful asset.

Like you pointed out, It's basically already true. Look at the proto gallente scout atm. 1 high and 4 lows. Eww.

The difference between what I'm proposing and what we have now is CCP basically has (By all appearances) just slapped on whatever stats seem like a good idea at the time. Weapons being good against shield or armor is not being forgotten or unconsidered in this concept.. But before you can properly balance weapons and modules, you need to establish a power base for the suits, since they are at the core of survivability.


Step 1 is get the suits in a good place.
Step 2 is Get Weapons and modules in a good place.
Step 3 is get Vehicles/Turrets in a good place.

And then Bam. Dust sucks just a little bit less :P

Edit : Regarding your "perfect world" Comment. This would actually be the first step to creating a much better rock/paper/scissors environment. That being said, there's no such thing as 'perfect balance'. Especially true in games that have e-sports, constant balance updates are required. If CCP has in their mind that they can keep just tweaking/nerfing whatever is being QQ'd about as OP on the forums and leaving the rest of the broken stuff to rot... They'll be in a horrible spot once they try to implement e-sports.

Look at almost every game that has e-sports in it. They send out balancing/tuning updates on a weekly and sometimes daily basis as needed. CCP has that capability to change pretty much every stat but range on an almost daily basis as well. They just don't do it. (And that's seriously hurt the game)

I actually proposed something similar before to adhere to a more strict "Theme" behind each race, weapon, and defensive type for each race.

Something like this?

Wait, why did you not even list the Gallente major manufacturers, and get the Winmatar ones wrong? Hater

Idea is good but the bonuses in the examples were overly distinctive. 50% bonuses seem rather big. But I always have liked the idea of suits meaning more. But then again this would mean a respec.

Look at the proto gallente scout atm. Eww.

Good idea, but the real problem with defining roles is that everything is working towards the same role, "The Killer," with a bunch of subsets.

Let's start with the scout. Right now they are designed more as fast moving killer. They should be designed to be more of a stealthy guy who can get behind enemy lines and confuse the enemies. To do this, we need to first make changes to other suits. Everyone has a 10 meter scan radius, this needs to be increased substantially, and I mean really really substantially. No one is trying to sneak within 10 meters of an enemy. Take the average distance away the scout tries to sneak from and expand everyone's scan radius to that level, that way people will notice assault players who are trying to sneak but they won't notice scouts. Then fix the scout suit, they're suits should be unique in that whatever they passively scan gets relayed to all teammates, and then make their base hacking speed faster. Now you have the role of scout that can focus on other things to help the team besides strafe killing.

For sentinels, give them a very substantial amount of extra eHP but at the trade off of weaker damage output (note this is for Sentinels, not Heavies. There's a difference). They should be your traditional tanker you see in MMOs, literally a moving wall but with little offensive capabilities. This way they do not focus on killing, but rather as being a human shield for teammates.A means for them to gain WP by defending would then need to be implemented (perhaps if you are a sentinel you can get suppression points similar to BF3. Only sentinels would be eligible for this). As it stands they only get mildly extra eHP at the cost of drastic speed penalty. They are not point defense men, they are very slow killers.


As for assaults, logistics, and commando, nothing fundamental really needs tweaking. Assaults are killers by definition, logistics are support killers, and commandos are again killers by definition. CCP then needs to add more roles that can focus on something other than killin; I personally like the idea of a suit that gives an AOE buff to teammates or AOE anti-buff to enemies.

Ideally, no one should ever need a respec after a proper balance pass. Problem is, we've never had a proper balance pass yet :P

A respec might be in order before things get into a good place, but IMO if the balancing is done properly, the only people who'd want/need a respec are those who chase the perceived FOTM or 'god item'. (Which at that point, should not exist)

It's a good idea in principle but in reality is something very difficult to manage. Not all stats are easy to compare - for instance, how do you balance changes in ehp to changes in speed? And other less obvious stats like profile signature? You can give scouts speed and lower profile but how do you then determine how much ehp this is worth?

This is the big question, that pulls the entire concept together. I didn't feel comfortable suggesting those values without seeing what other people thought. Obviously some people place different values on different stats. But, if that point can be put into a nice place, and a consensus can be found, then this is by far the ideal option towards establishing a proper base line of power and survivability amongst suits, which sets them up to then be in a position to tweak weapons with something to compare their relative power to.