DUST Search - With EZ-mode swarms, why have forge guns?

Aero Yassavi wrote:

Spkr4theDead wrote:

Aero Yassavi wrote:

A popular fallacy in FPS games is that aiming = all the skill. This is simply not true. In all honesty, it's not very hard to aim. I know a lot of people like to pride themselves in how precisely they can move their thumbs, but come on. Especially when you're aiming at a big fat vehicle, it's pretty easy.

The skill in using swarm launchers doesn't come from aiming, it comes from positioning yourself the right way to land a hit. They swarm launchers move slow and have limited range, so unlike the forge you have to get fairly close. When the swarm launchers fire, 4 to 6 bright lights appear right on top of your head revealing yourself to every enemy with a set of eyes, especially snipers. The swarms can be seen coming and give the pilot of the vehicle plenty of time to maneuver behind cover, so you need to take that into consideration.

Honestly your logic is flawed with the simple fact that anyone can tell you its easier to stand far back and destroy a vehicle with the forge gun than hunting one down with swarms. There's a lot more skill to any FPS aside from aiming.

"Skill getting into position." Are you really trying to find any argument at all to say that a lock-on fire-and-forget weapon takes any remote amount of intelligence to use? The argument that we've been making is that even noobs that know nothing deep about swarm launchers are effective AV having just militia swarms and the one damage mod on their suit.

There's no "skill" involved in knowing to climb a ladder with a fresh nanohive. There's intelligence involved in having to aim a forge gun. Gaming is not a "skill," neither is being "good" at it. Being good at guitar is a skill, for example. Knowing what's wrong with a mid-90s car without needing sensors is a skill.

Stop trying to say that swarms are hard to use, because they're not. In fact, they're the easiest AV I've ever seen in any game I've ever played. The Javelin in BF3 takes longer to lock on, and can be defeated by a few different countermeasures. There aren't any countermeasures on here.

Oh man, the crying that will take place if CCP ever gives vehicles countermeasures to swarms...

Take a swarm launcher up a ladder or hill and start firing is a non-pub match. You'll get killed instantly. Yes, there is some skill involved in not dying when you are using a dead give a way weapon that requires you to get closer than the other AV weapon.

To be frank I don't understand your argument. Learning a guitar is harder than playing a videogame? Well, that's some keen insight there buddy. It sounds like your base argument here is that playing a videogame isn't hard. Well of course not, but it's all relative. When you compare the swarm launcher to the forge gun in terms of difficulty of use the forge gun is much easier to destroying vehicles with.

