This fix is supposed to make shields and armor have unique roles.


Please read GÇ£[P2] Roles of shield and armourGÇ¥, where the roles of shield and armor are covered.


Here are the list of things done, I will then expand on each:
-All plates HP increased by 2x
-Plates movement penalties changed to 5/7.5/10
-Armor reps changed to 5/7.5/10
-Armor reps now have a unique mechanic
-Gallente suits are given an inherent 5hp/s regeneration, helping lower level armor tanking


You might see the 2x HP increase and think GÇ£WTFGÇ¥, and I expected that.
But see, armor is supposed to have much higher HP than shields do, but because we need to use half our slots for reps, the HP gained is lost, while still having less reps.


But then you think GÇ£But didnGÇÖt you just increase reps amount?GÇ¥, and thatGÇÖs true, but hear me out on this.
This is the main part of the idea:
If you read the Roles of shield and armor part, then you would know that shields are skirmishers, they dictate their range, get out of battle, regenerate quickly and come back.
Armor is a brawler, taking a good punch while dealing lots of damage and regenerating under fire, but need repair tools to repair properly outside of battle.
Armor is also slow, which means it canGÇÖt dictate range, and canGÇÖt run out of battle as quickly, and its a very easy target.
Also has problems with power projection, taking time to respond to enemies taking your objectives, or teammates need help.
So taking this into consideration, I have got an idea to solidify the armor tanking role.
When you take damage from an enemy (not just any damage, like fall damage), your reps work at 100%.
The longer time has passed from the last time you took damage, the slower your reps work, down to 25% at the lowest level.
It goes like this:
0-5 seconds = 100%
5-10 seconds = 75%
10-15 seconds = 50%
15 seconds and beyond = 25%


The basic and enhanced plates penalty has been increased, because in its current form, the penalty rises very disproportionately to the HP gained.
This fixes the problem, making complex plates worthwhile.


New plates numbers:
Basic plate = 130HP, -5% speed
Enhanced plate = 174HP - 7.5% speed
Complex plate = 230HP - 10% speed


Some numbers.
Gallente Assault:
210 Armor HP + 230HP + 230HP (2x Complex plates) = 670 HP
The other two slots are used for armor repairers, and in addition to the inherent rep speed this turns into 25hp/s of regeneration at the first 5 seconds you take damage.
After 15 seconds this rep drops to 25%, putting it at 6.25, which is painfully slow.

But what if a Shield suit gets a hold of these new modules? Since our HP is lost to repairers and we usually need 2 repairers to be good it means shield suits will have higher HP, again, like always. Unless the 2x increase is a racial bonus, which everybody and their grandma that isn't a armor suit will ***** about, it will make no difference.

But what if a Shield suit gets a hold of these new modules? Since our HP is lost to repairers and we usually need 2 repairers to be good it means shield suits will have higher HP, again, like always. Unless the 2x increase is a racial bonus, which everybody and their grandma that isn't a armor suit will ***** about, it will make no difference.

Lets say we have a two suits an Assault CK.0 and a Assault GK.0

So for the Assault CK.0 we have 4x complex shields, and 3x basic armor which is now 130 HP, this gives them a combined EHP of 654 not counting base stats and since they do not need armor repairs this fit is fine. For a Assault GK.0 lets give him 3x complex shields, 3x basic armor and 1x repairer, this gives him a combined HP of 588 and repair of 12.5.

But what if a Shield suit gets a hold of these new modules? Since our HP is lost to repairers and we usually need 2 repairers to be good it means shield suits will have higher HP, again, like always. Unless the 2x increase is a racial bonus, which everybody and their grandma that isn't a armor suit will ***** about, it will make no difference.

Lets say we have a two suits an Assault CK.0 and a Assault GK.0

So for the Assault CK.0 we have 4x complex shields, and 3x basic armor which is now 130 HP, this gives them a combined EHP of 654 not counting base stats and since they do not need armor repairs this fit is fine. For a Assault GK.0 lets give him 3x complex shields, 3x basic armor and 1x repairer, this gives him a combined HP of 588 and repair of 12.5. If the GK.0 went buffer tank it would have 718 HP but with no way to repair this is a fairly weak fit.

You're comparing complex extenders to basic plates?
Do the math again, this time with complex plates, see where that gets you.
Also, put some extenders on.

