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[Feedback] Some Commando vs. Assault math

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Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1144	Posted - 2013.07.07 08:21:00 - [1] - Quote Hey, I found this interesting when I was looking at dropsuit fittings. Let's say you want to make a STD-level suit to mix it up on the field, one with a Commando, one with Caldari Assault. Now, the Caldari Assault already has the advantage of Fifty gazillion BPOs suits they've released for it instead of any other race. Let's pretend you have to pay for everything though. The Commando can benefit from those sweet passive skills more though, amiright?! So, at Rank of 4 of both Shield and Armor upgrades, he/she has 300 shields and 300 armor. Caldari Assault Suit = 3000 ISK Commando = 8000 ISK (obviously no race selection option here) The Commando has no module slots. The Caldari has 4. Let's use those to match the HP on the cheap. If you have a militia shield extender BPO to use with your Raven/Dren/Covenant/Dragonfly/every-other-assault-suit-released-ever, you can basically fill those high slots for free anyway. I put Shield Extenders and Plates at rank 1, and used an Aurum Enhanced plate. This was mostly so that the passives inherent in those skills would stay low in impact at rank 1. 2x Militia Shield Extender = 800 ISK 1x Basic Armor Plate = 900 ISK 1x Enhanced Armor Plate = 2415 ISK Grand totals: Caldari Suit: 7115 Commando: 8000 The Caldari : 297 Shields, 299 Armor vs. Commando 300 Shields, 300 Armor It should be noted that if the Caldari has Rank 3 in Plates to equip those Enhanced plates, they'll have 6 more hp, ergo, higher than the Commando by the same margin that the Commando is higher than them in this situation. There's more to it than that of course, how do the suits compare? Speed: Caldari is faster even with two plates by a large margin 4.64 m/s > 3.95 m/s Ouch... tough break. The cheaper suit is faster because that Commando suit is built to last, right? Shield Recharge: Caldari is higher by a whopping 250%, 25 recharge vs. 10 recharge. Shield Delay: Caldari is faster, 5s & 8s vs. 7s & 10s for Commando. The Commando is a full 2s slower on both. Well, that sucks hard, but the Caldari are the "shield" people. I mean, you can't expect other races to protect themselves. Grenade Slot: Caldari has one, Commando does not. How sad. Stamina: the same, their run is the same duration. Commando has slightly better Stamina regen 17 vs. 15 Even with the extra stamina regen, the huge speed gap means the caldari could backpedal away from you. Equipment Slot: Both have a single one. Profile: Heavy style, the Commando has the worst of it in every respect Melee: Commando's dmg is much higher. Good luck catching people that can backpedal faster than you sprint. Weapon Slots: Commando has two Light Weapons, Assault has Light and Sidearm The most useful element. It's the difference between the Assault and the Commando both carrying Swarm Launchers, but the assault being forced to use a Core Flaylock or Assault SMG instead of an AR.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1144	Posted - 2013.07.07 08:22:00 - [2] - Quote To sum up: In comparing with the STD Caldari, I was able to demonstrate a few things: You can get the same suit HP (or more) and still spend less ISK. You pay MORE for a suit that you'll die in more. The suit is more of a deathtrap in two ways. The most obvious is the speed. Inability to manuever, get away from sniper fire, be evasive when shot at, etc. are a much larger issue when you're as slow as the Commando. The second is the shield recharge. You'll wait longer and recover less per-tick than your assault brothers. So, more likely to be damaged, slower to recover, and the hp is the same as faster moving and recovering suits. You pay extra for this privilege. This is not just true of the ISK value of the suit, but SP cost. Heavy suits require more investment in dropsuit command than medium (Rank 3 instead of Rank 1). You don't get a grenade... for whatever reason. The equipment slot isn't a defining factor here. Basically, the sacrifices are too large for the benefit of another light weapon. It would only be useful if you're not in a firefight. If you are in a firefight, you're not necessarily equipped to take more punishment than an assault. They may have higher hp, and you'll be slower. Of course, you might think this is specific to STD level (when they have no slots). At PRO, the Commando has THREE slots. Guess how many more slots the Caldari gets when it jumps from STD to PRO? THREE. From STD to PRO, they both get 2 more high and 1 more low. Also, my goal in demonstrating "matching" the hp, was that you could do it cheaper than the cost of the suit. You can just easily be an assault that has a considerable advantage over a commando (aside from speed and shield regen which the Commando literally can't match ever) if you're not pinching ISK. Price jump is also interesting. Caldari PRO = 57k ISK, Commando PRO = 94k ISK. Talk about a mark-up for crap. This is completely separate from other issues like the lack of slots nixing the Commando's ability to get optimum performance out of the equipment it does have. For example, the calling card (two light weapons) is interesting, but the same weapon wielded by most any other suit at STD could have a damage mod (or two). It would make an especially large difference in weapons that would be suited to a role which can't seem to function well in close-combat (because of speed) like a sniper rifle or swarm launcher. So, the assault suits can make better use out of a given weapon and protect themselves better at the same time. In short, the Commando is ill-conceived, a death trap, over-priced in SP/ISK, and needs extensive reworking.
