DUST Search - Shield-Armor Balance Proposal

BL4CKST4R wrote:

Yes I do I have done HP comparisons on the Assault GK.0 and Logistics GK.0 starting from basic and up to Complex and only at complex do I surpass its EHP but only by a very tiny amount.

Yes it would, it would make them bad supports by making them easier to kill, tanking for a Logistic suit is a primary function, I ensure my survival before that of my team mates, not because I am selfish but because if my team mates dies and I do not, I can at least manage to kill whoever killed my enemy or at least secure the zone by SURVIVING and thus I can provide better support by reviving him and healing him; on the other hand this is a lot better than watching my team mate die, and then I die since I am weaker and slower, and thus whatever benefit I could of brought to change the outcome of the scenario is gone.

This is why a Logistic suits needs to be tankier than a assault suit, whose focus should be damage not survival. Thats like saying a rogue in a MMO has the HP of a tank and hits like a truck, of course in most MMOs Clerics are squishy but they can heal themselves or provide themselves buffs to ensure their survival but again and the team makes sure the Cleric does not die under no circumstance, so with this in mind a Logi suits needs higher survivability than a Assault suit.

Also Logis do not have any tank bonuses, but neither to the other armor suits so adding tank bonuses to some of the armor sutis but no the logis is basically a nerf, wouldn't adding the inverse to Logi suits be equivalent of a buff to the other suits?


