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Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1123
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Posted - 2013.07.04 02:07:00 -
[1] - Quote
...then why does the blaster-tech mimic-gun/knock-off have better optimal and max range than the actual scrambler (pulse laser)? You apparently adjusted the Scrambler Rifle range in this last patch, but you left the range advantage squarely with the "shortest range" tech.
Duvolle-TAR: 65 optimal, 100 max range. Imperial-Scr: 50 optimal, 87 max range.
You gave the blaster trying to mimic the superior technology/gun-type a 30% range advantage on optimal and 15% range advantage on max.
Unless you're going to release a "OMG-SUPER-TACTICAL-SCRAMBLER" Rifle that gets better range, I don't know what the hell you were thinking here. It seems to fly against exactly what you've stated your aims were in creating variants and having techs behave in a certain way. It's one thing if they make a variety of Blaster that has higher range the average blaster, it's another if it's superior in range to the tech and type it's supposed to be a knock-off of. |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
385
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Posted - 2013.07.04 02:17:00 -
[2] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:...then why does the blaster-tech mimic-gun/knock-off have better optimal and max range than the actual scrambler (pulse laser)? You apparently adjusted the Scrambler Rifle range in this last patch, but you left the range advantage squarely with the "shortest range" tech.
Duvolle-TAR: 65 optimal, 100 max range. Imperial-Scr: 50 optimal, 87 max range.
You gave the blaster trying to mimic the superior technology/gun-type a 30% range advantage on optimal and 15% range advantage on max.
Unless you're going to release a "OMG-SUPER-TACTICAL-SCRAMBLER" Rifle that gets better range, I don't know what the hell you were thinking here. It seems to fly against exactly what you've stated your aims were in creating variants and having techs behave in a certain way. It's one thing if they make a variety of Blaster that has higher range the average blaster, it's another if it's superior in range to the tech and type it's supposed to be a knock-off of.
Well I know for certain the TAR can't charge up and 1 shot a adv suit, might be a balancing thing I don't know. |
Meeko Fent
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
139
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Posted - 2013.07.04 02:17:00 -
[3] - Quote
CCP likes the ARs.
We have known this for a long time.
Swap the damn TAR and ScR ranges.
Fixed. |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1127
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Posted - 2013.07.04 02:21:00 -
[4] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:
Well I know for certain the TAR can't charge up and 1 shot a adv suit, might be a balancing thing I don't know.
It also doesn't overheat and has access to a skill that tightens its spread. A few head shots with a TAR will drop someone quickly, and without 1.5 second charge in the middle of it. Those are balancing measures without even considering the range.
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SponkSponkSponk
The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION
45
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Posted - 2013.07.04 02:31:00 -
[5] - Quote
Even the assault scrambler is worse than the standard AR at range, due to higher kick when scoped (i.e. the exact situation where a scrambler is meant to be better than an AR) |
SponkSponkSponk
The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION
45
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Posted - 2013.07.04 02:33:00 -
[6] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:It also doesn't overheat and has access to a skill that tightens its spread. A few head shots with a TAR will drop someone quickly, and without 1.5 second charge in the middle of it. Those are balancing measures without even considering the range.
We could go back and forth over the relative merits of the scram vs the TAC, but the glaring difference is the max/optimal range discrepancy. |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1129
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Posted - 2013.07.04 02:36:00 -
[7] - Quote
SponkSponkSponk wrote:Zeylon Rho wrote:It also doesn't overheat and has access to a skill that tightens its spread. A few head shots with a TAR will drop someone quickly, and without 1.5 second charge in the middle of it. Those are balancing measures without even considering the range.
We could go back and forth over the relative merits of the scram vs the TAC, but the glaring difference is the max/optimal range discrepancy.
Ergo, the topic at hand... |
Meeko Fent
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
139
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Posted - 2013.07.04 02:42:00 -
[8] - Quote
As I said before, swap the damn ranges.
The ARs still have their exobanent range for their balls of sun, and the ScR has the range to counter the AR Rambos |
ZDub 303
TeamPlayers EoN.
569
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Posted - 2013.07.04 02:55:00 -
[9] - Quote
It does seem odd doesn't it? Esp since laser weaponry is supposed to have a longer range than blaster weaponry.
The tac could still be quite powerful if they lowered the optimal to the same as the charged scrambler and raised the RoF a bit (~25-30%). Increasing clip size to 22 for GLU and 30 for the DTAR, and then lowering its damage ~15%. It just becomes a similarly ranged semi auto variant of the Gallente AR.