Aero Yassavi PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 158	Posted - 2013.07.07 08:41:00 - [3] - Quote You are underestimating how useful two light weapons are. However, CCP is overestimating how useful two light weapons are.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1145	Posted - 2013.07.07 08:49:00 - [4] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: You are underestimating how useful two light weapons are. However, CCP is overestimating how useful two light weapons are. I think they have worlds of possibilities. However, it doesn't matter what those possibilities might be if you're as slow as a heavy, have less hp than a assault, and can't use damage mods. It's not impossible to do something with it, but just because it's possible to kill a bear with a fork doesn't make it a good idea.
Nikea Nei Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 35	Posted - 2013.07.07 10:15:00 - [5] - Quote I can verify that the suit "brings the suck".
FakeMyDeath Foxhound Corporation General Tso's Alliance 32	Posted - 2013.07.07 11:15:00 - [6] - Quote when they said "commando" they meant the player playing the dropsuit i believe
Bullets2yaface Red Star. EoN. 21	Posted - 2013.07.07 11:33:00 - [7] - Quote wtf u cant say the commando has no modules then say the caldari has 4 as if they're comparable ONLY THE FIRST COMMANDO HAS NO MODULES proto caldari gets 4 u have no idea dude. That said commando suits still are nothing a gimmick they are so useless its not funny ooo i can do av but i cant carry grenades how ******** is that.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1152	Posted - 2013.07.07 11:52:00 - [8] - Quote Bullets2yaface wrote: wtf u cant say the commando has no modules then say the caldari has 4 as if they're comparable ONLY THE FIRST COMMANDO HAS NO MODULES proto caldari gets 4 u have no idea dude. If you're gona compare something make sure they're actually comparable. That said commando suits still are nothing a gimmick they are so useless its not funny ooo i can do av but i cant carry grenades how ****** is that. should've made regular heavies able to carry an hmg and a light instead I'm not sure if you're trolling or agreeing with me... but let me try to answer you. The comparison is between "STANDARD" suits. STD Commando is no modules, while STD Caldari Assault has 4 modules (2 high, 2 low). You can see exactly what I put in the 4 slots because I list it. Part of the point of that part of my post is explaining that you can fill those 4 slots to match the HP of the commando, and the Commando suit still costs more than the Assault + 4 modules. So, when you say, Quote: "u cant say the commando has no modules then say the caldari has 4 as if they're comparable" , I have to point out that those are what the stats of the two suits are at STD? However, I'd agree that they aren't comparable. The Caldari is much cheaper and better. As for, Quote: "proto caldari gets 4 u have no idea dude." Actually, a proto Caldari has 7 slots, 4 high and 3 low. This is pointed out as well when I say that both STD suits gain exactly 2 high slots and 1 low slot going from STD to PRO. Finally, when you said Quote:** "If you're gona compare something make sure they're actually comparable." Well, CCP will ultimately decide if the suits can be considered comparable. Right now it's no contest.
Kelrie Nae'bre not in a corporation 45	Posted - 2013.07.08 06:28:00 - [9] - Quote The role's a gimmick. Unless you're sniping, you're basically a weaker assault with the speed of a heavy. It's a joke. The other racial heavy commandos might work about better or something, in which case it'll suck just that much more for the sad bastards that invested in the Amarr version.