Oky dok. But I do have extenders on?

CK.0

4x Complex shields = 264
2x Complex armor = 230
1x Complex repair = 10 HP

CK.0

4x Complex shields = 264
3x Complex armor = 690

GK.0

3x Complex shields = 198
3x Complex armor = 690
1x Complex repairer = 10 HP

GK.0 BUFFER

3x Complex shields = 198
4x Complex armor = 920

Seems to work pretty well, but we would need to increase weapon damage before 3 clip kills come into play.

That's at the complex level mind you.
Duvolle + 15% damage from the skill + 1x complex damage mod = 2782.5 damage per clip.

Shots gotta hit, the average accuracy for FPS players is 30% so thats like 834 damage.

Now that's just insanity tbh.

Shots gotta hit, the average accuracy for FPS players is 30% so thats like 834 damage.

And extenders extend your hit box.

Forgot about that, carry-on, this seems to be a good fix. Although I still think damage should be increased :)

What do you mean?

Forgot that the whole suggestion by Cat Merc included increasing the hit box, and thus a shield suit stacking armor + shields would pretty much be committing suicide.

Wait, did I just solve dual tanking being the best thing ever?
Yeah, I totally intended that!
Totally...

With this in place I would actually use Damage modifiers :)

Forgot that the whole suggestion by Cat Merc included increasing the hit box, and thus a shield suit stacking armor + shields would pretty much be committing suicide.

EDIT: Although wouldn't it be better to increase armor racially instead of completely, since doubling its HP would make every suit a dual tank or an armor tank.

Oh well, regardless of what we say and how good, or bad, our ideas are, the truth still stands that CCP isn't going to do anything, and if they do, it won't be now it will be SOON Gäó or about 6 months to 10 years from now. By the time they fix armor I will have enough SP to max my side skills and get a new suit.

Were is this list sir.

It was a Blue Post last week. If you use the Dev Post finder, you should be able to locate it.

I think it was Eterne or FoxFour who made the post.

I have to say that I disagree with the majority of this. It has great ideas, but I have heard many ideas before it that make more sense.

Regarding armor plates and their penalties, just scale the armor bonus to be equal with the scale of the movement penalty. If that was overly confusing, think of it this way: 3% to 5% increase from basic to enhanced plates is a 1.6 multiplier (actually 1.6666666666666..... but this game always rounds down so I did too) so the 68 armor bonus from basic plates should be multiplied by 1.6 also, and then 5% to 10% is a 2 multiplier, so you multiply the enhanced bonus by 2, which ends up looking like:
Basic plates- 68 armor, 3% penalty
Enhanced plates- 108 armor, 5% penalty
Complex plates- 216 armor, 10% penalty

It gives the roughly same complex stats as you recommend, but keep the basic plates lower than what you recommended so you couldn't stack them and be a dual shield/armor god with low movement penalty.

Regarding increased armor repair module rates, I believe they are as they should be at the moment, you can stack them to great effect, but not god-like effect, if you think of it with these changes, a PRO Gallente assault could stack 4 complex repair modules, gain 25% more from the skill, gain 50% more from their racial that you mentioned, for a total of 40*(1.25)*(1.5)=75, which if you add in the possibility of a logi with a core repair tool, you are looking at + 105, which ends at 180 armor/second, which cancels out a significant percentage of weapon DPS, meaning it basically turns repair modules into resistance plates, stacking them to negate damage rather than keep you in the fight over prolonged periods of time.

Regarding shield extenders increasing hitboxes, I still believe the long ago recommended increase to scan profile would be a better fit, increasing hitboxes is a dramatic nerf, and though I could not confirm this for certain, would likely be a huge undertaking to code and implement it into the game.

Speaking of changes to armor, even though I don't believe it can fix all of our armor problems, I believe a Gallente assault racial mentioned here could help alleviate some issues.

Now that's just insanity tbh.

let them suffer as we did

Hmmph, your plate idea sounds better.

You are forgetting that this kind of speed only happens when you get hit.
After that, you are down to 25% of that rep speed, meaning 18.75.
And you have zero HP to go along with it, so you're just a meat bag.

Note, even if you have 10000000 reps, the dude has almost no HP, a standard AR with no skills or damage mods can kill him before the first rep cycle with ease.

