of course, i use a gallente scout, but minma scout-shotgun all use complex shield extenders

Man this takes armor tanking from slightly weaker to FAR stronger than shields. I mean, wow, this is too major of a buff.

Have you guys considered that armor is the only one capable of active regen? One nanohive, repair tool, and these reppers and good lord 200hp per/sec is achievable, screw speed when you are invincible. Shields ONLY have passive regen and you want reppers to equal that, why? Plus shields have a delay, none of the ACTIVE repair methods do, this delay is not something easily shrugged off.

Let's look at the disparities between shields vs armor:
1. Shields have no penalty: This needs fixed, hitbox increase is one route I'm fine with that. I prefer shield tanks lasting longer on minimap once spotted as it follows Eve Lore, ala BF3, but I digress.
2. Skills allow mods to be both in highs and lows for shields: I understand this, despite shields requiring 3 skill vs armor's 2 but are less vital, so I think regulators should go into high slots.
3. Hp values are too similar: I think giving shields an actual penalty solves this. Cal Logi upsets the whole balance here. Complex plates is 174% higher hp vs Extenders, I think armor may deserve a SLIGHT buff to maybe 130 hp... all other levels are pretty good.
4. Shields have higher passive regen: I think this is solved by the fact that armor has active regen why shields do not. More people need to run hives or repair tools. Reppers may need a slight buff but nothing major maybe 2/4/8. Could make reactive plates better as well like 1/2/4... maybe.

We should strive for balance and I think we are closer than we sometimes think. Let's not flop making armor the only viable route.

That's far from what's being suggested here. These changes are designed to make the two options equivalent, but different.

These suggestions (from the op) are far from making them equivalent...they make armor top dog. I'm trying to propose counter ideas to reach the same goal.

No it doesn't, the shield penalty only affects you when your shields are up, armor is always affected by speed, and we have the worst penalty of all, explosives since armor is the last line of defence tanking with it is very dangerous, and explosives has multipiers to ensure that we die. No matter how high my armor is, unless its 1500+ grenades will always two shot us, while shield suits can survive three shots + from any explosive with just average HP.

Unsure as to what you mean by "when shields are up." If shields have a penalty (larger hitbox or what have you) it should be all the time as well.

Admittedly, the disproportionate number of explosive weapons really throws things off. Grenades is a poor argument though, shields can get 2 shotted by grenades too and need 2400+ hp (!) to survive...1800+ to survive STD level. Shields are meant to resist explosives so it's really hard to balance armor around those, that's more of an issue with those weapons anyways.

To the poster above me, how does armor get a double negative from speed penalty... not trying to be a d*ick really just misunderstanding? Shields MUST get a penalty... I think we all can agree to this.

Armor only has crappy PASSIVE regen, shields may reach 100 hp/s at the VERY top (nonviable as its only energizers) and reach 50+ in the high end. Armor gets 30+ at the VERY top (again non viable) and 20+ in the high end. Seems off, but this does not take in delay. However, armor crushes shields for ACTIVE regen, easily reaching 70 hp p/s without another person. Max is 175+ hp/s tops and high end 110-175, this isn't even with reppers I have removed those. Compared with shields 0 I think the regen argument is moot.

Nope, you need 560 shields to survive two grenades (Easily obtainable by Minmatar and Caldari assault suits) and then whatever armor HP you want for the last grenade shot, therefore 3 shots. I could also use flaylocks, 3-4 shots to kill any armor suit, and 5-7 shots for shield suits and heavy suits. All at proto level of course.

Armor has these negatives

>No regen unless skilled into, getting regen removes a slot and therefore HP
>Regen that does not require a skill comes from repair tool but those are not common
>Speed penalty reduces tracking speed therefore aiming and hitting is harder
>Speed penalty reduces movement speed therefore you are more susceptible to weapons and explosives fire
>Does not give enough HP to compensate for the above 2.

Shields has these negatives

>None

Armor can only reach up to 30 HP/s on a Gallente logi. With a proto triage it can reach up to 100 HP/s but that is easily removed by having the enemy throw a flux grenade, and its only good if your going to be standing on the same spot, and in this game where gun fights are judged by who can move the most it makes them partially useless.

Also getting 30 HP/s on a armor suit removes your armor (nonviable as its only repairers). A shield suit gets 20-31.25 shield repair for free, with the only cost being a short delay and requires no SP investment.

Lets say my 500 HP armor suit is repairing at 20 hp/s, and we have a 500 HP shield suit repairing at 31.25 hp/s with a 6 second delay. At 6 seconds I have a 120 HP head start, at that time the shield start repairing and at 22 seconds the shield suit is done repairing, while the armor suit finishes repairing at 25 seconds.

