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Kitten Empress
Ametat Security Amarr Empire
530
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 13:57:00 -
[1] - Quote
You say that the art team is the biggest bottleneck for anything new. Then why not increase the staff in the art team to reduce the bottleneck? That's the reason we still don't have all of the racial dropsuits. Or that we don't have jets. And many other things like that. |
iceyburnz
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
709
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 14:05:00 -
[2] - Quote
Yes I would like to know the reason for the art bottleneck too.
Mainly because Im intrested in art and stuff.
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crazy space 1
Unkn0wn Killers
1339
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 14:17:00 -
[3] - Quote
The art bottle neck must be tied to them not getting work fast enough from the studio they outsource too.
Oh yeah CCP doesn't do their own modeling/texture art btw. |
Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax. CRONOS.
1885
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 14:17:00 -
[4] - Quote
Kitten Empress wrote:You say that the art team is the biggest bottleneck for anything new. Then why not increase the staff in the art team to reduce the bottleneck? That's the reason we still don't have all of the racial dropsuits. Or that we don't have jets. And many other things like that. Well, I gotta call you on Fighters, because I'm telling you right now: flying those in our current redlines would SUCK.
Funny thing is that the game design team is apparently the bottleneck for weapon customization, because we had a post in IRC a while back from one of the art guys saying the visual assets are already finished.
It seems the teams aren't cooperating too well on what they're releasing and when. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
204
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 14:20:00 -
[5] - Quote
Alternatively CCP, stop throwing seconds on their plates as they haven't yet finished their first helping!
For those who fail @ metaphor, why are we getting new classes of vehicles and dropsuits when the classes we currently have are not rounded out with all racial variants. |
crazy space 1
Unkn0wn Killers
1341
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 14:21:00 -
[6] - Quote
I don't know did you check this page to see what CCPs future plans are? They lay it all out right there. http://www.planetside2.com/roadmap
oh wait.... *note I don't like PS2 haha* |
iceyburnz
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
710
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 14:22:00 -
[7] - Quote
Good point. |
Guildo Crow
PROJECT 86 U
41
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 14:59:00 -
[8] - Quote
Just thought I'd throw in some input. This is not meant to be malicious in anyway. so please don't feel that it is.
Being a commercial artist myself, throwing more people at any part of the creative process does not make it go faster. In fact, it will slow the process down. (at first)
This mindset is one of the most aggravating parts of the industry because every client seems to think that way.
Some examples:
If you hire a new artist for your concept team, he/she will not be consistent with the rest of the team. This will lead to multiple rounds of revisions and frustration.
The old team has been painting/drawing/modelling in the same style for months and have developed short hands.
They've got libraries of their own assets that they can reuse and an understanding of their own work files so they can effectively hit their deadlines. (try wading through someone else's work file... yuck)
A new artist will not be able to utilize these as efficiently until he/she spends enough time settling into the creative atmosphere.
THE best thing to do is to just give these guys some time. Time is the only thing that creates a good product. Not more people.
anyhow. Just my experienced point of view. You are welcome to disagree.
I suggest patience. |
Daxxis KANNAH
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
79
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 15:05:00 -
[9] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:Kitten Empress wrote:You say that the art team is the biggest bottleneck for anything new. Then why not increase the staff in the art team to reduce the bottleneck? That's the reason we still don't have all of the racial dropsuits. Or that we don't have jets. And many other things like that. Well, I gotta call you on Fighters, because I'm telling you right now: flying those in our current redlines would SUCK. Funny thing is that the game design team is apparently the bottleneck for weapon customization, because we had a post in IRC a while back from one of the art guys saying the visual assets are already finished. It seems the teams aren't cooperating too well on what they're releasing and when.
So why then does each weapon look the same with only one or two in a weapon line having a repaint.
Why dont we have all the basic dropsuits when it cant be an animation issue because those are already rudimentary.