Krom Ganesh Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 140	Posted - 2013.07.08 07:02:00 - [10] - Quote I have never played as a commando so take everything I say with a grain of salt. One of the problems with the Commando as far as I can tell is that it has no clearly defined purpose on the battlefield. Assaults are your basic infantry Logis are your support/medics Scouts are your fast and light infiltrators/cqcers Sentinels are your point defense And Commandos are your..... What? Without a clear purpose, there is nothing to gear the suit's stats toward. The best use I can think of for it is to be a versatile counter suit. If you need to take down vehicles in the middle of combat while still being useful in that combat, Commando may have a use for you. If you need to take out a pesky sniper while in the middle of combat while again still being useful in that combat, Commando may have a use for you. The problem is, it's stats don't seem to reflect these purposes. When will a heavy ever need to melee someone? In the time it takes a heavy to land a hit on a medium or light suit, they could have reloaded and blown them away. As you noted, they have fairly low eHP for a heavy suit, which is bad because one of the best uses I can tell for this suits involves a stare down with a tank. The Commando bonus is a 25% reduction to reload speeds at lvl5. Helpful? Yes. But is it what they need for taking on snipers and vehicles? Their eHP should be enough to tank snipers (unless the sniper is good enough to score multiple headshots) so instead they need a boost to their performance against vehicles. Since they are slow and have trouble getting out of the tanks fire they would benefit most from something that reduces the amount of time they have to fight the tank. How about bonus damage to vehicles?

Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1257	Posted - 2013.07.10 03:38:00 - [11] - Quote I would've expected them to have much higher speed considering the hit they took the HP and Slots. They're running a very stripped-down suit compared to.... well, every other suit in the game (they're the only one with a no-slot suit, and their no-slot suit also can't carry grenades...). Yet, even while stripped down with respect to slots and lacking most of the shields/armor of a heavy, they're super slow. Seems odd.
Meeko Fent Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 229	Posted - 2013.07.10 05:09:00 - [12] - Quote Give them a slight health buff. 50-75 HP per layer (shield and armor) That way you can see its heavy ancestry, but not enough so it isn't a sentinel with two light weapons.
djcynex SlaughterMoose 1	Posted - 2013.07.10 05:22:00 - [13] - Quote Ive been playing the commando since it came out , as i was preferable to heavy in the past. I can note that yeah, the current structure of the commando, is a bit off balance. I would have expected it to take more of a pounding, more similar to a heavy at least. look at it this way, If i run an advanced heavy, load up 2 damage mods, and 2 speed boosts, Im just as fast, and do way more damage, than if i were to use the advanced commando, with damage mods, and speed boosts, and it costs me less to run the kit. mind you, the 2 light weapons IS a bit of a bonus, but when you get run down because of being poorly dealth with health, its rare you get to actually utilize both, especially in the heat of battle. The commando suit should at least be somewhere between where it is now, and between the heavy. a commando can get easily run down by any caldari assault because they not only have the same hp when you spec it out right, but they can bounce around you while you try to keep up. If its going to be a more sluggish suit, it should have more hp.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1260	Posted - 2013.07.10 07:48:00 - [14] - Quote There's more than one way to fix it, but combining the sluggish speed with lower hp and no modules/grenades (and giving them a passive that's module-focused while they have the fewest slots at PRO of any suit in the game)... just... why?
FakeMyDeath Foxhound Corporation General Tso's Alliance 35	Posted - 2013.07.10 08:14:00 - [15] - Quote CCP FIX THE COMMANDO cause you act like noobs in your own game.
Cyrille Fodeux Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 22	Posted - 2013.07.10 08:49:00 - [16] - Quote You also forgot that the Assault can fit an ADV weapon if necessary without much backdraws. If you do this on a Commando you have to either sacrifice your Equipment or you choose a Sidearm as second weapon. There's more here in my feedback thread: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1037321 Cyrille
RoundEy3 Metal Mind Industries 199	Posted - 2013.07.10 13:41:00 - [17] - Quote I would like to someday see this suit concept be worth something. Right now it's neat to think about how it could be decent, but nothing more. It a needs grenade slot, no doubt EDIT: What kind of commando doesn't carry grenades and explosives in the first place!? wth.. It needs a buff to base armor and shields, so that on a proto to proto comparrison with modules fitted it falls somewhere inbetween an assault and a heavy on the total hit points value.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1263	Posted - 2013.07.10 14:07:00 - [18] - Quote RoundEy3 wrote: I would like to someday see this suit concept be worth something. Right now it's neat to think about how it could be decent, but nothing more. It a needs grenade slot, no doubt EDIT: What kind of commando doesn't carry grenades and explosives in the first place!? wth.. It needs a buff to base armor and shields, so that on a proto to proto comparrison with modules fitted it falls somewhere inbetween an assault and a heavy on the total hit points value. It needs "something". It's just got too many hits against it right now: low speed, lowest recharge (lower than regular Heavies, etc.), least modules, lower possible HP than Heavies OR Logis OR Assaults (Even scouts could have more if they used all their slots I think), and so on. It's just too crippled as-is. It makes a subpar front-line because of speed/hp, subpar distance-fighter without the slots, and low general flexibility without the slots.