Scan profile is not nearly as penalizing as speed.
So NOPE.
And if hitboxes are a dramatic nerf, then speed is a HUGE nerf, because it does the same thing (making you easier to hit) while also crippling your speed.

Scan profile is not nearly as penalizing as speed.
So NOPE.
And if hitboxes are a dramatic nerf, then speed is a HUGE nerf, because it does the same thing (making you easier to hit) while also crippling your speed.

To be fair, the only time you need resistance is when you are being hit, but beyond that point, as long as the Gallente racial were not a 50% bonus to rep rate, your rep modules seem like an acceptable increase. Like I said before, this stuff is my favorite idea for racial bonuses (rather obvious, since I wrote it) which means I do disagree with your Gallente racial, but fret not, as it does solve the issue of movement nerf to Gallente tanks, since movement penalties are reduced.

And also, I would rather be slow than have the enemy know my location every second of every moment, if the scan profile increase is significant, it would prove to be a greater disadvantage to the watered-down movement penalty that would result if my recommended Gallente assault buff was implemented.

A lot of hypothetical statements in this post, but I am basing my balance off of the game that would exist if the ideas from the thread I keep posting over and over again were added in.

And as long as the Gallente do not gain a 50% rep rate increase, the slowly decreasing repair rate is an unnecessary nerf to active tanking. A base 5 hp/s for Gallente is a good idea to me.

Did I mention I want more people to read this?

To be fair, the only time you need resistance is when you are being hit, but beyond that point, as long as the Gallente racial were not a 50% bonus to rep rate, your rep modules seem like an acceptable increase. Like I said before, this stuff is my favorite idea for racial bonuses (rather obvious, since I wrote it) which means I do disagree with your Gallente racial, but fret not, as it does solve the issue of movement nerf to Gallente tanks, since movement penalties are reduced.

And also, I would rather be slow than have the enemy know my location every second of every moment, if the scan profile increase is significant, it would prove to be a greater disadvantage to the watered-down movement penalty that would result if my recommended Gallente assault buff was implemented.

A lot of hypothetical statements in this post, but I am basing my balance off of the game that would exist if the ideas from the thread I keep posting over and over again were added in.

And as long as the Gallente do not gain a 50% rep rate increase, the slowly decreasing repair rate is an unnecessary nerf to active tanking. A base 5 hp/s for Gallente is a good idea to me.

Did I mention I want more people to read this?

Just give it up people. CCP will never give us Gallente's what we want. They love their precious shields and Caldari's far too much.

But, but, your a Caldari :I

My point was to solidify armor as a powerful brawler that needs logis to repair properly outside of battle.
Your idea just makes them shields 2.0.

I hardly think so, though you might not think it, people other than Gallente use armor, so the majority will still deal with the full speed penalty, and armor is still more or less the same in my recommendation, just without the fuss of pissing off shield tankers with massive shield extender nerfs and also pissing off Amarr/Minmatar armor tankers with massive Gallente-exclusive armor bonuses.

-Logi Bro

What I don't like is that you are solving armor for the Gallente assault suits but not for the other 5 armor suits. Your Gallente assault suit bonus should apply to ALL armor suits. Although it should be more like 10% PG/CPU reduction and 7% armor module, including repairers, efficacy per level.

Well, the Gallente are the only true armor tankers in the game, so they get the bonus. The Gal logi is not meant to be played as a tank,(even though people do) so it does not get a tank bonus, same goes for Gal scout, so it also doesn't get a tank bonus.

The Amarr are armor tankers only in the sense that they like a lot of EHP, they shouldn't be equipping armor plates due to the fact that they have such low base speed, so they don't get the armor bonus either.

The Gallente assault gets the bonus because as an assault suit, it is meant to be mobile, not a meandering tank like the heavy. Speaking of the heavy, the Gal heavy would likely get its own unique bonus to armor separate from the Gal assault bonus when the time comes that the Gallente heavy is added to the game.