On jets and certain vehicles with unique features I could see a delay in getting that content in but on things that are basically a reskin with adjust values.... epic fail. They really dont have a leg to stand on. |
steadyhand amarr
Amarr Immortal Volunteers
697
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 15:07:00 -
[10] - Quote
Agree with above in software and art more people does NOT make it go faster :-P and instead slows it down ruins quality |
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Daxxis KANNAH
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
79
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 15:08:00 -
[11] - Quote
@ Guildo Crow - in your experience , should it take more than a year to create 12 models ie the racial dropsuits |
Kitten Empress
Ametat Security Amarr Empire
532
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 15:15:00 -
[12] - Quote
While yes that it slows them down at first as people get familiar with everything, but once everyone knows everything the speed gets a considerable increase. So be medium forever, or be slow at first and then fast forever. |
Avinash Decker
BetaMax. CRONOS.
46
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 15:24:00 -
[13] - Quote
Guildo Crow wrote:Just thought I'd throw in some input. This is not meant to be malicious in anyway. so please don't feel that it is.
Being a commercial artist myself, throwing more people at any part of the creative process does not make it go faster. In fact, it will slow the process down. (at first)
This mindset is one of the most aggravating parts of the industry because every client seems to think that way.
Some examples:
If you hire a new artist for your concept team, he/she will not be consistent with the rest of the team. This will lead to multiple rounds of revisions and frustration.
The old team has been painting/drawing/modelling in the same style for months and have developed short hands.
They've got libraries of their own assets that they can reuse and an understanding of their own work files so they can effectively hit their deadlines. (try wading through someone else's work file... yuck)
A new artist will not be able to utilize these as efficiently until he/she spends enough time settling into the creative atmosphere.
THE best thing to do is to just give these guys some time. Time is the only thing that creates a good product. Not more people.
anyhow. Just my experienced point of view. You are welcome to disagree.
I suggest patience.
Then why do developers that have far more people develop more content quicker and have more polish? Because on one thread people were making the excuse that the reason bf4 has the commander mode first is because they can produce more stuff quickly https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=86415 . I'm just asking really. |
Panther Alpha
Lone Wolf Going Solo
496
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 15:25:00 -
[14] - Quote
I honestly can't see how the Art team will be the bottleneck... in fact the "Art Concept" is normally finish, far before the game development even starts. If anything i will say that is the "Graphics Department " that is slowing things down. Things like Modeling, Textures, and animation. We don't even have WATER in any maps yet .. and that is such a basic thing to do. |
Kitten Empress
Ametat Security Amarr Empire
535
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 15:30:00 -
[15] - Quote
Panther Alpha wrote:I honestly can't see how the Art team will be the bottleneck... in fact the "Art Concept" is normally finish, far before the game development even starts. If anything i will say that is the "Graphics Department " that is slowing things down. Things like Modeling, Textures, and animation. We don't even have WATER in any maps yet .. and that is such a basic thing to do. The art team does all of those ^_^ |
Rogatien Merc
Ill Omens EoN.
68
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 15:32:00 -
[16] - Quote
Guildo Crow wrote:Just thought I'd throw in some input. This is not meant to be malicious in anyway. so please don't feel that it is.
Being a commercial artist myself, throwing more people at any part of the creative process does not make it go faster. In fact, it will slow the process down. (at first)
This mindset is one of the most aggravating parts of the industry because every client seems to think that way.
Some examples:
If you hire a new artist for your concept team, he/she will not be consistent with the rest of the team. This will lead to multiple rounds of revisions and frustration.
The old team has been painting/drawing/modelling in the same style for months and have developed short hands.
They've got libraries of their own assets that they can reuse and an understanding of their own work files so they can effectively hit their deadlines. (try wading through someone else's work file... yuck)
A new artist will not be able to utilize these as efficiently until he/she spends enough time settling into the creative atmosphere.
THE best thing to do is to just give these guys some time. Time is the only thing that creates a good product. Not more people.
anyhow. Just my experienced point of view. You are welcome to disagree.
I suggest patience.
"Hey guys, make ten new maps!!!!!"
1 guy: "One map, two map, three map, four...."