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 :: one page

Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Operative 1171 Aajli D3LTA ACADEMY 38	Posted - 2013.07.01 14:32:00 - [61] - Quote Both my shield tank and armor tank say forge guns are the better AV. I usually laugh at swarms. I have to get out of there though after so many hits of constant fire. Usually, 2 or more and grenades is what gets me. I can see what direction swarms come from too. I never see forge gun animation and keep getting hit from a side opposite from where I think it's coming from.
Solomon Malcolm BurgezzE.T.F 32	Posted - 2013.07.01 14:55:00 - [62] - Quote I think it's actually better with both swarms and forge combined.
Spkr4theDead Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 227	Posted - 2013.07.01 17:28:00 - [63] - Quote loffinator wrote: Dust Project 514 wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: After that, why use something that requires aim when the game takes care of it for you? Because you can snipe infantry with a forge gun, but not with a swarm launcher. FORGE GUNS ARE NOT SNIPER RIFLES are only meant for vehicles and and other stuff Oh come on man, how many times have you been right next to me and seen a corpse bounce from my forge gun?
Spkr4theDead Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 227	Posted - 2013.07.01 17:46:00 - [64] - Quote You're all forgetting that at least the advanced suit is best for heavies, whereas you can put swarms on every suit. Forge gun - heavies, swarm launcher - scout, logi, assault and heavy. Add that you can carry your own nanohives instead of being tethered to someone else's or, tethered to a supply depot. Plus, depending on fit and skills, you may not be able to carry grenades. That's pretty much a non-issue with a logi. Damage mods out the rear, and as many nanohives as CPU and PG allow. So please, before you go trying to knock down my argument and call it stupid, remember the SP investment as well. As we all well know, only the heavy suits can wield the heavy weapons.
Xender17 Intrepidus XI Omega Commission 192	Posted - 2013.07.01 17:51:00 - [65] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: calisk galern wrote: short answer, forge guns are the better av. You're a fool if you think that. 12 agree with him... Only 1 with you.
Spkr4theDead Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 227	Posted - 2013.07.01 17:56:00 - [66] - Quote Xender17 wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: calisk galern wrote: short answer, forge guns are the better av. You're a fool if you think that. 12 agree with him... Only 1 with you. See my post right above yours. And as I said, I'm only referring to its AV purpose, not the lolforging I enjoy doing to infantry. Was that post ignored by everybody?
KOBLAKA1 Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 148	Posted - 2013.07.01 19:03:00 - [67] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Xender17 wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: calisk galern wrote: short answer, forge guns are the better av. You're a fool if you think that. 12 agree with him... Only 1 with you. See my post right above yours. And as I said, I'm only referring to its AV purpose, not the lolforging I enjoy doing to infantry. Was that post ignored by everybody? apparently mine was too KOBLAKA1 wrote: Proto swarms do more damage than all but breach FG. That's a little effed up when medium frames can stack way more dmg mods than a heavy. FG is great at infantry sniping, limited ammo means a lot of people aren't patient enough to use it effectively. swarms>than forge at AV FG requires aiming plus all the disadvantages of being heavy and we can't use equipment so limited ammo or stuck on high visibility nanohives. Fun math. I dont feel like doing stcking penalties so it rough i went with 10%, 7.5% 5% 2.5% for simplicity. So 25% damage increase proto swarms do 2475 dmg = 1.25x (6x330). So this is without damage proficiency skill too. (I love my forge gun but it gets outperformed)
Knightshade Belladonna G.R.A.V.E 386	Posted - 2013.07.01 19:18:00 - [68] - Quote I love my militia FG and dren sent suit. DA POWA , ohhhhhh DA POWA. lol , for real though.. don't touch the forge gun, it has it's uses and so does the swarm
Spkr4theDead Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 228	Posted - 2013.07.01 19:22:00 - [69] - Quote Knightshade Belladonna wrote: I love my militia FG and dren sent suit. DA POWA , ohhhhhh DA POWA. lol , for real though.. don't touch the forge gun, it has it's uses and so does the swarm ........................ where did I say I wanted the forge gun changed? Of course swarms have it uses. It's the single best AV weapon I've ever seen in any game I've ever played. Makes the Javelin on BF3 look like a bottle rocket.
loffinator ZionTCD 0	Posted - 2013.07.01 20:10:00 - [70] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: loffinator wrote: Dust Project 514 wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: After that, why use something that requires aim when the game takes care of it for you? Because you can snipe infantry with a forge gun, but not with a swarm launcher. FORGE GUNS ARE NOT SNIPER RIFLES are only meant for vehicles and and other stuff Oh come on man, how many times have you been right next to me and seen a corpse bounce from my forge gun? i should be a bit more pacific the one what the infantry use are for vehicle