With the tactical rail rifle taking the position of the current TAR. Very high range, low RoF, high damage. |
Aizen Intiki
Ghost Wolf Industries Alpha Wolf Pack
30
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Posted - 2013.07.04 03:46:00 -
[10] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:It does seem odd doesn't it? Esp since laser weaponry is supposed to have a longer range than blaster weaponry.
The tac could still be quite powerful if they lowered the optimal to the same as the charged scrambler and raised the RoF a bit (~25-30%). Increasing clip size to 22 for GLU and 30 for the DTAR, and then lowering its damage ~15%. It just becomes a similarly ranged semi auto variant of the Gallente AR.
With the tactical rail rifle taking the position of the current TAR. Very high range, low RoF, high damage. It's gonna have slightly higher breach damage and it's ROF, but as high, maybe even higher range |
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Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1129
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Posted - 2013.07.04 04:01:00 -
[11] - Quote
That's the theory, but they have a blaster with higher range than the equivalent scrambler. The tactical rail rifle might wind up with SMG range. |
Aizen Intiki
Ghost Wolf Industries Alpha Wolf Pack
30
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Posted - 2013.07.04 04:05:00 -
[12] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:That's the theory, but they have a blaster with higher range than the equivalent scrambler. The tactical rail rifle might wind up with SMG range.
Highly doubt that, but okay. |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1129
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Posted - 2013.07.04 04:19:00 -
[13] - Quote
Aizen Intiki wrote:Zeylon Rho wrote:That's the theory, but they have a blaster with higher range than the equivalent scrambler. The tactical rail rifle might wind up with SMG range. Highly doubt that, but okay.
It was hyperbole. The point is their range specs are already off from what they've suggested.
Across weapons of the same type, with respect to range, Rail > Laser > Projectile > Blaster
That's what they say. However, with the exact same weapon type now, the 2nd highest range tech is out-ranged by the lowest range tech. In EVE, the Pulse Laser would always have a 4x advantage on Blasters with respect to range. They don't need to stick to that, but they're not even sticking to "Laser is higher range than Blaster". So, clearly they're not adhering to even the simple system they've suggested. |
Aizen Intiki
Ghost Wolf Industries Alpha Wolf Pack
32
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Posted - 2013.07.04 04:59:00 -
[14] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:Aizen Intiki wrote:Zeylon Rho wrote:That's the theory, but they have a blaster with higher range than the equivalent scrambler. The tactical rail rifle might wind up with SMG range. Highly doubt that, but okay. It was hyperbole. The point is their range specs are already off from what they've suggested. Across weapons of the same type, with respect to range, Rail > Laser > Projectile > Blaster That's what they say. However, with the exact same weapon type now, the 2nd highest range tech is out-ranged by the lowest range tech. In EVE, the Pulse Laser would always have a 4x advantage on Blasters with respect to range. They don't need to stick to that, but they're not even sticking to "Laser is higher range than Blaster". So, clearly they're not adhering to even the simple system they've suggested.
Actually, the actual list is Rail Rifle>Laser Rifle>Scrambler RIfle>Combat Rifle>Plasma Rifle. Say the right terms. Oh, and projectiles refer to both autocannons and arty's, and the Mass driver isn't a rifle..... Anyways, yes, they derped out on it, but I'm sure they'll fix it (read: get rid of TAC and Burst PR's) |
Meeko Fent
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
139
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Posted - 2013.07.04 05:03:00 -
[15] - Quote
For purpose of balance, the lasers have to have more range because the simple Standard ScR lacks the DPS of the AR without the range it needs.
But maybe the planets we are fighting on have dense atmospheres and the lasers light beam refracts quickly.
But the lore should never fully dictate the gameplay.
Then we would have projectile space guns, as the gun oil will either freeze up, causing the gun to not work, or the oil to boil away as the searing heat boils the oil away, causing the weapon the weap to malfunction and break. |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1130
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 07:19:00 -
[16] - Quote
Meeko Fent wrote:For purpose of balance, the lasers have to have more range because the simple Standard ScR lacks the DPS of the AR without the range it needs.
But maybe the planets we are fighting on have dense atmospheres and the lasers light beam refracts quickly.
But the lore should never fully dictate the gameplay.
Then we would have projectile space guns, as the gun oil will either freeze up, causing the gun to not work, or the oil to boil away as the searing heat boils the oil away, causing the weapon the weap to malfunction and break.