Gallente Assault Bonus- 10% basic armor plate movement penalty reduction per level and 3% increased armor bonus from ferroscale and reactive plates per level
Amarr Assault Bonus- 5% reduction to energy weapon heat build-up per level
Gallente Logistics Bonus- 5% equipment PG/CPU reduction per level
Amarr Logistics Bonus- 5% repair module and reactive plate repair rate increase per level
Heavy Dropsuit Bonus- 2% hand-held weaponry damage received reduction per level
Amarr Sentinel Bonus- 2% dropsuit shield and armor increase per level
Amarr Commando Bonus- 5% decrease in light weapon CPU and PG use per level
Gallente Scout Bonus- 10% dropsuit and active scanner scan radius increase per level

Only bonuses that help armor are class exclusive. So the other suits are left out in the Dust.

If you had waited for my response to your first comment, you would notice I mentioned that the majority of those suits may be associated with armor, but are not meant for tanking, so they do not receive tank bonuses, if you look at the list after you remove the suits I mentioned, the only suit that is armor associated that does not receive a buff is the Amarr Assault Dropsuit, which as an assault suit is meant to be weaponized, hence the race-specific weaponry bonus.

Why wouldn't a Logistic suit tank? Thats like expecting a scout suit to repair, a Logistic suit needs high HP to compensate for low damage and mobility...

I have been playing a Logistic as a while and I have never had assault suits defend me while I am providing triage, I have to depend on myself for survival, and thus I ensure that my HP is as high as possible while mitigating as much speed penalty as I can.

I am talking about primary function, and a logi's primary function is team support, not self-support. Yes, a logi can better help his team if he has more survivability, but it is only an associated ability with their primary ability, so all the logi's get direct bonuses to their support, they already get more modules to increase their survival, they don't need small percentage bonuses to help themselves.

[
But all of these suits are armor suits not shield suits, they need armor bonuses so they don't get stomped on... the reason we need armor bonuses is so shields isn't better than armor, by you segregating fixes to certain suits your making it so shields and armor are balanced sometimes not all the time. At the same time you are nerfing the Gallente logistic suits, scout suits, Amarr commando, and amarr assault to ****. Because they are already weak now, imagine if shields is kept as good as it is now, some armor suits are made better and these suits are completely ignored.

How can I team support if I can't stay alive. I have 1 extra low slot and my EHP can only get about 40 higher than a Assault suit but thats only if I use all complex armor modules. So yes we do need small percentages...

I call bull, you don't have any tank buffs NOW and you are telling me my changes will nerf logi's by taking away tank bonuses that they already don't have. I specifically mentioned in my post that survivability is still important, but not a primary function, so logi's get support bonuses.

Also, you don't need 5 complex armor plates to get more EHP than an assault.

Just give it up people. CCP will never give us Gallente's what we want. They love their precious shields and Caldari's far too much.

Yes I do I have done HP comparisons on the Assault GK.0 and Logistics GK.0 starting from basic and up to Complex and only at complex do I surpass its EHP but only by a very tiny amount.

Yes it would, it would make them bad supports by making them easier to kill, tanking for a Logistic suit is a primary function, I ensure my survival before that of my team mates, not because I am selfish but because if my team mates dies and I do not, I can at least manage to kill whoever killed my enemy or at least secure the zone by SURVIVING and thus I can provide better support by reviving him and healing him; on the other hand this is a lot better than watching my team mate die, and then I die since I am weaker and slower, and thus whatever benefit I could of brought to change the outcome of the scenario is gone.

This is why a Logistic suits needs to be tankier than a assault suit, whose focus should be damage not survival. Thats like saying a rogue in a MMO has the HP of a tank and hits like a truck, of course in most MMOs Clerics are squishy but they can heal themselves or provide themselves buffs to ensure their survival but again and the team makes sure the Cleric does not die under no circumstance, so with this in mind a Logi suits needs higher survivability than a Assault suit.

Also Logis do not have any tank bonuses, but neither to the other armor suits so adding tank bonuses to some of the armor sutis but no the logis is basically a nerf, wouldn't adding the inverse to Logi suits be equivalent of a buff to the other suits?

EDIT: It will help if you give this a look as well, since this is where I got this quote from:
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=87752&find=unread


This is a post made by Cat Merc on this topic, but I wanted to add some ideas we brainstormed while conversing about it.

Cat Merc suggested that we could actually do the "unthinkable" - as some have called it - and have Shield Extenders tied to a player hitbox increase.

If you think about it, Armor tankers pay for their higher HP with their lower mobility in whatever fashion that's implemented.

