I personally think the SMG and maybe even the Scrambler Pistol could use a freaking buff. I have been running around for like two or three days, with an Advanced SMG, and even the freaking MILITIA assault rifle beats me every time. I sit here and want to know who's idea it was to make an SMG even more useless than the militia assault rifle, because they need to be slapped. If I want to run around with an SMG, I shouldn't need a 'better' primary. I should be able to use my SMG as my primary and not have to worry about whether the next Militia Assault rifle will kill me or if I will have to unload half a clip into them before they even know whats going on so that I have a freaking chance of killing them!

"But the SMG has a higher rate of fire, a bigger clip size, and more max ammo! It doesn't need more damage!" Well, when its lethal range is 5 feet, yeah... it kind of does.

Now that I've ranted, you may proceed with the hating. You may begin to call me a noob, insult my intelligence, say you know everything about the game of Dust 516 and I know nothing.

No, go ahead, seriously. I do not mind. I have heard it all before. I speak my mind, the rest of the community insults me and then we move on with our lives. This will very likely be the exact same.

I personally think the SMG and maybe even the Scrambler Pistol could use a freaking buff. I have been running around for like two or three days, with an Advanced SMG, and even the freaking MILITIA assault rifle beats me every time. I sit here and want to know who's idea it was to make an SMG even more useless than the militia assault rifle, because they need to be slapped. If I want to run around with an SMG, I shouldn't need a 'better' primary. I should be able to use my SMG as my primary and not have to worry about whether the next Militia Assault rifle will kill me or if I will have to unload half a clip into them before they even know whats going on so that I have a freaking chance of killing them!

"But the SMG has a higher rate of fire, a bigger clip size, and more max ammo! It doesn't need more damage!" Well, when its lethal range is 5 feet, yeah... it kind of does.

Now that I've ranted, you may proceed with the hating. You may begin to call me a noob, insult my intelligence, say you know everything about the game of Dust 516 and I know nothing.

No, go ahead, seriously. I do not mind. I have heard it all before. I speak my mind, the rest of the community insults me and then we move on with our lives. This will very likely be the exact same.

I personally think the SMG and maybe even the Scrambler Pistol could use a freaking buff. I have been running around for like two or three days, with an Advanced SMG, and even the freaking MILITIA assault rifle beats me every time. I sit here and want to know who's idea it was to make an SMG even more useless than the militia assault rifle, because they need to be slapped. If I want to run around with an SMG, I shouldn't need a 'better' primary. I should be able to use my SMG as my primary and not have to worry about whether the next Militia Assault rifle will kill me or if I will have to unload half a clip into them before they even know whats going on so that I have a freaking chance of killing them!

"But the SMG has a higher rate of fire, a bigger clip size, and more max ammo! It doesn't need more damage!" Well, when its lethal range is 5 feet, yeah... it kind of does.

Now that I've ranted, you may proceed with the hating. You may begin to call me a noob, insult my intelligence, say you know everything about the game of Dust 516 and I know nothing.

No, go ahead, seriously. I do not mind. I have heard it all before. I speak my mind, the rest of the community insults me and then we move on with our lives. This will very likely be the exact same.

Now that I've ranted, you may proceed with the hating. You may begin to call me a noob, insult my intelligence, say you know everything about the game of Dust 516 and I know nothing.

Ha! Seriously? You've been using them a few days and think they need a buff? I've used only a pistol and SMG as my sole weapons for the past 2 months and there's zero wrong with them. Use the scrambler for a bit of range and the SMG for close encounters or when you've got the shields down.

Keep in mind that they are sidearms and don't have great range. Take your time with the pistol to maximise your chance of getting the headshot. Jump and strafe all over the place when using the SMG and consider speccing up to the assault variants. Speccing up the pistol is a huge help as well because you get the extra rounds in the clip.

Remember that as they are sidearms, they take up a lot less CPU/PG than light or heavy weapons, so you've got a lot more fitting room for modules.