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Logi Bro Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 1618	Posted - 2013.07.08 00:32:00 - [1] - Quote I have to say that I disagree with the majority of this. It has great ideas, but I have heard many ideas before it that make more sense. Regarding armor plates and their penalties, just scale the armor bonus to be equal with the scale of the movement penalty. If that was overly confusing, think of it this way: 3% to 5% increase from basic to enhanced plates is a 1.6 multiplier (actually 1.6666666666666..... but this game always rounds down so I did too) so the 68 armor bonus from basic plates should be multiplied by 1.6 also, and then 5% to 10% is a 2 multiplier, so you multiply the enhanced bonus by 2, which ends up looking like: Basic plates- 68 armor, 3% penalty Enhanced plates- 108 armor, 5% penalty Complex plates- 216 armor, 10% penalty It gives the roughly same complex stats as you recommend, but keep the basic plates lower than what you recommended so you couldn't stack them and be a dual shield/armor god with low movement penalty. Regarding increased armor repair module rates, I believe they are as they should be at the moment, you can stack them to great effect, but not god-like effect, if you think of it with these changes, a PRO Gallente assault could stack 4 complex repair modules, gain 25% more from the skill, gain 50% more from their racial that you mentioned, for a total of 40(1.25)(1.5)=75, which if you add in the possibility of a logi with a core repair tool, you are looking at + 105, which ends at 180 armor/second, which cancels out a significant percentage of weapon DPS, meaning it basically turns repair modules into resistance plates, stacking them to negate damage rather than keep you in the fight over prolonged periods of time. Regarding shield extenders increasing hitboxes, I still believe the long ago recommended increase to scan profile would be a better fit, increasing hitboxes is a dramatic nerf, and though I could not confirm this for certain, would likely be a huge undertaking to code and implement it into the game. Speaking of changes to armor, even though I don't believe it can fix all of our armor problems, I believe a Gallente assault racial mentioned here could help alleviate some issues.
Logi Bro Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 1629	Posted - 2013.07.08 01:01:00 - [2] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Logi Bro wrote: Lots of blah blah blah I really want people to read this Hmmph, your plate idea sounds better. You are forgetting that this kind of speed only happens when you get hit. After that, you are down to 25% of that rep speed, meaning 18.75. And you have zero HP to go along with it, so you're just a meat bag. Note, even if you have 10000000 reps, the dude has almost no HP, a standard AR with no skills or damage mods can kill him before the first rep cycle with ease. Scan profile is not nearly as penalizing as speed. So NOPE. And if hitboxes are a dramatic nerf, then speed is a HUGE nerf, because it does the same thing (making you easier to hit) while also crippling your speed. To be fair, the only time you need resistance is when you are being hit, but beyond that point, as long as the Gallente racial were not a 50% bonus to rep rate, your rep modules seem like an acceptable increase. Like I said before, this stuff is my favorite idea for racial bonuses (rather obvious, since I wrote it) which means I do disagree with your Gallente racial, but fret not, as it does solve the issue of movement nerf to Gallente tanks, since movement penalties are reduced. And also, I would rather be slow than have the enemy know my location every second of every moment, if the scan profile increase is significant, it would prove to be a greater disadvantage to the watered-down movement penalty that would result if my recommended Gallente assault buff was implemented. A lot of hypothetical statements in this post, but I am basing my balance off of the game that would exist if the ideas from the thread I keep posting over and over again were added in. And as long as the Gallente do not gain a 50% rep rate increase, the slowly decreasing repair rate is an unnecessary nerf to active tanking. A base 5 hp/s for Gallente is a good idea to me. Did I mention I want more people to read this?
Logi Bro Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 1631	Posted - 2013.07.08 01:12:00 - [3] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Logi Bro wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Logi Bro wrote: Lots of blah blah blah I really want people to read this Hmmph, your plate idea sounds better. You are forgetting that this kind of speed only happens when you get hit. After that, you are down to 25% of that rep speed, meaning 18.75. And you have zero HP to go along with it, so you're just a meat bag. Note, even if you have 10000000 reps, the dude has almost no HP, a standard AR with no skills or damage mods can kill him before the first rep cycle with ease. Scan profile is not nearly as penalizing as speed. So NOPE. And if hitboxes are a dramatic nerf, then speed is a HUGE nerf, because it does the same thing (making you easier to hit) while also crippling your speed. Did I mention I want more people to read this? My point was to solidify armor as a powerful brawler that needs logis to repair properly outside of battle. Your idea just makes them shields 2.0. I hardly think so, though you might not think it, people other than Gallente use armor, so the majority will still deal with the full speed penalty, and armor is still more or less the same in my recommendation, just without the fuss of pissing off shield tankers with massive shield extender nerfs and also pissing off Amarr/Minmatar armor tankers with massive Gallente-exclusive armor bonuses. -Logi Bro
Logi Bro Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 1631	Posted - 2013.07.08 01:19:00 - [4] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: What I don't like is that you are solving armor for the Gallente assault suits but not for the other 5 armor suits. Your Gallente assault suit bonus should apply to ALL armor suits. Although it should be more like 10% PG/CPU reduction and 7% armor module, including repairers, efficacy per level. Well, the Gallente are the only true armor tankers in the game, so they get the bonus. The Gal logi is not meant to be played as a tank,(even though people do) so it does not get a tank bonus, same goes for Gal scout, so it also doesn't get a tank bonus. The Amarr are armor tankers only in the sense that they like a lot of EHP, they shouldn't be equipping armor plates due to the fact that they have such low base speed, so they don't get the armor bonus either. The Gallente assault gets the bonus because as an assault suit, it is meant to be mobile, not a meandering tank like the heavy. Speaking of the heavy, the Gal heavy would likely get its own unique bonus to armor separate from the Gal assault bonus when the time comes that the Gallente heavy is added to the game.
Logi Bro Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 1631	Posted - 2013.07.08 01:24:00 - [5] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: Gallente Assault Bonus- 10% basic armor plate movement penalty reduction per level and 3% increased armor bonus from ferroscale and reactive plates per level Amarr Assault Bonus- 5% reduction to energy weapon heat build-up per level Gallente Logistics Bonus- 5% equipment PG/CPU reduction per level Amarr Logistics Bonus- 5% repair module and reactive plate repair rate increase per level Heavy Dropsuit Bonus- 2% hand-held weaponry damage received reduction per level Amarr Sentinel Bonus- 2% dropsuit shield and armor increase per level Amarr Commando Bonus- 5% decrease in light weapon CPU and PG use per level Gallente Scout Bonus- 10% dropsuit and active scanner scan radius increase per level Only bonuses that help armor are class exclusive. So the other suits are left out in the Dust. If you had waited for my response to your first comment, you would notice I mentioned that the majority of those suits may be associated with armor, but are not meant for tanking, so they do not receive tank bonuses, if you look at the list after you remove the suits I mentioned, the only suit that is armor associated that does not receive a buff is the Amarr Assault Dropsuit, which as an assault suit is meant to be weaponized, hence the race-specific weaponry bonus.