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. League of Infamy 1917	Posted - 2013.07.10 14:53:00 - [19] - Quote Bear in mind youre comparing Caldari, which are designed for quick skirmish and long range engagement versus the Amarr, which are deigned for balance in all areas at the cost of speed. The numbers would be a lot more interesting and viable if it were a Caldari Commando or an Amarr Assault. Time reveals all, butonly to those with the patience to committo it.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1270	Posted - 2013.07.10 15:49:00 - [20] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Bear in mind youre comparing Caldari, which are designed for quick skirmish and long range engagement versus the Amarr, which are deigned for balance in all areas at the cost of speed. The numbers would be a lot more interesting and viable if it were a Caldari Commando or an Amarr Assault. Time reveals all, butonly to those with the patience to committo it. Part of the reason I used a Caldari Assault is because it's the most-released suit STD BPO we have. Players have the option of Dragonfly, Covenant, Dren, Raven, etc. for their Caldari STD assault suit needs. Thus, for a lot of players it already present a very cheap option in the "STD" bracket, and in fact I was able to make these comparisons putting together a suit on the same account as the Commando since I had the BPO on-hand. I also had a militia shield extender BPO, making that item effectively free, so the fitting is even cheaper than I suggested on my end. So, even fully skilled into Commando (rank 5), the Caldari STD suit still appears a superior option even without any skills put towards it. The Amarr Assault is no slouch either though. It has the same set of slots available at STD level as the Commando does at PRO (2H, 1L) and higher base EHP than the Caldari. The caveat there is that while the Amarr has higher base hp, it's only a 30hp difference, and the Caldari is weighted towards shields (in which we have modules with lower hp totals to begin with). Ergo, it's harder to easily match high shield totals with singular modules because shield modules give less hp on average. The Amarr has fewer slots to try to match anything anyhow (as shorting the Amarr on slots for questionable hp gains and speed penalties is a running theme). So, while the Caldari can apparently easily match the Commando with a relatively low-level set of mods (with respect to hp), the Amarr has issues match the shields with anything but much more expensive mods. The Amarr can still do so, it just winds up requiring higher skill levels and more ISK. Rather than suggest the Commando is powerful though, this suggests to me that the speed and slot penalties the Amarr get in exchange for their HP boosts aren't particularly balanced at any level. The Amarr Assault's 30 hp advantage over Gall/Cald assaults is completely washed away by the module slots they get in comparison. This is born out by the fast that a single enhanced shield module or basic armor plates easily compensates for that "advantage" without giving the same speed penalty.

