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Himiko Kuronaga
SyNergy Gaming EoN.
864
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 13:06:00 -
[1] - Quote
Armor plated heavies can not avoid grenades thrown at them, especially if cooked. Movement simply does not permit it. Yet the sentinel especially is supposed to be played this way, for the most part.
Now I want you to think about this for a moment. Locus grenades get a bonus to damage against armor, rendering all that extra HP worthless. And we cannot avoid them. AND everyone can carry them.
So what this means is that, by default, everyone has access to a double-hard counter against proper armor tanked heavies which cannot be avoided in any way shape or form. The only way to avoid it is to not use it, ever.
Our hard-counter to infantry, the HMG, can be outrun, outranged, and outstrafed. The proper counter to shields, the flux grenade, can be outrun as well. Every "counter" in this game can still be outmaneuvered if you are skilled enough, except for the counters that the heavy has to deal with because he simply cannot maneuver. When the Heavy faces a counter, he has already lost unless there is major incompetence going on with his opponent.
The only fair answers to this are either an extreme buff across the board or better movement. |
General John Ripper
The Generals EoN.
1793
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 13:08:00 -
[2] - Quote
<- this thread |
Himiko Kuronaga
SyNergy Gaming EoN.
864
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 13:10:00 -
[3] - Quote
General John Ripper wrote:<- this thread
Cook grenade, throw grenade, fire a few shots and the heavy is dead before he can do anything to you, let alone rev up his HMG for the full second it takes for it to actually hurt you -- AND THEN pray that he's tracking you well enough despite your strafing.
Doesn't matter much if you disagree with me, the science isn't wrong here.
Heavy is at a severe disadvantage, period. |
oso tiburon
The Generals EoN.
186
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 13:12:00 -
[4] - Quote
General John Ripper wrote:<- this thread no i agree somewhat heavys should have sometype of armor resitance built in raising their ehp not so much as a buff in hp but a built in armor hardner similar to the ones i use on my tanks . my movement base speed is 4 Ms add plates .. down she goes i cant dodge **** i have to just keep on walking down untill i either kill them all or get killed |
Delta 749
Kestrel Reconnaissance
1297
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 13:14:00 -
[5] - Quote
"Waaah, stuff kills me because I chose a big ass target with a dangerous weapon"
Now Im sure you at least seen TF2 being played, how quickly does a heavy fall without medic to back him up? The same principle applies here However that isnt to say there arent some problems, for instance the sentinel and commando seem to have their bonus' switched After all it would make far more sense for the defense oriented sentinel to receive a bonus to shields and armor since the Amarr suits seem to be set to use a bit of both to survive while a commando would benefit more from having reduced damage feedback if he got overzealous while say running around with a laser rifle and scrambler rifle to cover various ranges since those weapons are supposed to be the Amarr bread and butter |
Delta 749
Kestrel Reconnaissance
1297
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Posted - 2013.07.15 13:16:00 -
[6] - Quote
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:General John Ripper wrote:<- this thread Cook grenade, throw grenade, fire a few shots and the heavy is dead before he can do anything to you, let alone rev up his HMG for the full second it takes for it to actually hurt you -- AND THEN pray that he's tracking you well enough despite your strafing. Doesn't matter much if you disagree with me, the science isn't wrong here. Heavy is at a severe disadvantage, period.
Cook grenade, throw grenade, fire no shots as that will kill pretty much every other suit aside from a completely tank stacked cal logi and at that point they may as well be in a heavy suit since they will have similar movement speeds |
Himiko Kuronaga
SyNergy Gaming EoN.
864
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 13:16:00 -
[7] - Quote
Delta 749 wrote:"Waaah, stuff kills me because I chose a big ass target with a dangerous weapon"
Now Im sure you at least seen TF2 being played, how quickly does a heavy fall without medic to back him up? The same principle applies here However that isnt to say there arent some problems, for instance the sentinel and commando seem to have their bonus' switched After all it would make far more sense for the defense oriented sentinel to receive a bonus to shields and armor since the Amarr suits seem to be set to use a bit of both to survive while a commando would benefit more from having reduced damage feedback if he got overzealous while say running around with a laser rifle and scrambler rifle to cover various ranges since those weapons are supposed to be the Amarr bread and butter
Grenades out-burst what a logi can rep.
Try again. |
ChromeBreaker
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
857
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 13:18:00 -
[8] - Quote
Anyone going to argue with this guy? its too hot here and i cant be bothered
OP yes grenades are quite good against heavies...