If the Amarr developed great cooling systems for lasers, they should probably work better in an atmosphere as opposed to space, as radiation is the only means of cooling in a vacuum and is inefficient compared to conduction or convection.
The lore shouldn't fully dictate the gameplay, and that much was clear from the outset. The ratio is nothing like 4-1 for even a beam laser and a tactical plasma blaster. However, some effort should be made to have it at least resemble the same universe, I mean... "One universe" is kinda the tagline of the game.
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madd greazy
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
87
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Posted - 2013.07.04 07:22:00 -
[17] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:
Well I know for certain the TAR can't charge up and 1 shot a adv suit, might be a balancing thing I don't know.
It also doesn't overheat and has access to a skill that tightens its spread. A few head shots with a TAR will drop someone quickly, and without 1.5 second charge in the middle of it. Those are balancing measures without even considering the range.
you can't charge your TAR while under cover and snap out quickly for a 700dmg headshot either... |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1130
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 07:28:00 -
[18] - Quote
madd greazy wrote:Zeylon Rho wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:
Well I know for certain the TAR can't charge up and 1 shot a adv suit, might be a balancing thing I don't know.
It also doesn't overheat and has access to a skill that tightens its spread. A few head shots with a TAR will drop someone quickly, and without 1.5 second charge in the middle of it. Those are balancing measures without even considering the range. you can't charge your TAR while under cover and snap out quickly for a 700dmg headshot either...
And the TAR won't overheat and kill you when you're low on hp. Taking follow-up shots is going to be a lot easier without the overheat issues that follow charge shots as well.
Those trade-offs are separate from the range issue. They've outright stated that the Amarr Scrambler is the standard for the Tactical Rifle that other races may emulate with their own variants (like the TAR). They've also stated blasters are the shortest range tech, while Scramblers are longer range than both them and the minmatar projectile rifle.
It doesn't make sense to have a knock-off rifle made with shorter-range tech be longer than the prototypical rifle of that type. |
madd greazy
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
87
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Posted - 2013.07.04 07:32:00 -
[19] - Quote
railguns were made from conventional projectile technology research and they out range combustion fired projectiles |
madd greazy
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
87
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Posted - 2013.07.04 07:32:00 -
[20] - Quote
just saying |
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Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1130
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Posted - 2013.07.04 07:58:00 -
[21] - Quote
madd greazy wrote:railguns were made from conventional projectile technology research and they out range combustion fired projectiles
I'm not sure what you're referring to. Are you making a real-world comparison? Because railguns as they exist today wouldn't be handheld.
I shortened things for brevity in some posts, but I mentioned elsewhere that railguns outrange lasers (by CCP's metric as well).
The pecking order range-wise in EVE is:
Railgun (hybrid) > Artillery (projectile) > Beam (laser) > Pulse (laser) > Autocannon (projectile) > Blaster (hybrid)
The titles like "projectile" are EVE conventions, despite the fact a Railgun is presumably accelerating a projectile as well. The greater point here is that a Pulse Laser Tech weapon (Scrambler Rifle) that is meant to be the default variant of "Tactical" rifle is a much longer range tech than Blaster Tech (AR) and also longer than Autocannon (Min. Combat Rifle). It should outrange a knock-off long-range rifle made with plasma blaster tech.
By the same token, you'd expect the Beam laser rifle to outrange the Pulse Scrambler, and a railgun to outrange the Scrambler as well (as the Sniper Rifle does). When the railgun variant of a tactical rifle is created, it having somewhat longer range than the Scrambler would be less weird, though presumably you'd want to account for other drawbacks there. I'd assume fire-rate will be a big one, and possibly capacity. |
Cat Merc
Oculus Felis
1683
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Posted - 2013.07.04 08:04:00 -
[22] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:...then why does the blaster-tech mimic-gun/knock-off have better optimal and max range than the actual scrambler (pulse laser)? You apparently adjusted the Scrambler Rifle range in this last patch, but you left the range advantage squarely with the "shortest range" tech.
Duvolle-TAR: 65 optimal, 100 max range. Imperial-Scr: 50 optimal, 87 max range.
You gave the blaster trying to mimic the superior technology/gun-type a 30% range advantage on optimal and 15% range advantage on max.