...maybe even the Scrambler Pistol could use a freaking buff.

Well, the SMG was designed to be a backup weapon, y'know, a sidearm....
This ain't CoD where SMGs are top tier primary weapons.

Ha! Seriously? You've been using them a few days and think they need a buff? I've used only a pistol and SMG as my sole weapons for the past 2 months and there's zero wrong with them. Use the scrambler for a bit of range and the SMG for close encounters or when you've got the shields down.

Keep in mind that they are sidearms and don't have great range. Take your time with the pistol to maximise your chance of getting the headshot. Jump and strafe all over the place when using the SMG and consider speccing up to the assault variants. Speccing up the pistol is a huge help as well because you get the extra rounds in the clip.

Remember that as they are sidearms, they take up a lot less CPU/PG than light or heavy weapons, so you've got a lot more fitting room for modules.

This is such bull****. COMPLETE bull****. You clearly have never used an SMG, do not get the point of SMG's, and know nothing of the way of the scout.

If sidearms weren't designed to be mained, CCP would not have developed multiple fits you can buy for aurum that use sdearms and nothing else.

The mercenary pack features a scout with an SMG. One of the premade fits you can buy is a scout with just a pistol. CCP designed these fits themselves. You SHOULD be able to use an SMG and do just fine, but compared to how little damage they do, how short their range is, how weak the class is that would even like to use the weapon - it all adds up to make the SMG a complete waste of SP. The only time I see people use it is as a sidearm for their bigger, better weapon.

If the SMG wasn't designed to be mained THEN WHY THE HELL DOES IT TAKE SO MUSH CPU TO HOLD THE PROTOTYPE SMG'S?

Every weapon in this game is designed to be mained, if used correctly, but by using the SMG in the "correct" fashion the developers want you to use it - it's just to unfeasible .

in all honesty, smg's are working as intended. a corp mate of mine runs around with a proto swarm at prof. 4 and an m209 assault smg at prof.4 with sharpshooter 5 and he WRECKS people. its like any other weapon, gotta really skill into it to make it shine.

STFU (Skill the **** up)

The damage they do against armor is cool and this is effective against heavies but what isn't effective against them at this stage? In anycase grenades and flaylock would kill the heavy or gallente faster.

And also why the high fittings? it's not as good as the flaylock but is harder to fit. Are the fitting costs higher because it's physically bigger? In chromosome they costs as much isk as ARS. It is like ccp thinks smgs are far more powerful than they even have potential of being and set up all these blocks to make you spec so much into it to even fit proto smgs..and then they release flaylocks ? None of it makes sense to me. What is the point of it having a skill tree at all if the toxin is basically all you need

dude, i use smg as a primary [and unless you wanna count spammimg grenades as a sidearm, i dont use one] and i'm doing just fine. learn to use it, learn to love it.

i wouldn't mind the buff tho, but this would just make it op

It seems you are the one that clearly has not used an SMG or understands their role
Rapid fire, large clip size, generous coverage within its range, a damage type that tears up armor like no ones business

The SMG is clearly a sidearm meant to deal a finishing blow on an enemy after your primary has run dry/is not at optimal range/is weak against armor
I run the basic Assault - Medic set up when Im just playing to gather more ISK and I have to tell you so many of kills play out the same way, using the AR to eat up the enemies shield and then swapping over to the SMG for the finishing blows
Hell Ive gone toe to toe with heavies playing that way and won since the SMG cuts through armor like butter and you say they do little damage

BTW: Got my Ishukone today, so be afraid. Very afraid.

You answered your own question.
These are sidearms.
SIDEARMS.
They're not meant to be your primary weapon system.

Then why can you put sidearms in a light weapon slot, and why are dual flaylocks on a Minmatar assault or dual SMGs on a scout so godlike?

FWIW they removed the (rather large) headshot damage bonus with the scrambler pistols at some point in a stealth nerf. I believe it was when uprising launched. Could've been 1.1.

It used to be 450% damage out to 18m for a headshot. Now it's 110% bonus (if memory serves).

