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Soldiersaint
Deepspace Digital
99
|
Posted - 2013.07.12 16:20:00 -
[61] - Quote
I-Shayz-I wrote:Soldiersaint wrote: Heres an even better idea for repair tool...just make it so the only time you get points is when your teammate is hurt by an enemy.any other forms of damage wont count.
Unfortunately, this would be a rather difficult thing to implement in the game. It's not that we haven't thought of it, it's that we know what the limits are of the developers. Besides, how would this fix the repair tool? The way it needs to be fixed is to make it give you points no matter how much health you are healing. The problem is we don't want players to abuse this mechanic by not having to participate in battle. Getting a kill, or an assist, or even guardian points should be easy to register in the game's code. Their code also includes the timer and restrictions for the repair tool. All they would need to do is set it up so that when a player gets one of these point bonuses, the timer resets and the player is allowed to get more bonuses again. The problem with the timer is that it stops you from earning points once you have it a cap. This cap means that for a short period of time, using the repair tool is worthless and there's nothing you can do about it. Players aren't restricted from getting points from kills, yet we have to suffer because it's possible for us to earn points outside of battle. By adding in this fix, we get more points by staying in battle and helping our team. logis should try to avoid combat after all they are what keeps a team alive......this would completely change the logi set up and style play of some people. im sure im not the only one who plays like this. it would really suck if they did this because now we are forced to play in a way that we are trying to avoid. i love to heal people way more than i do shooting at people. thats why i always play medic in almost every mmo and shooter. because we are not forced to go for kills.if they do this we would be forced to go for kills. i might as well put a repair tool on an assault suit.*sigh* this is just my opinion though..nothing more.please reply back i would like to hear more about your ideas! |
Terry Webber
Turalyon Plus
233
|
Posted - 2013.07.12 16:21:00 -
[62] - Quote
Great idea, I-Shayz-I! +1 |
M3DIC 2U
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
76
|
Posted - 2013.07.12 17:58:00 -
[63] - Quote
I agree with your statement, one should be dual classed and provide fire as well as heal. My comment was more in regards to the "dedicated healer" option some seemed to outline above who's primary weapon would be the repper and then use a scrambler pistol or something to free as much CPU/PG as possible for other things. IMHO, not the best viable option, nor one that should reap the same rewards as your 17/2 outing with heals. So, no, a PURE support player shouldn't be able to gain the 3-4k. A dual kill/heal logi most definitely should be able to gain those numbers though.
I like the balance that exists because I feel a need to work on my gun game and try to get some positive KDR to boost the WP outing. In Chromosome and even in the closed beta, I could run a full BPO Sever loadout and gain +3k WP with zero kills. I didn't even really try to get kills because why bother, let the heavy HMG cannon take him out, I'll be the annoying mosquito. This was the reason for the heals nerf and anti-logi rage that caused it. You had the proto guy gaining 32-0 not being top of the leaderboard because I was a healing machine on said proto-butt. |
I-Shayz-I
ZionTCD
396
|
Posted - 2013.07.12 19:46:00 -
[64] - Quote
Soldiersaint wrote:logis should try to avoid combat after all they are what keeps a team alive...if they do this we would be forced to go for kills. i might as well put a repair tool on an assault suit.
I believe you're missing my point here...
This fix would allow someone who just wants to repair people all day the advantage of not having to kill players in order to actually score some massive amounts of wp for the team. Let me explain.
Currently, If you run a match with just the repair tool and other equipment to help keep players alive, the maximum amount of wp you could get is anywhere from 1k-1.5k wp. This is because you don't get any bonuses after you hit the imaginary cap for the repair tool. After the cooldown, you can then continue to earn wp, but the time it takes for the cooldown is too long and restricts us way too much.
My idea makes it so that if you get a guardian bonus, it ends the cooldown cycle immediately and resets any progress towards your invisible bonus cap.
A guardian bonus is when the person who you're repairing gets a kill. So as long as you keep your repair tool on the slayers, you can continue to get bonuses infinitely as long as they keep getting kills. ____________________
The other way my solution helps is that whenever you get a kill assist or a kill, the timer/cooldown resets. This way, it's proof that you are indeed in a combat situation.
As a logistics player myself with over 15 mil sp, I've found that the best way to support your team as a logistics is to be able to distract and help kill the enemy encounters, THEN heal and replenish afterwards. However, this isn't everyone's playstyle, so that's why I suggested kills, kill assists and guardian bonuses should reset the timer.