No they are not the end all super counter that makes them redundant and calls for a huge hp buff
take my word for it
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Delta 749
Kestrel Reconnaissance
1297
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 13:22:00 -
[9] - Quote
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:Delta 749 wrote:"Waaah, stuff kills me because I chose a big ass target with a dangerous weapon"
Now Im sure you at least seen TF2 being played, how quickly does a heavy fall without medic to back him up? The same principle applies here However that isnt to say there arent some problems, for instance the sentinel and commando seem to have their bonus' switched After all it would make far more sense for the defense oriented sentinel to receive a bonus to shields and armor since the Amarr suits seem to be set to use a bit of both to survive while a commando would benefit more from having reduced damage feedback if he got overzealous while say running around with a laser rifle and scrambler rifle to cover various ranges since those weapons are supposed to be the Amarr bread and butter Grenades out-burst what a logi can rep. Try again.
As they should and as I said in another post they kill everyone else outright while heavies have at least a chance to retaliate but you dont see scouts or assaults complaining about cooked grenades do you? Contact ones sure but not cooked grenades Sounds like you just want to be invulnerable to everything, maybe a nice game of unreal with bots set to super easy would be more your speed if you cant handle getting shot by people |
Himiko Kuronaga
SyNergy Gaming EoN.
864
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 13:22:00 -
[10] - Quote
ChromeBreaker wrote:Anyone going to argue with this guy? its too hot here and i cant be bothered
OP yes grenades are quite good against heavies...
No they are not the end all super counter that makes them redundant and calls for a huge hp buff
take my word for it
Do you run 4 complex plates on your heavy? If not, why should anyone take your word for anything?
Delta 749 wrote:
Cook grenade, throw grenade, fire no shots as that will kill pretty much every other suit aside from a completely tank stacked cal logi and at that point they may as well be in a heavy suit since they will have similar movement speeds
You don't have to be where the grenade is, however. You have movement to prevent such situations from happening.
The heavy does not. This is what makes it a hard counter. |
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Delta 749
Kestrel Reconnaissance
1297
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 13:34:00 -
[11] - Quote
Delta 749 wrote:
Cook grenade, throw grenade, fire no shots as that will kill pretty much every other suit aside from a completely tank stacked cal logi and at that point they may as well be in a heavy suit since they will have similar movement speeds
You don't have to be where the grenade is, however. You have movement to prevent such situations from happening.
The heavy does not. This is what makes it a hard counter.[/quote]
A properly cooked grenade doesnt give the target time to run away You chose a specialized role so suck it up and learn how to play it effectively, are this games nuances different from other games hell yeah they are but is learning an installations layout, optimal firing lanes, cover locations, and ambush spots difficult? Hell no and if you cant compensate for it then you are just a bad player I use that knowledge to predict where people tossing grenades are most likely to be and the most likely place they will throw them and you know what? I dont ******* go there because I have two brain cells to rub together
And dont give me that "waah I used to many armor plates so Im slow" Hybrid tanking is a thing and sacrificing one plate for an extender and maybe a kincat wont be the end of the world |
Delta 749
Kestrel Reconnaissance
1297
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 13:35:00 -
[12] - Quote
Stupid double posting bug |
Delta 749
Kestrel Reconnaissance
1297
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 13:36:00 -
[13] - Quote
Quote:Delta 749 wrote:Delta 749 wrote:
Cook grenade, throw grenade, fire no shots as that will kill pretty much every other suit aside from a completely tank stacked cal logi and at that point they may as well be in a heavy suit since they will have similar movement speeds
You don't have to be where the grenade is, however. You have movement to prevent such situations from happening. The heavy does not. This is what makes it a hard counter. A properly cooked grenade doesnt give the target time to run away You chose a specialized role so suck it up and learn how to play it effectively, are this games nuances different from other games hell yeah they are but is learning an installations layout, optimal firing lanes, cover locations, and ambush spots difficult? Hell no and if you cant compensate for it then you are just a bad player I use that knowledge to predict where people tossing grenades are most likely to be and the most likely place they will throw them and you know what? I dont ******* go there because I have two brain cells to rub together And dont give me that "waah I used to many armor plates so Im slow" Hybrid tanking is a thing and sacrificing one plate for an extender and maybe a kincat wont be the end of the world
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Noc Tempre
Internal Error. League of Infamy
2161
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 13:42:00 -
[14] - Quote
Hmm. Hate to say it PS2 handles this elegantly as well. MAX suit can take a hell of a beating, but relies on support to heal. In exchange it takes HEAVILY REDUCED DAMAGE from all light arms. Heavy assaults have an entire 3rd layer of shields that can drastically improve their staying power. If you don't like explosives there are upgrades specifically dedicated to surviving them like a champ.