MassiveNine Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 181	Posted - 2013.07.01 20:15:00 - [71] - Quote dude this thread is a joke. I forge snipe with my proto assault forge pretty much every match and while I may not do as well as I would with my HMG it's still fun and easy too, not many tanks can hang.
Spkr4theDead Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 229	Posted - 2013.07.01 20:19:00 - [72] - Quote MassiveNine wrote: dude this thread is a joke. I forge snipe with my proto assault forge pretty much every match and while I may not do as well as I would with my HMG it's still fun and easy too, not many tanks can hang. ....................................................................... you missed the whole gist of the thread, didn't you.
gbghg L.O.T.I.S. RISE of LEGION 2160	Posted - 2013.07.01 20:47:00 - [73] - Quote I'm sorry but forge guns are just the better AV, and that's just down to accuracy, range, and damage. Swarms suffer from the lock on, travel time, and the fact that they can't fire again until the first volley hits. Swarms have their uses I'm not arguing that fact, but it's most effective as an area denial weapon. Forge guns are what you want if you actually want to kill a vehicle, with their damage combined with their ROF, generally high accuracy, and the tiny travel time on the projectiles, means they are much more effective at killing vehicles, they can do. Ore damage, faster, than a comparable swarm launcher. I fly both types of dropships and I dabble in LAV's a bit, and honestly I've lost less than 10 dropships this build to swarms and most of those deaths were because I got knocked into buildings or terrain. Swarms just aren't as effective as forge guns, they're something to be wary of but not worth panicking over, 9 times out of 10 you can get out of range before the second or third volley hits (depending on your choice of dropship and fit). Forge guns are another matter completely, a good forge gun user can normally hit an unsuspecting pilot at least twice in the time it takes one swarm volley to hit, and often those two hits are all that are needed.
Spkr4theDead Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 229	Posted - 2013.07.01 20:51:00 - [74] - Quote gbghg wrote: I'm sorry but forge guns are just the better AV, and that's just down to accuracy, range, and damage. Swarms suffer from the lock on, travel time, and the fact that they can't fire again until the first volley hits. What the hell are you talking about? I've seen two more volleys behind the first one that just hit me/a friend's tank.
Spkr4theDead Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 230	Posted - 2013.07.02 01:30:00 - [75] - Quote I'm not letting this go down to the trash heap. Bump
Spkr4theDead Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 233	Posted - 2013.07.02 16:23:00 - [76] - Quote Bump
imma monsta OUT FOR BLOOD. 0	Posted - 2013.07.02 16:28:00 - [77] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: A popular fallacy in FPS games is that aiming = all the skill. This is simply not true. In all honesty, it's not very hard to aim. I know a lot of people like to pride themselves in how precisely they can move their thumbs, but come on. Especially when you're aiming at a big fat vehicle, it's pretty easy. The skill in using swarm launchers doesn't come from aiming, it comes from positioning yourself the right way to land a hit. They swarm launchers move slow and have limited range, so unlike the forge you have to get fairly close. When the swarm launchers fire, 4 to 6 bright lights appear right on top of your head revealing yourself to every enemy with a set of eyes, especially snipers. The swarms can be seen coming and give the pilot of the vehicle plenty of time to maneuver behind cover, so you need to take that into consideration. Honestly your logic is flawed with the simple fact that anyone can tell you its easier to stand far back and destroy a vehicle with the forge gun than hunting one down with swarms. There's a lot more skill to any FPS aside from aiming. "Skill getting into position." Are you really trying to find any argument at all to say that a lock-on fire-and-forget weapon takes any remote amount of intelligence to use? The argument that we've been making is that even noobs that know nothing deep about swarm launchers are effective AV having just militia swarms and the one damage mod on their suit. There's no "skill" involved in knowing to climb a ladder with a fresh nanohive. There's intelligence involved in having to aim a forge gun. Gaming is not a "skill," neither is being "good" at it. Being good at guitar is a skill, for example. Knowing what's wrong with a mid-90s car without needing sensors is a skill. Stop trying to say that swarms are hard to use, because they're not. In fact, they're the easiest AV I've ever seen in any game I've ever played. The Javelin in BF3 takes longer to lock on, and can be defeated by a few different countermeasures. There aren't any countermeasures on here. Oh man, the crying that will take place if CCP ever gives vehicles countermeasures to swarms... Take a swarm launcher up a ladder or hill and start firing is a non-pub match. You'll get killed instantly. Yes, there is some skill involved in not dying when you are using a dead give a way weapon that requires you to get closer than the other AV weapon. To be frank I don't understand your argument. Learning a guitar is harder than playing a videogame? Well, that's some keen insight there buddy. It sounds like your base argument here is that playing a videogame isn't hard. Well of course not, but it's all relative. When you compare the swarm launcher to the forge gun in terms of difficulty of use the forge gun is much easier to destroying vehicles with. True! The second I see those fireflies in the night sky (night mode reference), my sniper is all over you. :]
Rupture Reaperson Deadly Blue Dots RISE of LEGION 201	Posted - 2013.07.02 22:17:00 - [78] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: gbghg wrote: I'm sorry but forge guns are just the better AV, and that's just down to accuracy, range, and damage. Swarms suffer from the lock on, travel time, and the fact that they can't fire again until the first volley hits. What the hell are you talking about? I've seen two more volleys behind the first one that just hit me/a friend's tank. Its called multiple swarmers...
Spkr4theDead Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 238	Posted - 2013.07.02 23:46:00 - [79] - Quote Rupture Reaperson wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: gbghg wrote: I'm sorry but forge guns are just the better AV, and that's just down to accuracy, range, and damage. Swarms suffer from the lock on, travel time, and the fact that they can't fire again until the first volley hits. What the hell are you talking about? I've seen two more volleys behind the first one that just hit me/a friend's tank. Its called multiple swarmers... Not always. How are you going to tell me what I'm seeing from the driver's/gunner's seat, when you're not there?
Rupture Reaperson Deadly Blue Dots RISE of LEGION 204	Posted - 2013.07.03 19:38:00 - [80] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Rupture Reaperson wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: gbghg wrote: I'm sorry but forge guns are just the better AV, and that's just down to accuracy, range, and damage. Swarms suffer from the lock on, travel time, and the fact that they can't fire again until the first volley hits. What the hell are you talking about? I've seen two more volleys behind the first one that just hit me/a friend's tank. Its called multiple swarmers... Not always. How are you going to tell me what I'm seeing from the driver's/gunner's seat, when you're not there? Because there is no way you can fire 2 swarm volleys without a full 1.5 sec - 2 sec window between volleys, trust me on this one.