Kelrie Nae'bre not in a corporation 57	Posted - 2013.07.11 12:59:00 - [21] - Quote Zeylon Rho wrote: The caveat there is that while the Amarr has higher base hp, it's only a 30hp difference, and the Caldari is weighted towards shields (in which we have modules with lower hp totals to begin with). Ergo, it's harder to easily match high shield totals with singular modules because shield modules give less hp on average. The Amarr has fewer slots to try to match anything anyhow (as shorting the Amarr on slots for questionable hp gains and speed penalties is a running theme). So, while the Caldari can apparently easily match the Commando with a relatively low-level set of mods (with respect to hp), the Amarr has issues match the shields with anything but much more expensive mods. The Amarr can still do so, it just winds up requiring higher skill levels and more ISK. Rather than suggest the Commando is powerful though, this suggests to me that the speed and slot penalties the Amarr get in exchange for their HP boosts aren't particularly balanced at any level. The Amarr Assault's 30 hp advantage over Gall/Cald assaults is completely washed away by the module slots they get in comparison. This is born out by the fast that a single enhanced shield module or basic armor plates easily compensates for that "advantage" without giving the same speed penalty. This sounds more like you're just saying the Amarr suits suck in general.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1315	Posted - 2013.07.15 12:52:00 - [22] - Quote Well, they kinda do. Amarr get hit doubly for their "hp bonus" - both shorted a slot and they get a speed hit. The speed hit can't be made up with modules (you can only increase sprint speed), and the hp difference can be made up without the speed loss to greater effect than the hp advantage. Basically, they pay too much for something of questionable worth. Other racial combos can outdo them on hp and speed at the same time which negates their advantage making them effectively the worst racial variant in the game. The racial bonuses they're given are doubly a joke (Commando or Amarr Logi) because they also rely on slots. They don't have the slots to make those advantages matter, and so other races beat them even in the areas where they have passive bonuses (compare Amarr logi and Gallente logi on armor repair). The game design right now has a "F' the Amarr" philosophy going, for whatever reason.
Talos Alomar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1188	Posted - 2013.07.15 14:50:00 - [23] - Quote I've had limited success with a LR/ AssSCR combo on a commando - so it feels like the suit does have potential. The suits biggest downfall is it's terrible shield. It takes an eternity to start recharging and then it takes even longer to recharge. I would slap a shield recharger on it but it doesn't have enough slots to let us try to make up for the suits weakness. I've got a couple suggestions that would make the commando suit halfway usable. 1. up the CPU/PG output. Being able to put high end mods into the limited slots would be nice. 2. an extra low slot at all levels. I say low slot so we can put armor reps and a regulator on the suit at adv/proto to help the terrible shields out and put a armor repper on a basic. the commando lacks any ability to survive on its own right now. 3. possibly a terrible Idea, but if the commando was as fast as a caldari assault it could be used for brutal front line combat and get some use out of it's melee bonus.
Scheneighnay McBob Tribal Band Dust Mercenaries Immortals of War 2362	Posted - 2013.07.15 15:27:00 - [24] - Quote It would make more sense to compare an Amarr assault to the Commando, since they're both Amarr
Master Jaraiya Ultramarine Corp 434	Posted - 2013.07.15 16:36:00 - [25] - Quote I'm just going to leave this here.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1319	Posted - 2013.07.15 16:37:00 - [26] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: It would make more sense to compare an Amarr assault to the Commando, since they're both Amarr And it's already been shown that CCP favors the Caldari in every respect I guess. The point here is that from an absolute cost-perspective, a player can outdo the commando with a much cheaper suit on pretty much every level. What race you're choosing really shouldn't enter into that. If CCP has designed the races so that a Caldari assault suit can beat an Amarr Commando in every conceivable way, comparing it to the Amarr assault instead won't change the fact that it's horribly imbalanced. This is aside from the fact that the Caldari Assault is THE ASSAULT suit to compare to. It's featured in all the ads, and it's seen many many BPO releases for it specifically. The Amarr Assault has no BPO released.
Dehlia Metii not in a corporation 22	Posted - 2013.07.20 16:54:00 - [27] - Quote Can't recall the last time I even saw a commando...
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1349	Posted - 2013.07.22 00:02:00 - [28] - Quote I figured I'd reiterate that the Commando continues to suck. I think most people have avoided it (you rarely see them) which probably accounts for the lack of threads about it. It sucks to the point of being unsalvage-able in its current state. On the alt with Commando to 5, I still find using a Caldari STD suit BPO to be generally much much more effective even without any points in Caldari suits. That's how bad a proto Commando is.
Kelrie Nae'bre not in a corporation 59	Posted - 2013.07.25 05:29:00 - [29] - Quote They don't completely suck... when you see one, you know you've got an easy kill... so that's nice.
WeapondigitX V7 Planetary Response Organization 62	Posted - 2013.07.25 10:36:00 - [30] - Quote The commando suit does need its stats buffed. The suit itself needs a much larger sprint speed. Something like a 1.2 increase in sprint speed. The standard, advanced and proto versions all need 1 extra high and low slot. (allowing players to increase shield recharge rates or sprint speeds or HP etc). All commando suits for amarr also need a increase in CPU and PG if any extra modules or grenade slots are added.



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