Heavies in DUST have ... the premier vehicle hard counter sniper rifle and a marshmallow cannon. One too good, the other no good. On a suit with only 2-3 extra bullets of health. |
Chibi Andy
Forsaken Immortals Top Men.
374
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 13:44:00 -
[15] - Quote
CCP doesnt acknowledge the existence of the heavies, we're just something they scribbled in the corner of their idea page. |
ER-Bullitt
Molon Labe. League of Infamy
79
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 13:46:00 -
[16] - Quote
4x complex armor plates is just... lol
Do people really use the Sentinel suit?
Amarr Heavy Ak.0 has room for 2x Complex Shield Extenders. That will leave you with 651 shield (with max shield skill), enough to tank a grenade and have some shields left over if you are engaged at full health. And then you can stack 3x Complex Shield Regulators to reduce recharge delay by almost 60% to help you be at full shield more often during battle. If you normally run around all plated out with -40% movement penalty the above suit will feel like a scout running around all fast and sheet.
Think you will be too squishy without all your armor HP then toss in some plates/repairers if needed.. depending on your logisupport. Seems like pure-logi's may be hard to comeby when most PC battles seem to center around who can kill the most clones the fastest.
You can also consider running Complex Recharger/Extender combo on the high side.
Try some different fittings out you may be pleasantly surprised with the results. |
Himiko Kuronaga
SyNergy Gaming EoN.
864
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 13:51:00 -
[17] - Quote
I have a full kinkat suit I wear as well. It's hilarious for trolling bad players but when you're in actual combat it doesnt help anything. Strafe speed isn't affected and its still too slow to avoid anyone who knows anything about how to counter strafe tech, so you become the easiest target on the field.
Meanwhile HMG takes too long to rev up if you're standing still, your HP value is too low to survive all of the incoming DPS, and if you strafe yourself your accuracy becomes too terrible to make a dent to a well-tanked well-strafing adversary.
It doesn't matter what route you take. The heavy is low-tier in direct engagements. |
Oso Peresoso
RisingSuns
330
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 13:57:00 -
[18] - Quote
Heavies are slow. Like elephants, they must take care as to where they tread. |
ER-Bullitt
Molon Labe. League of Infamy
80
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 14:01:00 -
[19] - Quote
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:I have a full kinkat suit I wear as well. It's hilarious for trolling bad players but when you're in actual combat it doesnt help anything. Strafe speed isn't affected and its still too slow to avoid anyone who knows anything about how to counter strafe tech, so you become the easiest target on the field.
Meanwhile HMG takes too long to rev up if you're standing still, your HP value is too low to survive all of the incoming DPS, and if you strafe yourself your accuracy becomes too terrible to make a dent to a well-tanked well-strafing adversary.
It doesn't matter what route you take. The heavy is low-tier in direct engagements.
I agree, in terms of stopping power the heavy/hmg combo is lackluster in the fights that matter. Heck, for CQC with a fast moving suit I will often times switch to my SMG, leaving the HMG for those medium range encounters or popping people coming around corners that dont know I'm there. But, that may be just fine as long as we fill some type of a useful role. KDR means bubkiss. Suppression, Forge Guns, Point Defense, Bullet Sponge (tank).... stepping out in front of your assault buddy about to die to eat some of those bullets. Things of that nature are all still quite useful in my humble opinion.
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ChromeBreaker
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
857
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 14:02:00 -
[20] - Quote
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:ChromeBreaker wrote:Anyone going to argue with this guy? its too hot here and i cant be bothered
OP yes grenades are quite good against heavies...
No they are not the end all super counter that makes them redundant and calls for a huge hp buff
take my word for it
Do you run 4 complex plates on your heavy? If not, why should anyone take your word for anything? You're talking with this "I can't be bothered" superior attitude and for the life of me I can't figure out why. Are you supposed to be relevant or something?
no literally its like 35degC in my office and it takes effort to deal with you ... i do feel a little supirior in that i play as heavies and really dont find grenades much of a problem... .
I try to make relevant conversation... such as...
The reason you have such problems getting away from grenades is prob because your running 4 complex plates.