10 guys: "Done!"
... believe it or not, I get what you are saying. But at some point those new employees are old employees who get more **** done. |
Daxxis KANNAH
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
81
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 15:43:00 -
[17] - Quote
Thing is - we dont even care that much about textures and water and animation. We have "given up the ghost" on all of that in that this is a free PS3 game. Even the fact that all the weapons in a line look the same is still being overlooked by many.
No assassination animation - who cares, logi suits look like assault suits - whatever
But when you craft a game that you can be who you want and build your character to your desire and the starting points for some of those arent even an option at launch. To me that is unacceptable. You cant seriously utter AAA when you know that basic features are missing.
I dont want to rant too much but I would hope they understand that if they really want to grow the game then they cant expect the public to buy the CCP reputation and just say this is great. Now if they are just interested in creating a sandbox for EVE-ites, then be well... soon come mon - no worries.
I know many that have been here from the start arent putting too much faith in 1.2 but I will give them the benefit of that plus 2-3 of these rapid updates to see if they understand that this is a different arena |
Panther Alpha
Lone Wolf Going Solo
496
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 15:44:00 -
[18] - Quote
Kitten Empress wrote:Panther Alpha wrote:I honestly can't see how the Art team will be the bottleneck... in fact the "Art Concept" is normally finish, far before the game development even starts. If anything i will say that is the "Graphics Department " that is slowing things down. Things like Modeling, Textures, and animation. We don't even have WATER in any maps yet .. and that is such a basic thing to do. The art team does all of those ^_^
I just don't get it ...they seen to be struggling with just doing basic square models..just look at the maps carefully, and you'll see that everything is a Square with round angles on it... god knows what will happen if they try to Design a TREE. Obviously everything in EvE is a square model.. so they have little or not experience with anything else. |
Guildo Crow
PROJECT 86 U
42
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 15:48:00 -
[19] - Quote
Daxxis KANNAH wrote:@ Guildo Crow - in your experience , should it take more than a year to create 12 models ie the racial dropsuits
Honestly. I think they are already done as far as the concept and design phase goes. Modelling, Texturing, Rigging, who knows where they are at.
Think about it this way, Wall-E took 1 1/2 years to build. Yes it's a much more complicated model, yes it's feature level, and yes the rig is absolutely amazing. But i'm just saying quality takes time.
It takes me about a month to model a character from start to finish. Remember it's not just boom model finished. There are revisions, and changes. Sometimes changes so big you have to restart. Revisions can sometimes take more time than the actual task itself. Also you are rarely working on one thing at a time as well.
To be honest, it does seem like 1 year for 12 models maybe a little bit too long, i'd say 8 or 9 months comfortably to get them done right, from start to finish. |
Ryder Azorria
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
402
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 15:50:00 -
[20] - Quote
Daxxis KANNAH wrote:@ Guildo Crow - in your experience , should it take more than a year to create 12 models ie the racial dropsuits It does when the artists are working on other stuff too. |
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Guildo Crow
PROJECT 86 U
43
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 15:57:00 -
[21] - Quote
Haha, for the person interested in how they model trees
http://www.speedtree.com/
As far as I am aware almost everyone and their mothers use this beast of an app.
i would not be surprised if the Art team uses a version of this to supplement their assets. |
Panther Alpha
Lone Wolf Going Solo
496
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 16:03:00 -
[22] - Quote
Guildo Crow wrote:Haha, for the person interested in how they model trees http://www.speedtree.com/As far as I am aware almost everyone and their mothers use this beast of an app. i would not be surprised if the Art team uses a version of this to supplement their assets.
So where the hell are the trees ? ..and vegetation for that matter...You know, just a Tree here and there, and some flowers, will make the game feel completely different.... and WATER... don't forget the WATER. |
Guildo Crow
PROJECT 86 U
43
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 16:09:00 -
[23] - Quote
Hardware limitations perhaps? limitations in the code? I don't know. That's a good question actually.