With this concept, a Shield Tanker would have no penalties to their movement, but stacking 5 Extenders would still force the player to consider if they could compensate for a slightly larger hitbox.

In this way, setting your suit up for large amounts of HP, whether Shield or Armor, carries a penalty as far as how easy you are to hit, so that it's not just a flat buff with no downsides.

As far as Gallente suits are concerned, I proposed a 50% native bonus to the repair amount of Armor Repairers and Reactive Plates. This way even new Gallente players are able to tank their suits reasonably well with lower level gear, and they maintain the ability to keep equal footing with shield-tanked suits as they go up in meta levels on their gear.

To be clear, this is across both Basic AND Specialist suits, so that a Gallente player of any skill level has an equal ability to defend themselves against gear of a similar level.

EDIT: I had a further idea after I posted this thread.

Have Ferroscale Plates penalize the recharge delay on shields.

To clarify, they would effectively give penalties to the same areas that Shield Regulators buff.

Therefore, the lack of speed penalty is kept as a bonus to using them, without them becoming the perfect accessory to further buff Shield Extender stacking.

Now that's just insanity tbh.

EDIT: It will help if you give this a look as well, since this is where I got this quote from:
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=87752&find=unread


This is a post made by Cat Merc on this topic, but I wanted to add some ideas we brainstormed while conversing about it.

Cat Merc suggested that we could actually do the "unthinkable" - as some have called it - and have Shield Extenders tied to a player hitbox increase.

If you think about it, Armor tankers pay for their higher HP with their lower mobility in whatever fashion that's implemented.

With this concept, a Shield Tanker would have no penalties to their movement, but stacking 5 Extenders would still force the player to consider if they could compensate for a slightly larger hitbox.

In this way, setting your suit up for large amounts of HP, whether Shield or Armor, carries a penalty as far as how easy you are to hit, so that it's not just a flat buff with no downsides.

As far as Gallente suits are concerned, I proposed a 50% native bonus to the repair amount of Armor Repairers and Reactive Plates. This way even new Gallente players are able to tank their suits reasonably well with lower level gear, and they maintain the ability to keep equal footing with shield-tanked suits as they go up in meta levels on their gear.

To be clear, this is across both Basic AND Specialist suits, so that a Gallente player of any skill level has an equal ability to defend themselves against gear of a similar level.

EDIT: I had a further idea after I posted this thread.

Have Ferroscale Plates penalize the recharge delay on shields.

To clarify, they would effectively give penalties to the same areas that Shield Regulators buff.

Therefore, the lack of speed penalty is kept as a bonus to using them, without them becoming the perfect accessory to further buff Shield Extender stacking.

Agreeing with a Mobius thread......world is gonna end....gg lol
+1

and that extra hitbox will apply to scouts?, because that its not nearly balanced to scouts, think minma scouts, that depend only on shield tanking, considering that they are vey squishy right now, and when caldari scouts come this extra hitbox would only serve to further our extintion

Not really, you guys are extremely fast so you can dodge bullets, also hit box goes back to normal when your shields are down so you should invest in armor. Regardless scouts are UP now, so once they are buffed then this would be a fair implementation.

Honestly, the solution is releasing a Light Specialization designed to be used as a frontline combat suit like everyone wants to use Scout suits for right now.

Scouts are being used outside their role, which is leading to it being really damn hard to balance them.

The Breach and SpecOps and other Light Specs will hopefully address this.

In any case, most of the time you aren't trying to stack hardeners on your Scout suit for a heavy buffer-tank, anyway.

of course, i use a gallente scout, but minma scout-shotgun all use complex shield extenders

Man this takes armor tanking from slightly weaker to FAR stronger than shields. I mean, wow, this is too major of a buff.

Have you guys considered that armor is the only one capable of active regen? One nanohive, repair tool, and these reppers and good lord 200hp per/sec is achievable, screw speed when you are invincible. Shields ONLY have passive regen and you want reppers to equal that, why? Plus shields have a delay, none of the ACTIVE repair methods do, this delay is not something easily shrugged off.