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jamstar saa187
Imperial Populicide Legion Alpha Wolf Pack
31
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 14:04:00 -
[21] - Quote
i agree with most of the issues mentioned with in this thread. but i think there may be a reason for the perceived lack of movement by CCP on the Heavy Mechanics problem. we speak alot about the turn speed of the Heavy suit (or the lack thereof) and how this affects it's effectiveness in CQC, but i saw a video on the weekend of a Heavy suit turning like a pro, with what seemed no different turn speed to that of an assault suit. that was accomplished using a KB/M as opposed to using the SIxaxis.
i only use the Sixaxis to play, and i find the turning speed to be a major problem. I know the person who made the vido to use a KB/M and it seemed he had no issues with tuning speed at all. I mention this to say that CCP is dealing with two distinctly different playing styles and experiences, and are trying to harmonize the two. I am skeptical as to whether this is even possible, but any changes they make will inevitably have a different result depending on what device you use to play the game.
so, for example (and im just theorizing here) what if CCP is using the KB/M to do quality control testing on the game, will they pick up some of the issues that the Sixaxis players are having? im not so sure. |
ER-Bullitt
Molon Labe. League of Infamy
80
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 14:05:00 -
[22] - Quote
ChromeBreaker wrote:Himiko Kuronaga wrote:ChromeBreaker wrote:Anyone going to argue with this guy? its too hot here and i cant be bothered
OP yes grenades are quite good against heavies...
No they are not the end all super counter that makes them redundant and calls for a huge hp buff
take my word for it
Do you run 4 complex plates on your heavy? If not, why should anyone take your word for anything? You're talking with this "I can't be bothered" superior attitude and for the life of me I can't figure out why. Are you supposed to be relevant or something? no literally its like 35degC in my office and it takes effort to deal with you ... i do feel a little supirior in that i play as heavies and really dont find grenades much of a problem... . I try to make relevant conversation... such as... The reason you have such problems getting away from grenades is prob because your running 4 complex plates.
IN pub matches you may get 1-2 grenades tossed at you at any given time, some cooked, some not... and I agree that is not a big problem.
IN PC matches, you may get over 9000 fused grenades toss at you any given time... that is a problem. Very tough to avoid for anyone, especially the heavy.
This game has been referenced as Explosions514... and it seems to be the case now. Lots of MD, Flaylock and Fused Grenade spam... which is a terrible idea against a slow armor heavy suit. Give me back my B-Series lol. |
ChromeBreaker
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
857
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 14:12:00 -
[23] - Quote
ER-Bullitt wrote:ChromeBreaker wrote:Himiko Kuronaga wrote:ChromeBreaker wrote:Anyone going to argue with this guy? its too hot here and i cant be bothered
OP yes grenades are quite good against heavies...
No they are not the end all super counter that makes them redundant and calls for a huge hp buff
take my word for it
Do you run 4 complex plates on your heavy? If not, why should anyone take your word for anything? You're talking with this "I can't be bothered" superior attitude and for the life of me I can't figure out why. Are you supposed to be relevant or something? no literally its like 35degC in my office and it takes effort to deal with you ... i do feel a little supirior in that i play as heavies and really dont find grenades much of a problem... . I try to make relevant conversation... such as... The reason you have such problems getting away from grenades is prob because your running 4 complex plates. IN pub matches you may get 1-2 grenades tossed at you at any given time, some cooked, some not... and I agree that is not a big problem. IN PC matches, you may get over 9000 fused grenades toss at you any given time... that is a problem. Very tough to avoid for anyone, especially the heavy. This game has been referenced as Explosions514... and it seems to be the case now. Lots of MD, Flaylock and Fused Grenade spam... which is a terrible idea against a slow armor heavy suit. Give me back my B-Series lol.
MD's, godlocks and contacts are the new Tac's... theyre good against everything lol... but heavies are getting the worst of it to be true...
I play PC, i know what you mean, but the situation can also be good for the heavy with its increased hp alowing it to survive where other suits die.
I just disagree with the whole "grenades are always murdering my heavy! MOAR HP" |
ER-Bullitt
Molon Labe. League of Infamy
80
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 14:19:00 -
[24] - Quote
I may have to disagree with you a bit. The "go-to" assault style suit in PC right now is the Caldari Logi... and those guys are pushing 900-1000 HP with better movement/jump ability than the heavy suit, better shield recharge rate/delay as well..
My Heavy Ak.0 suit with stacked extenders and plates has about 1500hp with about 25% movement penalty, and super slow shield recharge rate and delay (depleted takes a whopping 10 seconds). If I stack regulators or recharges, I sacrifice eHP... catch 22.