I wonder if it has anything to do with how their modular system works. It's possible that randomly generating a bunch of trees could cause issues with players and the environment.
From what it seems they are trying to develop some procedural system, so they can populate hundreds of planets with a variety of layouts. A hard task to do even without vegetation.
But yeah, I don't know. I would be interested in finding out though. |
fenrir storm
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
342
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 16:15:00 -
[24] - Quote
steadyhand amarr wrote: instead slows it down ruins quality
Fits right in with the game as a whole then. |
Daxxis KANNAH
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
82
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 16:33:00 -
[25] - Quote
Ryder Azorria wrote:Daxxis KANNAH wrote:@ Guildo Crow - in your experience , should it take more than a year to create 12 models ie the racial dropsuits It does when the artists are working on other stuff too.
Well that is time management and prioritizing - Lead Designer / developer whatever his/their titles are. And they shouldnt be blaming the art dept
You would think that all work on jets, these new installations would be left till after basics were in but then again maybe 5/14 wasnt supposed to be the real launch date.
I have to say though that coming from other games with models that have customization already built in, the content delivery is painstakingly long and if Art Dept is an issue then they have to streamline what they want to get out and what is possible to deliver.
On the other assets - yes most likely platform is the issue. Personally I dont think many will care that much about making the world alive if they have their desired avatars in and customisable. |
DeadlyAztec11
One-Armed Bandits Unclaimed.
445
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 16:52:00 -
[26] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:Kitten Empress wrote:You say that the art team is the biggest bottleneck for anything new. Then why not increase the staff in the art team to reduce the bottleneck? That's the reason we still don't have all of the racial dropsuits. Or that we don't have jets. And many other things like that. Well, I gotta call you on Fighters, because I'm telling you right now: flying those in our current redlines would SUCK. Funny thing is that the game design team is apparently the bottleneck for weapon customization, because we had a post in IRC a while back from one of the art guys saying the visual assets are already finished. It seems the teams aren't cooperating too well on what they're releasing and when.
The CCP devs are either Minmatar tribes or Caldari corporations |
DeadlyAztec11
One-Armed Bandits Unclaimed.
445
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 17:01:00 -
[27] - Quote
Daxxis KANNAH wrote:@ Guildo Crow - in your experience , should it take more than a year to create 12 models ie the racial dropsuits
The issue is making them look good.
They probably make hundreds of concept art for the suits they make (not to mention vehicles). Out of all of these they will trash the stupid stuff, mix and match stuff like helmets/goves/armor/backpacks of the good looking one and than send what they think looks good to their bosses. If there bosses do not like it, they probably either have to mix and match again or start the entire process over. I do not envy these people's job, they probably like it, though, must get frustrating to be told that what they made sucks and to make something that looks better.
After that, they have to actually make a playable model. More straightforward, though takes time. After that it needs to be tested and given it's statistics... Even more time.
Personally, I do not mind waiting for a good looking suit, versus something that will look atrocious. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
206
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 17:07:00 -
[28] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:After that, they have to actually make a playable model. More straightforward, though takes time. After that it needs to be tested and given it's statistics... Even more time.
Already has statistics, waiting on the models to be completed. Personally I wouldnt mind if they made Placehoders that had absolutely no features. Just add the suits and apply the Models to them when completed. |
Daxxis KANNAH
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
87
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 18:49:00 -
[29] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:Daxxis KANNAH wrote:@ Guildo Crow - in your experience , should it take more than a year to create 12 models ie the racial dropsuits The issue is making them look good.
Good is in the eye of the beholder.
You cant make a perfect videogame, something CCP and all of their followers need to understand. Deadlines come up and at some point you have to deliver.
We all have seen the concept art so put something out and if you arent happy with it then change them in a few months/years time in an expansion.
They also have the leaders of the project to make final say on which models are used. If they cant do that they should not be overseeing the project. These are basics of production.
Stop making excuses for them. |
Cyrius Li-Moody
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
142
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 19:51:00 -
[30] - Quote
So, does anyone here have real world experience with asset creation for production? |
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