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mollerz
Minja Scouts
390
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Posted - 2013.06.14 01:21:00 -
[1] - Quote
Currently, the Minja scout is at 2L/3H slots and the Ganja scout is 1H/4L.
I propose changing this to Minja 3L/3H and the ganja to 2H/4L. In addition, buff the CPU/PG by 15-20%.
I can't see anyone having any arguments against this, and makes the scout far more viable. So I won't bother to reinforce why this makes sense. It just does.
If you somehow disagree- see caldari logi 5H/4L. I rest my case.
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Godin Thekiller
Ghost Wolf Industries Alpha Wolf Pack
153
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Posted - 2013.06.14 01:24:00 -
[2] - Quote
Hell yea. +1 |
Cosgar
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
1624
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Posted - 2013.06.14 02:17:00 -
[3] - Quote
Scouts are def going to need a buff like this when aiming eventually gets fixed. |
MASS DR1V3R
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
34
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Posted - 2013.06.14 02:19:00 -
[4] - Quote
+1 |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
210
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Posted - 2013.06.14 02:31:00 -
[5] - Quote
I could get behind this but only if all Heavy Suits receive 1H, 1L and more CPU/PG as well |
mollerz
Minja Scouts
392
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Posted - 2013.06.14 03:08:00 -
[6] - Quote
Master Jaraiya wrote:I could get behind this but only if all Heavy Suits receive 1H, 1L and more CPU/PG as well
This is not a negotiation. GTFO whit your phat ass.
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Shotty GoBang
Pro Hic Immortalis
56
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Posted - 2013.06.14 04:32:00 -
[7] - Quote
Bump. Scouts need some dev love. |
Doyle Reese
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
126
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Posted - 2013.06.14 04:40:00 -
[8] - Quote
pretty sure the Proto G-Scout is supposed to have 2H slots, there's no way losing a High Slot going from ADV to PRO is intentional.
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Cosgar
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
1637
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Posted - 2013.06.14 04:48:00 -
[9] - Quote
Doyle Reese wrote:pretty sure the Proto G-Scout is supposed to have 2H slots, there's no way losing a High Slot going from ADV to PRO is intentional.
Nope, both suits only have one high slot as seen here. |
Doyle Reese
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
126
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Posted - 2013.06.14 05:05:00 -
[10] - Quote
I play Gallente Scouts :P
The G-1/Series (the Advanced) has 2H/2L, the Gk.0 (the Proto) has 1H/4L, which is what it says in the wiki |
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Cosgar
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
1645
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Posted - 2013.06.14 05:16:00 -
[11] - Quote
Doyle Reese wrote:I play Gallente Scouts :P
The G-1/Series (the Advanced) has 2H/2L, the Gk.0 (the Proto) has 1H/4L, which is what it says in the wiki Sorry, I misread your post...
But looking at that slot layout, that's a bit weird. Except for heavy -> sentinel, none of the other suit classes change slot allocations at higher levels. They usually just add slots. You think it's an oversight from the Chrome build when suits had two different slot layouts? |
Rich o
United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION
38
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Posted - 2013.06.14 05:22:00 -
[12] - Quote
+1 |
EXASTRA INVICTAS
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
121
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Posted - 2013.06.14 05:33:00 -
[13] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Doyle Reese wrote:I play Gallente Scouts :P
The G-1/Series (the Advanced) has 2H/2L, the Gk.0 (the Proto) has 1H/4L, which is what it says in the wiki Sorry, I misread your post... But looking at that slot layout, that's a bit weird. Except for heavy -> sentinel, none of the other suit classes change slot allocations at higher levels. They usually just add slots. You think it's an oversight from the Chrome build when suits had two different slot layouts? I believe what CCP did there was trade a high for a low, then add a low for the suit progression (2H/2L->1H/4L) it's still 5 total compared to 4 total. It's a bit "strange" since it's the only time in the game any suits do it but I don't mind it really.
When cloaks (high powered mods) come out you could have Gallente Scouts with a cloak, some armor tank (armor rep + regen plates or ferroscale plates), and some stamina modifiers. I think it will work nicely, although you are sacrificing a high slot. |
Mai Deek
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2013.06.14 06:36:00 -
[14] - Quote
mollerz wrote:Master Jaraiya wrote:I could get behind this but only if all Heavy Suits receive 1H, 1L and more CPU/PG as well This is not a negotiation. GTFO whit your phat ass. funny, but Heavy suits have the same equipment failings as scouts. Max of 5 combined for high and low at proto level..