Either way, whether you want to keep your repair tool on a player, or help the team in firefights, everyone wins. ____________________
UPDATE:
What do you think of the timer resetting when you get a REVIVE BONUS as well? (Say, if the perosn you already revived dies again and you try to go revive him again, you wouldn't get the revive bonus, therefore not get a reset on the timer. This would help prevent farming the bodies every time they died i.e. revive, repair, let them die, repeat) That way dedicated logistics would never have to pull out their weapon at all! |
I-Shayz-I
ZionTCD
403
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 12:56:00 -
[65] - Quote
This little light of mine
I'm gonna let it shine. |
Soldiersaint
Deepspace Digital
170
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 13:47:00 -
[66] - Quote
I-Shayz-I wrote:Soldiersaint wrote:logis should try to avoid combat after all they are what keeps a team alive...if they do this we would be forced to go for kills. i might as well put a repair tool on an assault suit. I believe you're missing my point here... This fix would allow someone who just wants to repair people all day the advantage of not having to kill players in order to actually score some massive amounts of wp for the team. Let me explain. Currently, If you run a match with just the repair tool and other equipment to help keep players alive, the maximum amount of wp you could get is anywhere from 1k-1.5k wp. This is because you don't get any bonuses after you hit the imaginary cap for the repair tool. After the cooldown, you can then continue to earn wp, but the time it takes for the cooldown is too long and restricts us way too much. My idea makes it so that if you get a guardian bonus, it ends the cooldown cycle immediately and resets any progress towards your invisible bonus cap. A guardian bonus is when the person who you're repairing gets a kill. So as long as you keep your repair tool on the slayers, you can continue to get bonuses infinitely as long as they keep getting kills. ____________________ The other way my solution helps is that whenever you get a kill assist or a kill, the timer/cooldown resets. This way, it's proof that you are indeed in a combat situation. As a logistics player myself with over 15 mil sp, I've found that the best way to support your team as a logistics is to be able to distract and help kill the enemy encounters, THEN heal and replenish afterwards. However, this isn't everyone's playstyle, so that's why I suggested kills, kill assists and guardian bonuses should reset the timer. Either way, whether you want to keep your repair tool on a player, or help the team in firefights, everyone wins. ____________________ UPDATE: What do you think of the timer resetting when you get a REVIVE BONUS as well? (Say, if the perosn you already revived dies again and you try to go revive him again, you wouldn't get the revive bonus, therefore not get a reset on the timer. This would help prevent farming the bodies every time they died i.e. revive, repair, let them die, repeat) That way dedicated logistics would never have to pull out their weapon at all! everything you said makes perfect sense.....im just to stuck up on avoiding combat ...but this idea is perfect.....you sir get a +1 ....sorry it took so long for me to grasp your idea |
Tallen Ellecon
KILL-EM-QUICK rise of legion
249
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 14:44:00 -
[67] - Quote
+1
Guardian bonus reset is a brilliant idea. |
I-Shayz-I
Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic
408
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 17:14:00 -
[68] - Quote
Let's get this suggestion to 50 likes! |
Bettie Boop 2100190003
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. League of Infamy
47
|
Posted - 2013.07.16 09:32:00 -
[69] - Quote
I really like the idea of a reset timer on needles, no more nubs picking people up in the sights of the sniper who just one-shot them just so to be picked up again and again and again. (Though it is a great way to screw with some ones KDR)
Most of the equipment already has a built in reset timer of some sort so adding it to these two tools would be an excellent start. |
I-Shayz-I
Not Guilty EoN.
413
|
Posted - 2013.07.16 11:38:00 -
[70] - Quote
Bettie Boop 2100190003 wrote:I really like the idea of a reset timer on needles, no more nubs picking people up in the sights of the sniper who just one-shot them just so to be picked up again and again and again. (Though it is a great way to screw with some ones KDR ) Most of the equipment already has a built in reset timer of some sort so adding it to these two tools would be an excellent start.
I never proposed said idea?
I simply stated that the nanite injector should reset the timer that prevents you from earning wp from triage bonuses. This way, supporting your team, or providing cover fire, or keeping the repair tool on your main guys at all times will be the way to keep earning triage bonuses.
Currently, when you revive someone, it gives you 60 wp for the initial pickup, but nothing if the player dies again within a certain timeframe. I don't think this timer should be messed with at all though. |
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M3DIC 2U
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
79
|
Posted - 2013.07.16 17:04:00 -
[71] - Quote
Still liking the counter reset option as it would add to the function of a logi and make them more integral to good squad mechanics. |
I-Shayz-I
Not Guilty EoN.
