DUST Search - Defining Races and Roles : The first step to proper balancing

Aeon Amadi wrote:

This seems too wellbalanced imo. Perfect balance isnt same stats in different areas and honestly this idea just sounds like a massive blow to Gallente Scouts as damn near everything kills armor and putting plates on a Scout is a death sentence.

Youre not taking into account variables like weapons and modules. Explosives do 20% more damage to armor, incidently theyre almost always splash damage weapons, making them easier to use. So a scout having the same armor as a caldari does shields is essentially a nerf as the caldari scout requires more player skill/input to put down with direct fire weapons as opposed to something that makes a 6m crater.

So... No. -1 to this post. Good in theory but this is a game of rock paper scissors, we're looking for the perfect imbalance where suits have counters and specialized roles, not shifting numbers in a happy perfect world where inevitably one weapon/tank style will dominate the field because the other's modules gimp the user who has - with this system - similar stats when it honestly needs more.

hope that makes sense.

Edit: Honestly, this is already true with Caldari/Gallente assault, having mirrored stats - but the shield bonus doesnt help the Gallente worth a damn. Change that bonus to something related to Armor and it would become a very powerful asset.


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Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 1115	Posted - 2013.07.18 01:20:00 - [1] - Quote So, right now... What we have is basically suits and skill bonuses that were given seemingly arbitrary assignments to each suit type with little relation to one another. This creates a whole slew of problems, that have been covered by dozens of people in hundreds of threads in the last 15+ months of dust, which I don't feel bear repeating, since they can easily be summed up as "Nothing is really in a good place right now. Just because everything is bad doesn't mean it's balanced" With Uprising, CCP at least made some attempt to create a 'racial identity' amongst the suits, varying their bonuses and slot layouts somewhat. While this is the right move, it was not done in the right way. The idea of racial identify needs to be expanded on, as it's an excellent method of creating a distinct role definition for each race and their specializations. My proposition is as follows : Homogenize in order to diversify. Start each suit of a given class off with the exact same stats, and then create a set of racial modifiers, followed by specialization modifiers . Within certain allotment restrictions this creates the end result of wildly different suits, with the same general amount of stats, allocated differently. This eliminates all worry of one suit inexplicably having better stats than others, with no explanation as to why. Example : Standard Light frame could look like this- 120 shield // 120 armor 1 High // 1 Low // 1 Equipment // 1 Grenade XX PG // YY CPU 1 Light weapon /// 1 Sidearm Weapon (Snipping out other stats as they are not needed for this example) Then one could create racial identities like as follows : Caldari Light frame : +50% shield // -50% armor +1 High slot // -1 Low Slot (Snip) Gallente Light Frame " -50% Shield // +50% Armor -1 High slot // +1 Lowslot After those were applied, you could apply Specialization modifiers for say scout suits; Caldari Scout : +20% shield. // -40% armor // +X HP shield recharge Gallente Scout : -40% shield // + 20% armor // +X passive armor repair I think these limited examples are enough to illustrate the idea. What is not illustrated, is how to determine what to take and what to add. Essentially, each tier (Militia, Standard, Advanced, and Prototype) would be given a set amount of "Allocation Points" for their stats. Each stat itself would have it's own cost in points to improve, and reward points for applying a penalty which could then be used to improve another stat. For example, a Low or High slot could be worth 10 allocation points, Shield/Armor HP be worth 5 points every 20 HP, Equipment slots worth 15, Sidearm slots 20, Speed 5 points every .5m/s. And so forth. These are just rough numbers, and definitely not what each should be. Just using them to help explain the idea. Essentially, They could create the racial identifies something like "Caldari = Lots of shield, almost no armor, medium speed, low equipment slots" "MInmatar = Medium shield, Low armor, High speed, High amount equipment slots" "Gallente =Low shield, High armor, medium speed, low equipment slots" "Amarr: High shield, High armor, low speed, low equipment slots, decreased slot layout" Again, these are not suggestions for how the actual racial identities should be, but just examples of how the system should play out. Like said at the start of the post, CCP already attempted something like this, but the allocation of the stats seems arbitrary at best. The purpose of this suggestion is to establish a base line for all suits first, and then diversify from there. Once the base line of suits + survivability has been established, the first stage of a proper complete balance pass is accomplished. After that, one can then move on to weapons. (But that is a subject for another post entirely) Edit : Forgot to mention : Revising skill bonuses is also a requisite step in this. Skill bonuses need to be logical and practical. If this idea takes off, I'd like to request some of the more awesome number crunchers to help conceptualize and flesh out this idea to determine the ideal roles + allocations for an actual proposition to CCP.
Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 1119	Posted - 2013.07.18 02:51:00 - [2] - Quote Telcontar Dunedain wrote: I think the balance qq in the community distracts you all from asking for more interesting game modes and interesting Eve interactions from CCP. They aren't mutually exclusive, you know :P
Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 1120	Posted - 2013.07.18 03:47:00 - [3] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: This seems too wellbalanced imo. Perfect balance isnt same stats in different areas and honestly this idea just sounds like a massive blow to Gallente Scouts as damn near everything kills armor and putting plates on a Scout is a death sentence. Youre not taking into account variables like weapons and modules. Explosives do 20% more damage to armor, incidently theyre almost always splash damage weapons, making them easier to use. So a scout having the same armor as a caldari does shields is essentially a nerf as the caldari scout requires more player skill/input to put down with direct fire weapons as opposed to something that makes a 6m crater. So... No. -1 to this post. Good in theory but this is a game of rock paper scissors, we're looking for the perfect imbalance where suits have counters and specialized roles, not shifting numbers in a happy perfect world where inevitably one weapon/tank style will dominate the field because the other's modules gimp the user who has - with this system - similar stats when it honestly needs more. hope that makes sense. Edit: Honestly, this is already true with Caldari/Gallente assault, having mirrored stats - but the shield bonus doesnt help the Gallente worth a damn. Change that bonus to something related to Armor and it would become a very powerful asset. Like you pointed out, It's basically already true. The difference is CCP basically has (By all appearances) just slapped on whatever stats seem like a good idea at the time. Weapons being good against shield or armor is not being forgotten or unconsidered. But before you can properly balance weapons and modules, you need to establish a power base for the suits, since they are at the core of survivability. Step 1 is get the suits in a good place. Step 2 is Get Weapons and modules in a good place. Step 3 is get Vehicles/Turrets in a good place. And then Bam. Dust sucks just a little bit less :P
Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 1120	Posted - 2013.07.18 04:08:00 - [4] - Quote No, in simplest terms, I'm basically saying "CCP, make some rules for content creation, so that we don't keep seeing random stats that make no sense on suits" If the players know exactly what is determining the stats of each, they can easily propose balance tweaks within those systems that CCP can carry out promptly, and it goes a long way towards reducing the amount of "WTF WERE YOU THINKING CCP" when we get new content. By introducing a base line for the suits and then pre-defined (and shared with the players) racial and specialization modifiers, stats on suits make much more sense. Moving forward, since every suit can then have wildly different stats within the same limitations, no suit should then be 'the best' on it's own. Considerations for weapons and modules can be address in another post, since I didn't want to digress too much from the topic at hand. But ideally, at the end of all this there should not be anything that is a 'clear winner' against /everything/ else (even if some things may be /more preferred/ by the playerbase.) Once CCP makes a proper balance pass on all of their existing content and sets them to adhere to certain guidelines, minor balance tweaks on a consistant and frequent basis become a walk in the park. No more waiting months/years for something to get fixed while they 'investigate'
Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 1125	Posted - 2013.07.18 08:18:00 - [5] - Quote Ansiiis The Trustworthy wrote: Idea is good but the bonuses in the examples were overly distinctive. 50% bonuses seem rather big. But I always have liked the idea of suits meaning more. But then again this would mean a respec. Ideally, no one should ever need a respec after a proper balance pass. Problem is, we've never had a proper balance pass yet :P A respec might be in order before things get into a good place, but IMO if the balancing is done properly, the only people who'd want/need a respec are those who chase the perceived FOTM or 'god item'. (Which at that point, should not exist)
Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 1252	Posted - 2013.07.26 10:00:00 - [6] - Quote Django Quik wrote: It's a good idea in principle but in reality is something very difficult to manage. Not all stats are easy to compare - for instance, how do you balance changes in ehp to changes in speed? And other less obvious stats like profile signature? You can give scouts speed and lower profile but how do you then determine how much ehp this is worth? This is the big question, that pulls the entire concept together. I didn't feel comfortable suggesting those values without seeing what other people thought. Obviously some people place different values on different stats. But, if that point can be put into a nice place, and a consensus can be found, then this is by far the ideal option towards establishing a proper base line of power and survivability amongst suits, which sets them up to then be in a position to tweak weapons with something to compare their relative power to.