Means I can't spec into assault scrambler pistols and dual wield them very easily anymore. = /

Apparenlty the Flaylock is the only sidearm that's supposed to be used as a real weapon.

Either way though, when specc'd into smg's are VERY dangerous weapons. Insane fire rate means if you get the damage up (and the enemies' shields down) you'll kill just about anyone.

I (may end up) go(ing) Amarr assault, AScR and SMG... with the complex damage mods being for the smg. Because they rock the socks.

@Asher Night - You're an angry one aren't you? No need to be so hostile towards people having a discussion.

At the end of the day the SMG and the pistol are both sidearms. Yes, they can be mained but unless you're really good with them you're not going to get anywhere near the same kill count as light weapons. If you want them to be able to stand up against light weapons like the AR, they're going to need to be upgraded to light weapon fitting requirements (i.e. CPU and PG).

1) It really doesn't matter what you think the SMG should be like compared to other games or real life; it's not designed to be like that in this game. It is what it is and 2 used in a certain way and in the right hands, it's a great weapon that doesn't need changing.

It also makes sense that a single shot pistol should have a longer effective range than a fully automatic weapon with an extreme rate of fire. I look forward to your apparently well thought out definitive post on this matter.

It's how it's supposed to be because it is defined as a sidearm in this game. Nothing says it better than that. It's a sidearm, which means it is not supposed to be as effective as a light weapon but uses up less CPU/PG and can be carried alongside any other weapon. In other games and real life the SMG might be as you describe but that is irrelevant to dust because CCP have made SMGs a different kind of weapon.

And lots and lots of people use the SMG as a sidearm because it is great as a weapon to switch to in a hurry when your main needs reloading. All those weapons you've listed are light or heavy weapons and have far greater CPU/PG usage than the SMG and can't be fitted in a sidearm slot, so it's not a valid comparison. I'll say again, if you want the SMG to compete with light/heavy weapons, you're going to have to increase everything, including the CPU/PG.

It would be a problem if you were using it as intended and it didn't perform but that's not the case. As I stated previously, I use the SMG and pistol exclusively and do very well with them.

Finally, I'm glad you kicked butt with the SMG in MAG but keep in mind that this is not MAG and is a completely separate game with it's own intricacies and attributes.

You STILL did not tell me what you are basing your opinion off of. I'm sure as well as I did in MAG, you've never done anything like that ever. In every FPS I have at least a 2 to 1 KDR, except Dust. Resistance 1, Resistance 2, Resistance 3, two accounts on MAG (actually three but I stopped using the very first one), Battlefield 3 - yeah, I seriously doubt the problem is with me.

The SMG needs to sit somewhere between the AR and the pistol. You mentioned sidearms, but what you didn't mention is how every sidearm stomps the SMG as it is. I am a scout in every game, so if I can't use the SMG, I'll use wither the pistol or knife. Since it takes so long to get skills in this game, I'm maining the knife, and I have to say, I can't remember a single scout that got the best of me with the SMG --- and I am bringing a knife to a gunfight.

I'm fine with the SMG not being the best at anything, but right now it's not even good at anything. I love FPS's Ilove the scout class, I always play it, and I can honestly say, the scout class in this game takes way more effort to pull off than any other FPS I have ever played in my life. I am also calling into question what you consider "quite well". If you don't have a KDR of at least 2 to 1, then your opinions just aren't as valid. Sorry, that's just how it is. Once you prove you can take on 2 people, then you opinion will be worth hearing on making weapon decisions. Do you have a 2 to 1 KDR and don't drive vehicles?

As many has stated, the smg is good at close range, but it has to be close. The range on that thing sucks. It used to be able to be have okay range with the old sharpshooting, but now that's in the past. All of the sidearms have their strong points, but they tend to be very situational and you have to create that situation.

I don't know what game you've been playing but I still get 450% headshot damage with my scrambler and other people have been saying the same. That wasn't changed at all ever.