You miss understand my point on grenades... One flux=1500 hp (at STD), ANY grenade or explosive weapon passed that will kill them. One cannot make the point that shield tankers "stack" armor because armor tankers can stack shields.

Shields have no ACTIVE regen, that is a big negative. Plus, 1/2 hp. Just because one cannot be bothered to carry a repair tool is not something that can be brought into the armor vs shield debate. Shields MUST have a negative, we agree on this.

My points on passives/active regen were meant to show the VERY top, I know they aren't completely viable.

I can get behind an increase to shield delay, really why is this lower, granted 6 secs is only achievable on Cal Logi.

Let me get this straight: One can expect shield tankers to flux an armor tankers triage nanohive but an armor tanker cannot carry flux grenades against shield tankers?

Also your regen theory assumes that a shield tanker goes to 0 and regen starts 6 seconds later and repairs for a full 22 secs. Armor tanker repairs for full 28 secs. What happens if a shield tanker is reset back to 0, the delay restarts, really changing the whole argument.

why does EVERYONE ignore amarr....

Where is the other grenade coming from if a flux was thrown? If thats the case even a flux grenade + grenade combo will two shot any suit but thats not the point, the point was shield suits can survive almost twice the amount of explosives, while there is no weapon out there that can kill them that fast, granted the flux argument but they are non lethal. Shield tanks stack armor for a small amount of extra HP but they have the choice of completely ignoring it, armor tanks stack shields because it is extremely essential to our survival.

Shields having no active regen is barely a negative. It is a hinderance but not enough to be comparable to armor penalties. Also the regen can be dropped by half with regulators, with 1 complex energizer is enough to blow armor repair, active or not, out of the water.

Caldari assault is 5 seconds...

Flux grenade on a shield tanker wipes the HP but after 20 seconds they are back at full health, flux grenade on an armor tankers triage wipes their shields, it takes them 30% longer to replenish their shields, and now their armor repair is gone.

If both are under fire then both armor and shield repair can be ignored because weapons do so much DPS that the armor repair is negligible, so out of fire shields has the advantage but under fire none have an advantage.

I'm not sure I like the idea of Armor Repair systems being subject to Flux grenades.

If you take into account what we've put forward so far as an idea for a kind of "role bonus" to Gallente suits, this Flux idea would defeat that entirely.

These suggestions (from the op) are far from making them equivalent...they make armor top dog. I'm trying to propose counter ideas to reach the same goal.

Wasn't an idea, what I said is what happens when a Armor suit is standing on a triage nanohive and it gets fluxxed, because the triage nanohive is supplying the bulk of armor repair he essentially loses his repair.

Everything I have written was a reply to this

and where will the heavy suit become of this...

because already u have exceeded the heavys base hp by alot.


but still players r already able to do that on a meduim frame so heavy suit really needs a buff in damage resistance and overall hp for its suits...

At least armor on dropsuits is getting new stuff. Shield vehicles have been forgotten about since Uprising was deployed.

CCP, time to focus on the I-Win button that is known as the Madrugar.

Edit: bring on the flaming...

heavy does not need bonuses to modules and stuff it needs more base armor and hp and overall damage resistance since an ar will melt a heavies shields and annihilate the armor

% bonuses to armor and shields is the same as higher base armor, except the better modules you put the more HP you get. Damage resistances do make sense but this is a long way from now to be implemented.

Where is the other grenade coming from if a flux was thrown? If thats the case even a flux grenade + grenade combo will two shot any suit but thats not the point, the point was shield suits can survive almost twice the amount of explosives, while there is no weapon out there that can kill them that fast, granted the flux argument but they are non lethal. Shield tanks stack armor for a small amount of extra HP but they have the choice of completely ignoring it, armor tanks stack shields because it is extremely essential to our survival.

Shields having no active regen is barely a negative. It is a hinderance but not enough to be comparable to armor penalties. Also the regen can be dropped by half with regulators, with 1 complex energizer is enough to blow armor repair, active or not, out of the water.

Caldari assault is 5 seconds...

Flux grenade on a shield tanker wipes the HP but after 20 seconds they are back at full health, flux grenade on an armor tankers triage wipes their shields, it takes them 30% longer to replenish their shields, and now their armor repair is gone.