Which suit would you rather be in when the pro quarterbacks start throwing touchdown passes while standing on a proto nanohive?
The problem right now is explosions... too many of them.
Fixes:
Remove fused grenades.
Reduce grenade count to max 2
Do not allow grenades to be restocked through nanohives, or require them to take ALOT more time... like 5 seconds between grenade restocks.
We will see a new style of gameplay, one which any die-hard FPS fan would welcome... shoot first, grenade second. More gun game, less lolsplosions. |
ChromeBreaker
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
857
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 14:31:00 -
[25] - Quote
ER-Bullitt wrote:I may have to disagree with you a bit. The "go-to" assault style suit in PC right now is the Caldari Logi... and those guys are pushing 900-1000 HP with better movement/jump ability than the heavy suit, better shield recharge rate/delay as well..
My Heavy Ak.0 suit with stacked extenders and plates has about 1500hp with about 25% movement penalty, and super slow shield recharge rate and delay (depleted takes a whopping 10 seconds). If I stack regulators or recharges, I sacrifice eHP... catch 22.
Which suit would you rather be in when the pro quarterbacks start throwing touchdown passes while standing on a proto nanohive?
The problem right now is explosions... too many of them.
Fixes:
Remove fused grenades.
Reduce grenade count to max 2
Do not allow grenades to be restocked through nanohives, or require them to take ALOT more time... like 5 seconds between grenade restocks.
We will see a new style of gameplay, one which any die-hard FPS fan would welcome... shoot first, grenade second. More gun game, less lolsplosions.
I run mine with double complex dmg mods, twin repairers and a plate... im not slowed dwn too bad and put out a lot of punishment. I still have nearly 1100hp and can happily jump away from a grenade... 25% penelty is WAY too much and more of a problem than the extra armour makes up for. |
ER-Bullitt
Molon Labe. League of Infamy
81
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 14:57:00 -
[26] - Quote
Word... I can only image what a Sentinel with 4x Comp Plates moves like... ouch.
My favorite suit to run in pubs was 2x shld rechargers, 2x shld regulators and 1x repairer. Only 1k hp and CPU was a bit of a problem, but it all came back so fast :) |
Himiko Kuronaga
SyNergy Gaming EoN.
867
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 15:28:00 -
[27] - Quote
Oso Peresoso wrote:Heavies are slow. Like elephants, they must take care as to where they tread.
Elephants cause more damage than a Heavy.
Pretty sure they can tank more too.
ChromeBreaker wrote:Himiko Kuronaga wrote:ChromeBreaker wrote:Anyone going to argue with this guy? its too hot here and i cant be bothered
OP yes grenades are quite good against heavies...
No they are not the end all super counter that makes them redundant and calls for a huge hp buff
take my word for it
Do you run 4 complex plates on your heavy? If not, why should anyone take your word for anything? You're talking with this "I can't be bothered" superior attitude and for the life of me I can't figure out why. Are you supposed to be relevant or something? no literally its like 35degC in my office and it takes effort to deal with you ... i do feel a little supirior in that i play as heavies and really dont find grenades much of a problem... . I try to make relevant conversation... such as... The reason you have such problems getting away from grenades is prob because your running 4 complex plates.
Yes, but we're supposed to.
We already can't strafe for **** and running a bunch of kinkats doesn't help in combat itself so it's a waste for the most part. So you can stack plates or you can stack reps, those are the only two semi-effective options. If you go halfway you don't do either job effectively.
And currently if you focus on one thing only, you either die to grenades (plates) or die to everything else (reps).
And seeing as how everyone carries grenades, it pretty much just means dying in general.
Unless, of course, you just forge gun everybody to death from a place they can't touch you. Which currently is the working strategy. |
Himiko Kuronaga
SyNergy Gaming EoN.
867
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 15:36:00 -
[28] - Quote
double post |
pegasis prime
The Shadow Cavalry Mercenaries DARKSTAR ARMY
572
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 15:39:00 -
[29] - Quote
Heavys in this build are technically hybrid tankers so if you have a big enougb shield it should buffer the dammage a bit . I learnd not to run away from tge direction the grenade came from but towarfs it as most folks over throw tge grenade. |
Himiko Kuronaga
SyNergy Gaming EoN.
867
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 15:42:00 -
[30] - Quote
Doesn't matter if we hybrid tank or not.
Heavy strafe is **** and heavies die faster than every other suit regardless of their HP.
HP value is too low for a "suck it up and tank" class. |
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