Let's look at the disparities between shields vs armor:
1. Shields have no penalty: This needs fixed, hitbox increase is one route I'm fine with that. I prefer shield tanks lasting longer on minimap once spotted as it follows Eve Lore, ala BF3, but I digress.
2. Skills allow mods to be both in highs and lows for shields: I understand this, despite shields requiring 3 skill vs armor's 2 but are less vital, so I think regulators should go into high slots.
3. Hp values are too similar: I think giving shields an actual penalty solves this. Cal Logi upsets the whole balance here. Complex plates is 174% higher hp vs Extenders, I think armor may deserve a SLIGHT buff to maybe 130 hp... all other levels are pretty good.
4. Shields have higher passive regen: I think this is solved by the fact that armor has active regen why shields do not. More people need to run hives or repair tools. Reppers may need a slight buff but nothing major maybe 2/4/8. Could make reactive plates better as well like 1/2/4... maybe.

We should strive for balance and I think we are closer than we sometimes think. Let's not flop making armor the only viable route.

That's far from what's being suggested here. These changes are designed to make the two options equivalent, but different.

These suggestions (from the op) are far from making them equivalent...they make armor top dog. I'm trying to propose counter ideas to reach the same goal.

No it doesn't, the shield penalty only affects you when your shields are up, armor is always affected by speed, and we have the worst penalty of all, explosives since armor is the last line of defence tanking with it is very dangerous, and explosives has multipiers to ensure that we die. No matter how high my armor is, unless its 1500+ grenades will always two shot us, while shield suits can survive three shots + from any explosive with just average HP.

Unsure as to what you mean by "when shields are up." If shields have a penalty (larger hitbox or what have you) it should be all the time as well.

Admittedly, the disproportionate number of explosive weapons really throws things off. Grenades is a poor argument though, shields can get 2 shotted by grenades too and need 2400+ hp (!) to survive...1800+ to survive STD level. Shields are meant to resist explosives so it's really hard to balance armor around those, that's more of an issue with those weapons anyways.

To the poster above me, how does armor get a double negative from speed penalty... not trying to be a d*ick really just misunderstanding? Shields MUST get a penalty... I think we all can agree to this.

Armor only has crappy PASSIVE regen, shields may reach 100 hp/s at the VERY top (nonviable as its only energizers) and reach 50+ in the high end. Armor gets 30+ at the VERY top (again non viable) and 20+ in the high end. Seems off, but this does not take in delay. However, armor crushes shields for ACTIVE regen, easily reaching 70 hp p/s without another person. Max is 175+ hp/s tops and high end 110-175, this isn't even with reppers I have removed those. Compared with shields 0 I think the regen argument is moot.

Nope, you need 560 shields to survive two grenades (Easily obtainable by Minmatar and Caldari assault suits) and then whatever armor HP you want for the last grenade shot, therefore 3 shots. I could also use flaylocks, 3-4 shots to kill any armor suit, and 5-7 shots for shield suits and heavy suits. All at proto level of course.

Armor has these negatives

>No regen unless skilled into, getting regen removes a slot and therefore HP
>Regen that does not require a skill comes from repair tool but those are not common
>Speed penalty reduces tracking speed therefore aiming and hitting is harder
>Speed penalty reduces movement speed therefore you are more susceptible to weapons and explosives fire
>Does not give enough HP to compensate for the above 2.

Shields has these negatives

>None

Armor can only reach up to 30 HP/s on a Gallente logi. With a proto triage it can reach up to 100 HP/s but that is easily removed by having the enemy throw a flux grenade, and its only good if your going to be standing on the same spot, and in this game where gun fights are judged by who can move the most it makes them partially useless.

Also getting 30 HP/s on a armor suit removes your armor (nonviable as its only repairers). A shield suit gets 20-31.25 shield repair for free, with the only cost being a short delay and requires no SP investment.

Lets say my 500 HP armor suit is repairing at 20 hp/s, and we have a 500 HP shield suit repairing at 31.25 hp/s with a 6 second delay. At 6 seconds I have a 120 HP head start, at that time the shield start repairing and at 22 seconds the shield suit is done repairing, while the armor suit finishes repairing at 25 seconds.

You miss understand my point on grenades... One flux=1500 hp (at STD), ANY grenade or explosive weapon passed that will kill them. One cannot make the point that shield tankers "stack" armor because armor tankers can stack shields.

Shields have no ACTIVE regen, that is a big negative. Plus, 1/2 hp. Just because one cannot be bothered to carry a repair tool is not something that can be brought into the armor vs shield debate. Shields MUST have a negative, we agree on this.