If both are under fire then both armor and shield repair can be ignored because weapons do so much DPS that the armor repair is negligible, so out of fire shields has the advantage but under fire none have an advantage.

u cant hardly put any modules on mlt suits..

and a player shouldnt need all of those modules just to survive any ways...

plus even with all those modules its not gonna matter if ur enemy has stacked damage mods on..


thats y the heavy needs an increase in base hp.

it needs to tank those shots.

modules only make the suit cost more money.

not going to help much anyways as an armor repair module might be the only thing worth getting.

plus there rnt hardly any module slots on a mlt heavy suit.

i may get high kdr with free mlt gear in most of my battles. but from what ive seen the heavy is always out gunned and surrounded..

i see most of em hide around corners trying to set of there own kill zones since they cant really go any where and the only place they could defend effectively would be the supply depot....

Anything passed a flux will kill a shield tanker, literally ANYTHING...not so for Armor tankers. Shields only have base armor unless they are dual tanking which is a wholedifferent issue.

Why must armor tankers stack shields but not vice versa? Armor tankers have to fear explosives, shield tankers the flux, to be safe against both you must dual tank. I know you think there is greater proliferation of explosive weapons but flux is up there, everyone is running these now.

One cannot ignore active regen I know you think it s negligible but it is not. You cannot buff armor ignoring this fact. We could remove the repair tool and the triage hives then we could talk. Good armor tankers take advantage of these active methods.

2 pro energizers on a Cal Assault = 90. One triage hive=70 hp/s plus 2 reppers is an easy 82.5. The shield tanker have less hp because of the energizer's -6% plus the place of the 2 mods that could have been shield extenders. This isn't even bringing in repair tool or the delay.

Shield energizers really do F things up though, that is insane (why did they add these?). The loss in hp should be reduced to 2/3/5 but should apply to total shields not just base.

Cal Assault recharge delay is 5, depleted is 8. Logi is 4/6. I think you could make some small tweaks here.

A flux wipes a shield tankers entire hp buffer. You need 20+secs to repair WITHOUT TAKING FIRE. Good luck. Fluxing an armor tanker destroys his hive and takes his shields, but no big loss as you still have main hp buffer. No explosive weapon wipes entire hp buffer in one blast.

Let's say a fire fight lasts 10 secs. Armor reppers repair entire time (plus triage hives/tools but we'll ignore those) thats 150 hp. Seems like nothing but will stop a bullet. Shields under fire cannot recharge shields so 0 in the same period, that one extra bullet will kill them. Lucky if they can get a few seconds of repair. If shields ducking the fight alone they can return quicker, part of the reason armor is dbl hp. But with a logi repairing armor is much quicker to return.

Again I don't mind buffing reppers a bit, I'm thinking 2/4/8. Buff complex plates to 130. Give shields an actual penalty, and fix energizers. Fix some mods in low slots and move regulators over to high and I think we are REALLY close. Let's just not go overboard.

Wrong wrong aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand wrong.
First of all, Locus grenades outright kill any armor tanker, shield tankers get hit by a flux they have a chance to recharge.
You know how much damage a core locus grenade does to armor?
920+.

If your shields are down, it's not like you're dead.
Plus the damage from the locus grenade is more permenant, as it takes way longer to regain that HP.

Now, about your silly little rep tool and nanohive, rep tools require you to take a gun off the field, a gun does much more than a rep tool, even the prototype rep tool can't match the damage from a standard AR with no skills or damage mods.
And what happens when that logi dies?
You're ******.

Your 70hp/s nanohive doesn't restore ammo, at all.
For an assault this is extremely bad as this game barely gives us enough ammo to last 5 minutes.
In addition to that, they can be destroyed, specifically by grenades which WILL happen thanks to nade spam.
The Cal Logi 90hp/s stays that way, you can't destroy it.
Also, in the future there will be shield transfer modules, which act the same as rep tools.
The reason there aren't any yet is because it would be kind of a slap in the face to add them when armor is this weak.

The loss in shields should INCREASE in addition to applying to all of the shields.
These are extremely powerful, rechargers are pointless as long as the penalty is so small and only applies to base shields.

And yes there are explosive weapons that wipes the entire armor in one blast, or two if we're talking about the fast firing flaylock.

You are using edge cases for the reason why armor has a use.
It doesn't, these cases are few and far in between when they make themselves useful, 99% of the time shield tankers are better.

P.S
Shield recharge doesn't reset every bullet, the timer starts from your first bullet not your last.
So you can take fire all you want as long as you find cover in the last second of the timer.
And if you do take fire?
You get that 90hp and then the timer resets >_>

It's even crazier when you add shield regulators, which should be in high slots tbh.