Logi Bro Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 1631	Posted - 2013.07.08 01:32:00 - [6] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: Why wouldn't a Logistic suit tank? Thats like expecting a scout suit to repair, a Logistic suit needs high HP to compensate for low damage and mobility... I have been playing a Logistic as a while and I have never had assault suits defend me while I am providing triage, I have to depend on myself for survival, and thus I ensure that my HP is as high as possible while mitigating as much speed penalty as I can. I am talking about primary function, and a logi's primary function is team support, not self-support. Yes, a logi can better help his team if he has more survivability, but it is only an associated ability with their primary ability, so all the logi's get direct bonuses to their support, they already get more modules to increase their survival, they don't need small percentage bonuses to help themselves.
Logi Bro Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 1631	Posted - 2013.07.08 01:47:00 - [7] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: [ But all of these suits are armor suits not shield suits, they need armor bonuses so they don't get stomped on... the reason we need armor bonuses is so shields isn't better than armor, by you segregating fixes to certain suits your making it so shields and armor are balanced sometimes not all the time. At the same time you are nerfing the Gallente logistic suits, scout suits, Amarr commando, and amarr assault to ****. Because they are already weak now, imagine if shields is kept as good as it is now, some armor suits are made better and these suits are completely ignored. Just so you know, the Gallente Logi, Gallente Scout, and Amarr Assault Dropsuits bonuses are exactly the same on my thread as in the game, so they aren't being nerfed at all, actually, which pretty much answers everything you mentioned in that post. Nothing is nerfed as far as my thread is concerned, only buffs, and those buffs effect what I was talking about in my last post: primary function. Assaults kill on the move so they get weapon buffs/mobility buffs, Heavies tank so they get tank buff, Scouts scout so they get TACNET bonuses, and Logi's support so they get equipment bonuses.(Due to much demand by other people, the Amarr Logi does not have an equipment bonus, but that's the only one.)
Logi Bro Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 1633	Posted - 2013.07.08 01:51:00 - [8] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: Logi Bro wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: Why wouldn't a Logistic suit tank? Thats like expecting a scout suit to repair, a Logistic suit needs high HP to compensate for low damage and mobility... I have been playing a Logistic as a while and I have never had assault suits defend me while I am providing triage, I have to depend on myself for survival, and thus I ensure that my HP is as high as possible while mitigating as much speed penalty as I can. I am talking about primary function, and a logi's primary function is team support, not self-support. Yes, a logi can better help his team if he has more survivability, but it is only an associated ability with their primary ability, so all the logi's get direct bonuses to their support, they already get more modules to increase their survival, they don't need small percentage bonuses to help themselves. How can I team support if I can't stay alive. I have 1 extra low slot and my EHP can only get about 40 higher than a Assault suit but thats only if I use all complex armor modules. So yes we do need small percentages... I call bull, you don't have any tank buffs NOW and you are telling me my changes will nerf logi's by taking away tank bonuses that they already don't have. I specifically mentioned in my post that survivability is still important, but not a primary function, so logi's get support bonuses. Also, you don't need 5 complex armor plates to get more EHP than an assault.
Logi Bro Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 1650	Posted - 2013.07.08 02:45:00 - [9] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: Yes I do I have done HP comparisons on the Assault GK.0 and Logistics GK.0 starting from basic and up to Complex and only at complex do I surpass its EHP but only by a very tiny amount. Yes it would, it would make them bad supports by making them easier to kill, tanking for a Logistic suit is a primary function, I ensure my survival before that of my team mates, not because I am selfish but because if my team mates dies and I do not, I can at least manage to kill whoever killed my enemy or at least secure the zone by SURVIVING and thus I can provide better support by reviving him and healing him; on the other hand this is a lot better than watching my team mate die, and then I die since I am weaker and slower, and thus whatever benefit I could of brought to change the outcome of the scenario is gone. This is why a Logistic suits needs to be tankier than a assault suit, whose focus should be damage not survival. Thats like saying a rogue in a MMO has the HP of a tank and hits like a truck, of course in most MMOs Clerics are squishy but they can heal themselves or provide themselves buffs to ensure their survival but again and the team makes sure the Cleric does not die under no circumstance, so with this in mind a Logi suits needs higher survivability than a Assault suit. Also Logis do not have any tank bonuses, but neither to the other armor suits so adding tank bonuses to some of the armor sutis but no the logis is basically a nerf, wouldn't adding the inverse to Logi suits be equivalent of a buff to the other suits? So what you are telling me is that you have to stack armor plates to have more health than an assault with stacked armor plates. Look, I am not sure you understand the idea behind armor plates. They give movement penalties, so nobody stacks 4 or 5 armor plates, because heavies would run circles around them. The objective of being logistics favors speed just as much as survival, so by stacking all those complex plates you are useless to you team-mates because you can't keep up with them. You need to stop lecturing me on being a logi like I have never played the role before, I was a logi before there were indicators to revive people, I have plenty experience. The role of logistics is support, not survival. Survival is not actually the secondary role of logistics, either. The secondary role of logistics is sustain. Let me explain the difference. Survival is the ability to soak up as much damage as possible before death, so it is the primary role of heavies and the secondary role of assaults. Sustain is the ability to live as long as possible, meaning escape when being attacked with overwhelming force and regenerating outside of combat. You aren't there to kill the enemy if he kills your friend, you are there to make your friend stronger and not let him die in the first place. As far as you mentioning survival to assault suits, like I said it is the secondary role of assault, so it is reasonable to give them such a bonus, and it does not by any means nerf logistics, it just makes it so they are no longer the first choice for front-line combat, as is a huge imbalance with the game.