My points on passives/active regen were meant to show the VERY top, I know they aren't completely viable.

I can get behind an increase to shield delay, really why is this lower, granted 6 secs is only achievable on Cal Logi.

Let me get this straight: One can expect shield tankers to flux an armor tankers triage nanohive but an armor tanker cannot carry flux grenades against shield tankers?

Also your regen theory assumes that a shield tanker goes to 0 and regen starts 6 seconds later and repairs for a full 22 secs. Armor tanker repairs for full 28 secs. What happens if a shield tanker is reset back to 0, the delay restarts, really changing the whole argument.

why does EVERYONE ignore amarr....

Where is the other grenade coming from if a flux was thrown? If thats the case even a flux grenade + grenade combo will two shot any suit but thats not the point, the point was shield suits can survive almost twice the amount of explosives, while there is no weapon out there that can kill them that fast, granted the flux argument but they are non lethal. Shield tanks stack armor for a small amount of extra HP but they have the choice of completely ignoring it, armor tanks stack shields because it is extremely essential to our survival.

Shields having no active regen is barely a negative. It is a hinderance but not enough to be comparable to armor penalties. Also the regen can be dropped by half with regulators, with 1 complex energizer is enough to blow armor repair, active or not, out of the water.

Caldari assault is 5 seconds...

Flux grenade on a shield tanker wipes the HP but after 20 seconds they are back at full health, flux grenade on an armor tankers triage wipes their shields, it takes them 30% longer to replenish their shields, and now their armor repair is gone.

If both are under fire then both armor and shield repair can be ignored because weapons do so much DPS that the armor repair is negligible, so out of fire shields has the advantage but under fire none have an advantage.

I'm not sure I like the idea of Armor Repair systems being subject to Flux grenades.

If you take into account what we've put forward so far as an idea for a kind of "role bonus" to Gallente suits, this Flux idea would defeat that entirely.

These suggestions (from the op) are far from making them equivalent...they make armor top dog. I'm trying to propose counter ideas to reach the same goal.

Wasn't an idea, what I said is what happens when a Armor suit is standing on a triage nanohive and it gets fluxxed, because the triage nanohive is supplying the bulk of armor repair he essentially loses his repair.

Everything I have written was a reply to this

and where will the heavy suit become of this...

because already u have exceeded the heavys base hp by alot.


but still players r already able to do that on a meduim frame so heavy suit really needs a buff in damage resistance and overall hp for its suits...

At least armor on dropsuits is getting new stuff. Shield vehicles have been forgotten about since Uprising was deployed.

CCP, time to focus on the I-Win button that is known as the Madrugar.

Edit: bring on the flaming...

heavy does not need bonuses to modules and stuff it needs more base armor and hp and overall damage resistance since an ar will melt a heavies shields and annihilate the armor

% bonuses to armor and shields is the same as higher base armor, except the better modules you put the more HP you get. Damage resistances do make sense but this is a long way from now to be implemented.

Where is the other grenade coming from if a flux was thrown? If thats the case even a flux grenade + grenade combo will two shot any suit but thats not the point, the point was shield suits can survive almost twice the amount of explosives, while there is no weapon out there that can kill them that fast, granted the flux argument but they are non lethal. Shield tanks stack armor for a small amount of extra HP but they have the choice of completely ignoring it, armor tanks stack shields because it is extremely essential to our survival.

Shields having no active regen is barely a negative. It is a hinderance but not enough to be comparable to armor penalties. Also the regen can be dropped by half with regulators, with 1 complex energizer is enough to blow armor repair, active or not, out of the water.

Caldari assault is 5 seconds...

Flux grenade on a shield tanker wipes the HP but after 20 seconds they are back at full health, flux grenade on an armor tankers triage wipes their shields, it takes them 30% longer to replenish their shields, and now their armor repair is gone.