Not like we are asking for an equipment slot... |
Oswald Rehnquist
Abandoned Privilege General Tso's Alliance
29
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Posted - 2013.06.14 13:16:00 -
[15] - Quote
Your proposition is more geared towards the scout assault hybrid. They need at least 2 scouts with 2 equipment slots to seperate themselves from paper assaults. |
Shotty GoBang
Pro Hic Immortalis
56
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Posted - 2013.06.14 13:24:00 -
[16] - Quote
Mai Deek wrote:mollerz wrote:Master Jaraiya wrote:I could get behind this but only if all Heavy Suits receive 1H, 1L and more CPU/PG as well This is not a negotiation. GTFO whit your phat ass. funny, but Heavy suits have the same equipment failings as scouts. Max of 5 combined for high and low at proto level.. Not like we are asking for an equipment slot...
I disagree, my heavy friend.
There is enormous risk in running with knives, and people expect a balance of risk to reward.
Consider the long list of ways to OHK even the greatest scout among us. 150k+ isk down the drain to one flaylock blast, one sniper round, or one fused locus nade.
Now what's a Proto Heavy's EHP again? I'll ask Cubs next time I see him post 20/0 in a pub. 1000+ HP is not risk. 1000+ HP is not underpowered.
Underpowered is a title reserved for scouts and perhaps DS pilots, who seem to have Dev attention at present. Maybe we scouts can get fixed before Commandos w/shotgun sidearms tilt the scale of risk against us even further.
- Shotty GoBang
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Den-tredje Baron
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
119
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Posted - 2013.06.14 13:46:00 -
[17] - Quote
Mai Deek wrote:mollerz wrote:Master Jaraiya wrote:I could get behind this but only if all Heavy Suits receive 1H, 1L and more CPU/PG as well This is not a negotiation. GTFO whit your phat ass. funny, but Heavy suits have the same equipment failings as scouts. Max of 5 combined for high and low at proto level.. Not like we are asking for an equipment slot...
Hehe just to point out the troll to anyone who didn't get it. YES YOU ARE
It is kind of wierd that the gallente scout at advanced level have 1 more high then it has at proto level. I'm totally with you OP on giving scouts some love but if we give the gall scout one more high making it 2H/4L that would definitely make the gall scout better. The minm is meant to be kind of sqiushy though so instead of making it even stronger what about giving it a equipment more as all scouts SHOULD get but apparently that's to much to ask. Having 2 equipment slots would greatly enhance the kind of skirmish capability of the minm scout while the gall scout would get a more kind of recon scanning and finding enemies feel.
...... Ok not the best idea but what i'm trying to say is the minm scout is sooo fast that this should be it's form of tanking just out running the enemy. So one equipment more it could run around with proxs mm i donno do a lot of cool stuf |
Daxxis KANNAH
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
93
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Posted - 2013.06.14 15:05:00 -
[18] - Quote
Why does the Caldari Logi get the extra slot though?
What is OP is proposing would be great. I would still like a small speed boost or something for my Minny (on principle) but wouldnt care less if I got that extra low slot. |
Sinboto Simmons
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
227
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Posted - 2013.06.16 12:29:00 -
[19] - Quote
let's make this happen guys! |
Benari Kalidima
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
19
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Posted - 2013.06.16 12:33:00 -
[20] - Quote
I don't play as scout, but I fully agree with this, or a buff like this. Scouts really feels like they're made of paper. |
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Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
474
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Posted - 2013.06.17 02:06:00 -
[21] - Quote
blows my mind why they thought a proto scout with 1H/4L would be balanced anyhow. sure why not...
+1 |
Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
2707
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Posted - 2013.06.17 02:11:00 -
[22] - Quote
I would support it, except what you said about the CPU/PG part. 15-20% is too much. I would say only a 10% increase at the most. The scout suit doesn't need that much anyways when used correctly. |
Baosh Shiryl
DUST University Ivy League
3
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Posted - 2013.06.17 02:13:00 -
[23] - Quote
Excelent suggestion.