Superluminal Replicant Planetary Response Organization 82	Posted - 2013.07.03 20:14:00 - [81] - Quote Awww a forge gun vs swarm launcher thread how cute Be in a match with me and ill show you why forge gun rocks vs swarm, that's if im not afking
Spkr4theDead Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 249	Posted - 2013.07.04 02:49:00 - [82] - Quote Rupture Reaperson wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Rupture Reaperson wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: gbghg wrote: I'm sorry but forge guns are just the better AV, and that's just down to accuracy, range, and damage. Swarms suffer from the lock on, travel time, and the fact that they can't fire again until the first volley hits. What the hell are you talking about? I've seen two more volleys behind the first one that just hit me/a friend's tank. Its called multiple swarmers... Not always. How are you going to tell me what I'm seeing from the driver's/gunner's seat, when you're not there? Because there is no way you can fire 2 swarm volleys without a full 1.5 sec - 2 sec window between volleys, trust me on this one. Yeah, which is exactly the lock on time. Dolt.
Spkr4theDead Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 249	Posted - 2013.07.04 02:49:00 - [83] - Quote Superluminal Replicant wrote: Awww a forge gun vs swarm launcher thread how cute Be in a match with me and ill show you why forge gun rocks vs swarm, that's if im not afking Did Daddy Joe let you represent PRO in such a manner?
LuckyLuke Wargan HavoK Core RISE of LEGION 188	Posted - 2013.07.04 02:54:00 - [84] - Quote I don't know how many times I have to type this this before it gets in people's heads... if you are a driver or pilot, and have trouble with swarms, boost your damn shields up. Swarms, even proto swarms are very inefective against high shields... I have seen LAVs with high shields take 4 proto volleys before having their shields go down.
Syther Shadows The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 188	Posted - 2013.07.04 03:00:00 - [85] - Quote Xocoyol Zaraoul wrote: Because swarms being explosive do kitten-all against my 10K EHP of shields, proto or not... Great against armor HAVs though! Ehp = Estimated hit points .. that means you count both your shield and Armour So you have 10K shield and 996 Armour ? or 996 Armour and 9004 shield ?
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 595	Posted - 2013.07.04 10:07:00 - [86] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Why would anyone use swarms? 1. They can be invisible so the vehicle driver doesnt see it 2. They can do 270deg turns on the spot and still hit you 3. They cannot be outrun by land vehicles 4. They go around corners 5. They require no aiming 6. They lock on in a second or 2 7. You can jump while locking on or firing 8. Currently beast against armor vehicles 9. Can fire from relative safety without getting killed
Kekklian Noobatronic Goonfeet 128	Posted - 2013.07.04 10:42:00 - [87] - Quote calisk galern wrote: short answer, forge guns are the better av. *Were the better AV. Now they do 90% Shields 110% Armor. They're just crappier version of a Swarm launcher now.
ChromeBreaker SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 621	Posted - 2013.07.04 11:10:00 - [88] - Quote No bells n whistles... Proto Assault FG 1500dmg/ 2sec Proto Swarm 2000dmg / 4.5 sec 750dmg/s 444dmg/s You can aim at weak spots with the forge
Abron Garr Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 553	Posted - 2013.07.04 12:42:00 - [89] - Quote ITT: Spkr4theDeaf is tired of his logi LAV getting destroyed.
Reign Omega Quafe Runners 26	Posted - 2013.07.04 12:45:00 - [90] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: That doesn't change the fact that they're useless. And what's with this "skill" at a video game? Being good at a game, especially a fast twitch FPS, does actually take a bit of "skill" in the sense that it isn't something everyone can just pick up and do well. Some people no matter how much they play, can never be anything other than mediocre. Simply because it isn't the most productive thing to do in the world doesn't negate that fact. Before you jump on my back in defense, this is coming from an average FPS player who does other things that also require "skill" extremely well, so I am not trying to defend my Omnipotent controller wielding. To touch on the topic at hand though, being a primarily AV player who does not use FG, I would say that there are times I would have liked to have been able to lead a shot to catch an escaping vehicle. There are also times when I would have liked to get one more shot off before said vehicle ducks behind a building and my missiles bump into said building. There are definitely upsides to using FG, and if anything it is nice to give the fatboys more exclusive options and have differing types of AV on the ground. Nothing more boring than trimming the options down because something is less/more effective, and always nice to have some choices in an FPS.



Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 :: one page
First page \| Previous page \| Next page \| Last page