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Nova Knife
Seituoda Taskforce Command
Caldari State
1252
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Posted - 2013.07.26 10:00:00 -
[31] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:It's a good idea in principle but in reality is something very difficult to manage. Not all stats are easy to compare - for instance, how do you balance changes in ehp to changes in speed? And other less obvious stats like profile signature? You can give scouts speed and lower profile but how do you then determine how much ehp this is worth?
This is the big question, that pulls the entire concept together. I didn't feel comfortable suggesting those values without seeing what other people thought. Obviously some people place different values on different stats. But, if that point can be put into a nice place, and a consensus can be found, then this is by far the ideal option towards establishing a proper base line of power and survivability amongst suits, which sets them up to then be in a position to tweak weapons with something to compare their relative power to.
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J-Lewis
Edimmu Warfighters
Gallente Federation
250
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Posted - 2013.07.26 10:35:00 -
[32] - Quote
Nova Knife wrote:Django Quik wrote:It's a good idea in principle but in reality is something very difficult to manage. Not all stats are easy to compare - for instance, how do you balance changes in ehp to changes in speed? And other less obvious stats like profile signature? You can give scouts speed and lower profile but how do you then determine how much ehp this is worth? This is the big question, that pulls the entire concept together. I didn't feel comfortable suggesting those values without seeing what other people thought. Obviously some people place different values on different stats. But, if that point can be put into a nice place, and a consensus can be found, then this is by far the ideal option towards establishing a proper base line of power and survivability amongst suits, which sets them up to then be in a position to tweak weapons with something to compare their relative power to.
The easiest way to judge the value of incomperables (such as profile vs HP) is to think in counters, enablers and weaknesses. In other words, what is the play style? How much balancing for skill is needed?
Some examples:
What does a suit with high HP counter and enable? What is its weakness? It enables you to soak more damage, which works best against suits with low damage numbers, or it directly counters burst damage units who tend to have great alpha but poor sustained DPS. HP Tanks synergize well with support units who can keep them healed. The weakness of HP tanks is high sustained DPS units and whatever malus is imposed by their tanking methodology.
What does a suit with low profile counter and enable? What is its weakness? It enables you to pass below the radar of low scan precision suits, to perform surprise attacks on vulnerable targets. Synergizes well with burst damage, which makes it perfect for taking out medium-low HP targets such as snipers, support (new logis), Light AV, other stealth units, and so on... The weakness of stealth units is detection -- e.g. suits with good scan precision -- which ruins their element of surprise and usually turns them into high priority targets.
Which is more valuable? Well, they're incomperables, so they're about as valuable as each other really. How much each stat is tweaked isn't as important as what those stats enable. HP is a defensive defense stat, profile is an offensive defense stat. |
Vyzion Eyri
The Southern Legion
1074
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Posted - 2013.07.26 10:40:00 -
[33] - Quote
Combining this with "tiercide" might make it simpler as well as more enjoyable to decide what to be on the battlefield.
That is, if the std/adv/pro model was replaced by something akin to EVE's T1/T2 model, with suits differentiated based on roles only, and skills reflect this.
I think, though, balancing the game now, with these small-ish maps and 16v16 games, is spitting in DUST's true potential. For example, a logistics suit with no main weapon would be fine if games were big enough that instead of losing a point because your defense was removed with some well-thrown grenades and a tank, you were slowly pushed back from the point and forced to retreat to a better fortified position. All this while, a logibro wouldn't need a weapon because there'd be always teammates around him, it'd become blob vs. blob, except the blobs never truly die. All this while, the logibro can be reviving, resupplying, repairing; a true force multiplier, bringing order and a respite from the chaos.
Another example. Imagine a map with big roads like the ones we have now, except indoors. And now leading off these big roads are small, maze-like passageways. A scout who dedicated him/herself to learning the layout of this maze would dominate the compound, being able to strike from the shadows and lose pursuers in his maze. This is where bonuses to movement speed and scan profile become so useful.
Also, a dropship in maps where NULL cannons are separated by mountain ranges, ravines or by labyrinth-like rock formations would be so much more useful than a dropship in these maps of open skies and no where to hide. Huge maps, with 10+ NULL cannon installations, and another 5 or so anti-NULL cannon installations, for example. Enough players per game to have fights over at least half these installations at once. The dropship shines in these situations.
If we are to define races and roles, use this to diversify as well as remove SP sinks, and also compress all tiers down and essentially expand diversity sideways into variants instead of upwards into tiers, then we need the whole game be defined with it. It's a big task, I don't envy CCP.
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