+1 |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
232
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Posted - 2013.06.17 02:34:00 -
[24] - Quote
Shotty GoBang wrote:Mai Deek wrote:mollerz wrote:Master Jaraiya wrote:I could get behind this but only if all Heavy Suits receive 1H, 1L and more CPU/PG as well This is not a negotiation. GTFO whit your phat ass. funny, but Heavy suits have the same equipment failings as scouts. Max of 5 combined for high and low at proto level.. Not like we are asking for an equipment slot... I disagree, my heavy friend. There exists enormous risk in running with knives, and reasonable people expect a balance of risk to reward. Consider the long list of ways to OHK even the greatest scout among us. 150k+ isk down the drain to one flaylock blast, one sniper round, or one fused locus nade. Now what's a Proto Heavy's EHP again? I'll ask Cubs next time I see him post 20/0 in a pub. 1000+ HP is not risk. 1000+ HP is not underpowered. Underpowered is a title reserved for scouts and perhaps DS pilots, who seem to have Dev attention at present. Maybe we scouts can get fixed before Commandos w/shotgun sidearms tilt the scale of risk against us even further. - Shotty GoBang
There also exists significant ru-waddling in the largest slowest most expensive suit in the game. Sure we have 1000 hp, but our 3.6m/s movement and 5.1/s sprint speeds with 125 stamina more than balance this out.
I get taken out by shotgun scouts more than any thing else in the game. I also get taken out plenty by nova knives. Heavies cannot trak in CQC for crap. Our turning speed is shyte, unless the tango is 20m away it is near impossible to keep them on target even with x sensitivity at 100.
When a heavy is spotted we are attacked by 3+ players at once. how fast do you think that 1000 hp last under sustained fire from 3 or more duvall ARs? At least scouts have tiny hitboxes, and ultrafast movement//sprint speed giving them a chance to escape. All a heavy can do is pray we can out gun these guys(knowing we cannot)
Forget the fact that we can be OHK by plenty of explosives that anyone can carry. My a1 series is OHKd by any frag grenade from MLT locust up,flaylocks, plasma cannons, mass drivers, forge guns, LAVs, HAVs, rail turret installations, etc. if it can OHK a heavy is dead because we cannot dodge jack shyte.
20/0 in a pub is entirely unimpressive! Furthermore, you cannot judge balance by the things that occur in pub matches.
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mollerz
Minja Scouts
420
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Posted - 2013.06.17 02:34:00 -
[25] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:I would support it, except what you said about the CPU/PG part. 15-20% is too much. I would say only a 10% increase at the most. The scout suit doesn't need that much anyways when used correctly.
I disagree. The proto minja scout is severely under powered when it comes to CPU/PG. Maybe the ganja scout is a-ok on that front, but the proto minmatar can't barely fit any complex mods as a pro to with LV5s across the core skills. It is apparent the math wasn't done correctly for the slots they have much less adding more to the mix. Adding one more slot to the ninja suit without a commiserate bump in CPU/PG would make it a dead in the water improvement. As it stands now the CPU/PG is too low, so slot additions or no, that needs to be raised.
Honestly, it seems like the minmatar suit wasn't well thought out. while it's something one can deal with, it becomes a real head scratcher when, again, you compare it to the caldari proto logi. |
True Adamance
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
192
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Posted - 2013.06.17 02:45:00 -
[26] - Quote
mollerz wrote:Currently, the Minja scout is at 2L/3H slots and the Ganja scout is 1H/4L.
I propose changing this to Minja 3L/3H and the ganja to 2H/4L. In addition, buff the CPU/PG by 15-20%.
I can't see anyone having any arguments against this, and makes the scout far more viable. So I won't bother to reinforce why this makes sense. It just does.
If you somehow disagree- see caldari logi 5H/4L. I rest my case.
And what do the other classes get. I can see Logi not needing anything, the heavies and assaults should get something.
infact I would be incredibly happy if assaults got a second grenade slot to balance this out.
I think this scout buff is a wonderful idea. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
234
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Posted - 2013.06.17 03:29:00 -
[27] - Quote
True Adamance wrote: And what do the other classes get. I can see Logi not needing anything, the heavies and assaults should get something.
infact I would be incredibly happy if assaults got a second grenade slot to balance this out.
I think this scout buff is a wonderful idea.
I'm just going to come right out and say it. Assaults are powerful enough as it is! they are supposed to be jack of all trades master of none.
They are becoming Master of all trades God Suits. |
Pseudogenesis
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
20
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Posted - 2013.06.17 04:36:00 -
[28] - Quote
Bump. This is absolutely vital. The risk inherent in running a Proto scout suit isn't even close to the reward. It's entirely pointless. A lot of people complain about heavies getting the short end, but scouts are far worse for wear. |
Shotty GoBang
Pro Hic Immortalis
65
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Posted - 2013.06.17 13:22:00 -
[29] - Quote
Thanks for the response, Jaraiya. I'd like to respond to a few of your points; not for the sake of argument, rather for simple consideration:
Master Jaraiya wrote: I get taken out by shotgun scouts more than any thing else in the game. I also get taken out plenty by nova knives.