Unless you're going to release a "OMG-SUPER-TACTICAL-SCRAMBLER" Rifle that gets better range, I don't know what the hell you were thinking here. It seems to fly against exactly what you've stated your aims were in creating variants and having techs behave in a certain way. It's one thing if they make a variety of Blaster that has higher range the average blaster, it's another if it's superior in range to the tech and type it's supposed to be a knock-off of. Because that's a trade off. Our fire rate is capped at 400RPM and have terrible hip fire, and a really really tiny clip, but we get more range.
You get a tight hip fire, 700+ RPM, a huge clip, but less range and overheat so you won't spam the R1 button. (Because that's the TAR before the nerf in a nutshell) |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1130
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 08:33:00 -
[23] - Quote
The overheat mechanic, lack of sharpshooter skill, higher required light weapon op, and specialized damage type are elements/drawbacks involved in using the scrambler. The blaster is supposed to be the high-damage short-range weapon, it should beat the an assault scrambler, for example, at short ranges. The Scrambler is supposed to be the tactical rifle, and the tech type is longer range than plasma blasters.
If the gallente designed a knock-off tactical rifle to give their rifle line a longer range tactical option, it should be longer range than their standard blasters, sure. However, it: A. Shouldn't out-range a superior-range tech type, and B. Shouldn't out-range the rifle type that's intended to be the model/standard for the long-range tactical rifle.
If the Scrambler is "better" than the TAR, it should be, because the Tactical is supposed to be what the Scrambler is good at, and that definitely includes range. If the Assault Scrambler is better than the AR at short range, it shouldn't be, because high-damage at short-range is supposed to be what the Blaster rifle is tops at. |
Imp Smash
Seraphim Auxiliaries CRONOS.
146
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Posted - 2013.07.04 10:22:00 -
[24] - Quote
Honestly I'm cool with the range on SRs I'd they fix the dispersion issue. AR skills can make it pinpoint accurate - but no skills make the SRs shoot strait. If the SR won't have the range it should at least have accuracy as it is NOT a cqc weapon yeah? |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1130
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Posted - 2013.07.04 11:26:00 -
[25] - Quote
Imp Smash wrote:Honestly I'm cool with the range on SRs I'd they fix the dispersion issue. AR skills can make it pinpoint accurate - but no skills make the SRs shoot strait. If the SR won't have the range it should at least have accuracy as it is NOT a cqc weapon yeah?
I'd assume the laser would be more accurate than the blaster by default. However, I'm mostly ok with the assault scrambler being more... scattered than an AR, because the AR is suppsoed to be better at the assault variant. The range is sticking point for me, in lore, logic, and practicality. |
Meeko Fent
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
143
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Posted - 2013.07.04 18:37:00 -
[26] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:For purpose of balance, the lasers have to have more range because the simple Standard ScR lacks the DPS of the AR without the range it needs.
But maybe the planets we are fighting on have dense atmospheres and the lasers light beam refracts quickly.
But the lore should never fully dictate the gameplay.
Then we would have projectile space guns, as the gun oil will either freeze up, causing the gun to not work, or the oil to boil away as the searing heat boils the oil away, causing the weapon the weap to malfunction and break. If the Amarr developed great cooling systems for lasers, they should probably work better in an atmosphere as opposed to space, as radiation is the only means of cooling in a vacuum and is inefficient compared to conduction or convection. The lore shouldn't fully dictate the gameplay, and that much was clear from the outset. The ratio is nothing like 4-1 for even a beam laser and a tactical plasma blaster. However, some effort should be made to have it at least resemble the same universe, I mean... "One universe" is kinda the tagline of the game. I mean the range of the ScR because the beam is refracted by the air, causing the range to be different.
But again, lore doesn't dictate gameplay |
Daxxis KANNAH
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
137
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Posted - 2013.07.04 19:32:00 -
[27] - Quote
Zeylon Rho is explaining it the same way Remnant did so I too dont understand why the changes werent made.
Once again - silence from CCP on the subject; Remnant (or at least a disciple ie some intern / assistant) should keep a stickied thread so we know whats what with the weapons. It can be dev posts only but at least we will know what is working as intended and why things are the way they are. |
Kelrie Nae'bre
not in a corporation
43
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Posted - 2013.07.05 06:33:00 -
[28] - Quote
I thinking adjusting the range to make sense within their own universe makes sense. |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1142
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Posted - 2013.07.07 04:16:00 -
[29] - Quote
Kelrie Nae'bre wrote:I thinking adjusting the range to make sense within their own universe makes sense.
Thanks. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
4716
|
Posted - 2013.07.07 04:21:00 -
[30] - Quote
I wondered the same thing, its pretty ridiculous. |
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