If both are under fire then both armor and shield repair can be ignored because weapons do so much DPS that the armor repair is negligible, so out of fire shields has the advantage but under fire none have an advantage.

u cant hardly put any modules on mlt suits..

and a player shouldnt need all of those modules just to survive any ways...

plus even with all those modules its not gonna matter if ur enemy has stacked damage mods on..


thats y the heavy needs an increase in base hp.

it needs to tank those shots.

modules only make the suit cost more money.

not going to help much anyways as an armor repair module might be the only thing worth getting.

plus there rnt hardly any module slots on a mlt heavy suit.

i may get high kdr with free mlt gear in most of my battles. but from what ive seen the heavy is always out gunned and surrounded..

i see most of em hide around corners trying to set of there own kill zones since they cant really go any where and the only place they could defend effectively would be the supply depot....

Anything passed a flux will kill a shield tanker, literally ANYTHING...not so for Armor tankers. Shields only have base armor unless they are dual tanking which is a wholedifferent issue.

Why must armor tankers stack shields but not vice versa? Armor tankers have to fear explosives, shield tankers the flux, to be safe against both you must dual tank. I know you think there is greater proliferation of explosive weapons but flux is up there, everyone is running these now.

One cannot ignore active regen I know you think it s negligible but it is not. You cannot buff armor ignoring this fact. We could remove the repair tool and the triage hives then we could talk. Good armor tankers take advantage of these active methods.

2 pro energizers on a Cal Assault = 90. One triage hive=70 hp/s plus 2 reppers is an easy 82.5. The shield tanker have less hp because of the energizer's -6% plus the place of the 2 mods that could have been shield extenders. This isn't even bringing in repair tool or the delay.

Shield energizers really do F things up though, that is insane (why did they add these?). The loss in hp should be reduced to 2/3/5 but should apply to total shields not just base.

Cal Assault recharge delay is 5, depleted is 8. Logi is 4/6. I think you could make some small tweaks here.

A flux wipes a shield tankers entire hp buffer. You need 20+secs to repair WITHOUT TAKING FIRE. Good luck. Fluxing an armor tanker destroys his hive and takes his shields, but no big loss as you still have main hp buffer. No explosive weapon wipes entire hp buffer in one blast.

Let's say a fire fight lasts 10 secs. Armor reppers repair entire time (plus triage hives/tools but we'll ignore those) thats 150 hp. Seems like nothing but will stop a bullet. Shields under fire cannot recharge shields so 0 in the same period, that one extra bullet will kill them. Lucky if they can get a few seconds of repair. If shields ducking the fight alone they can return quicker, part of the reason armor is dbl hp. But with a logi repairing armor is much quicker to return.

Again I don't mind buffing reppers a bit, I'm thinking 2/4/8. Buff complex plates to 130. Give shields an actual penalty, and fix energizers. Fix some mods in low slots and move regulators over to high and I think we are REALLY close. Let's just not go overboard.

Wrong wrong aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand wrong.
First of all, Locus grenades outright kill any armor tanker, shield tankers get hit by a flux they have a chance to recharge.
You know how much damage a core locus grenade does to armor?
920+.

If your shields are down, it's not like you're dead.
Plus the damage from the locus grenade is more permenant, as it takes way longer to regain that HP.

Now, about your silly little rep tool and nanohive, rep tools require you to take a gun off the field, a gun does much more than a rep tool, even the prototype rep tool can't match the damage from a standard AR with no skills or damage mods.
And what happens when that logi dies?
You're ******.

Your 70hp/s nanohive doesn't restore ammo, at all.
For an assault this is extremely bad as this game barely gives us enough ammo to last 5 minutes.
In addition to that, they can be destroyed, specifically by grenades which WILL happen thanks to nade spam.
The Cal Logi 90hp/s stays that way, you can't destroy it.
Also, in the future there will be shield transfer modules, which act the same as rep tools.
The reason there aren't any yet is because it would be kind of a slap in the face to add them when armor is this weak.

The loss in shields should INCREASE in addition to applying to all of the shields.
These are extremely powerful, rechargers are pointless as long as the penalty is so small and only applies to base shields.

And yes there are explosive weapons that wipes the entire armor in one blast, or two if we're talking about the fast firing flaylock.

You are using edge cases for the reason why armor has a use.
It doesn't, these cases are few and far in between when they make themselves useful, 99% of the time shield tankers are better.

P.S
Shield recharge doesn't reset every bullet, the timer starts from your first bullet not your last.
So you can take fire all you want as long as you find cover in the last second of the timer.
And if you do take fire?
You get that 90hp and then the timer resets >_>

It's even crazier when you add shield regulators, which should be in high slots tbh.