A shotgun scout or nova ninja should win against a heavy at or under 3 meters. To accomplish this CQC feat, a scout likely had to sneak in behind enemy lines, find a lone target, stalk him remaining undetected, and await opportunity to close the gap. Even perfectly executed, that scout has blown his cover by attacking you and his odds of survival are bleak if any enemy happens to be nearby.
There are numerous variables a CQC scout must constantly manage and analyze. Situational awareness is the only variable in play for the unfortunate heavy that falls to a scout.
Furthermore, the top shotgunners in the game run assault or logi suits. If the scout offered any significant CQC advantage, Calamity Jane and Annie Oakley would be scouts. They are not. And they'll beat down a shotgun scout in close quarters 99% of the time.
Master Jaraiya wrote: When a heavy is spotted we are attacked by 3+ players at once. how fast do you think that 1000 hp last under sustained fire from 3 or more duvall ARs?
A heavy draws fire because he represents a greater threat. I think I understand your point, but I don't think that a single heavy should offer a fair fight versus focused fire from three ARs.
Master Jaraiya wrote: Furthermore, you cannot judge balance by the things that occur in pub matches.
A veteran CQC scout is less viable in pub combat than an equivalent medium or heavy; this is a fair measurement of imbalance. That imbalance is amplified ten fold in PC when fighting against hardened and organized opponents.
- Shotty |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
241
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Posted - 2013.06.17 14:10:00 -
[30] - Quote
Shotty GoBang wrote:Thanks for the response, Jaraiya. I'd like to respond to a few of your points; not for the sake of argument, rather for simple consideration:
Likewise
Shotty GoBang wrote:A shotgun scout or nova ninja should win against a heavy at or under 3 meters. To accomplish this CQC feat, a scout likely had to sneak in behind enemy lines, find a lone target, stalk him remaining undetected, and await opportunity to close the gap. Even perfectly executed, that scout has blown his cover by attacking you and his odds of survival are bleak if any enemy happens to be nearby.
There are numerous variables a CQC scout must constantly manage and analyze. Situational awareness is the only variable in play for the unfortunate heavy that falls to a scout.
I would agree to this, but I would also add to it.
Heavies completely fail at CQC even though it is suppposed to be our area of expertise. We should dominate CQC. Heavies do not have the speed to turn and track, the speed to close in for kills, or the damage needed to stop opponents.
I rarely am killed by a stealth CQC scout. Most often, they rush head on, strafing and jumping to avoid being hit. Then when the get in close, they simply run circles around me firing at will. It is impossible to keep them on screen let alone on target. Their hitbox is so tiny that minimal damage is dealt when my target does find it's mark for split seconds at a time.
One could say this kind of balance is working as intended.
Shotty GoBang wrote:A heavy draws fire because he represents a greater threat. I think I understand your point, but I don't think that a single heavy should offer a fair fight versus focused fire from three ARs.
This I must highly disagree with. As a heavy, our role is supposed to be point defender. This often means being left behind at an objective alone. Therefore, in order for us to fill our role, we should be able to withstand sustained fire from at the very least 4 ARs. If we cannot then we would simply fail at our role 100% of the time. As it is now, normally when I am spotted by 2 or more, I have time to take 1 or 2 down before I am killed. If I am defending an objective and it gets attacked by lets say 5 guys. I go into defense mode, and I am able to take out 2 while 4 are shooting me (one is hacking). That leaves 3 to hack the Letter, CRU, Supply Depot (if there is one), and/or Turret Installation. Role of Point Defender = EPIC FAIL
Shotty GoBang wrote:Master Jaraiya wrote: Furthermore, you cannot judge balance by the things that occur in pub matches.
A veteran CQC scout is less viable in pub combat than an equivalent medium or heavy; this is a fair measurement of imbalance. That imbalance is amplified ten fold in PC when fighting against hardened and organized opponents. - Shotty
I have played as a CQC scout albeit not in Uprising. I was able to achieve similar KD/R in full MLT Shotgun Scout as I can in my Advanced Heavy suit with complex modules.
My best moment as a Shotgun Scout is when I took out not 1, not 2, but 3 heavies! Yes 3 heavies!
Heavies are hardly viable in PC as well when fighting against hardened and organized opponents who know how to exploit our weaknesses. (Movement Speed, Turning Speed, Range, Dispersion, lack of Shields, etc.) |
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