414
|
Posted - 2013.07.18 15:06:00 -
[72] - Quote
Bumpity bump bump bumpity bump bump |
I-Shayz-I
Not Guilty EoN.
415
|
Posted - 2013.07.19 15:09:00 -
[73] - Quote
Never gonna give Never gonna give
GIVE YOU UP |
Nova Knife
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
1158
|
Posted - 2013.07.19 15:24:00 -
[74] - Quote
The best way to make the repair tool (and 'support players') viable, is to make them attractive to use in a firefight. Right now, there's pretty much no circumstance in high end gameplay where using a repair tool in combat is more useful than actually shooting the enemy with your gun.
There's been a slew of suggestions on how to accomplish this, but that is the premise to making repair tools actually valuable in competitive play. |
Soldiersaint
Deepspace Digital
224
|
Posted - 2013.07.19 17:13:00 -
[75] - Quote
I-Shayz-I wrote:M3DIC 2U wrote: 5. I've gone many games with 0 kills 14 assists and snagged 800-900 WP through heals, hacks, ammo, and spawns. As a support player, I shouldn't be rocking 1.5k-2k and getting my own OB... I should require a squad to gain those numbers.
This is the only point of yours I'm going to disagree on. Any player, no matter what role they are, should be able to get wp unrestricted if they are being an effective player in combat. Back in Chromosome I set a record in Zion for the most wp earned in a match with another player (aside from tanks). This was still while the cap for wp gains was in place. I think I went something like 17/2 with 4186 wp I had a heavy squadded with me that went 63/7 and 3817 wp The primary reason I was able to get that score was because I stuck with my squadmate and kept him healed while getting as many kills as I could. Back then there wasn't random LAV's everywhere, the HMG actually worked, flaylocks didn't exsist, and I didn't have to worry about someone randomly killing me. Recently I was able to get about 3.1k wp in a match by myself doing a similar thing but it was much harder. The key here is that you need to be effective as both a slayer AND a support class if you want to max out your wp gain. Still, players should at least be rewarded substantially if they are able to keep the team healed and alive, even if they aren't the best FPS player. Dust should have this freedom. but a logi is not supposed to be worried about slaying..his main job is to heal and resupply..killing comes second.what about logis like me who are not good at slaying or just dont want slay...it really messes us up. |
Soldiersaint
Deepspace Digital
224
|
Posted - 2013.07.19 17:20:00 -
[76] - Quote
M3DIC 2U wrote:I agree with your statement, one should be dual classed and provide fire as well as heal. My comment was more in regards to the "dedicated healer" option some seemed to outline above who's primary weapon would be the repper and then use a scrambler pistol or something to free as much CPU/PG as possible for other things. IMHO, not the best viable option, nor one that should reap the same rewards as your 17/2 outing with heals. So, no, a PURE support player shouldn't be able to gain the 3-4k. A dual kill/heal logi most definitely should be able to gain those numbers though.
I like the balance that exists because I feel a need to work on my gun game and try to get some positive KDR to boost the WP outing. In Chromosome and even in the closed beta, I could run a full BPO Sever loadout and gain +3k WP with zero kills. I didn't even really try to get kills because why bother, let the heavy HMG cannon take him out, I'll be the annoying mosquito. This was the reason for the heals nerf and anti-logi rage that caused it. You had the proto guy gaining 32-0 not being top of the leaderboard because I was a healing machine on said proto-butt. so wait a person who is keeping his team alive and being a selfless player shouldnt be allowed to score big? why is it that only people who go for kills are allowed to score big? any one can go for kills...only a hand full of us toss that aside because we want to keep our team alive... in every game ive played since i was a kid...the healer or medic always got the most points and leveled up the fastest...thats because instead of being a kill freak we said no my team being alive is more important...now all of a sudden hardcore medics are being spat on....what gives? one day every one is just going to be fed up with this go for kills mentality and stop playing logi...then the kill fiends will know what its like when they get a boot to the face. |
Bettie Boop 2100190003
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. League of Infamy
59
|
Posted - 2013.07.19 22:12:00 -
[77] - Quote
Soldiersaint wrote:but a logi is not supposed to be worried about slaying..his main job is to heal and resupply..killing comes second.what about logis like me who are not good at slaying or just dont want slay...it really messes us up.
Then you my logi friend need to find some other way to play the game. If your gun game is that bad that you dont want to be worried about slaying, thats a problem. This is (at least I think its supposed to be) a First Person Shooter, which means if you cant shoot and kill people you might want to try EVE / RTS / FB games.
Have you considered a Tank or LogiLAV? Im just trying to help you get the most enjoyment out of life with these suggestions! |
I-Shayz-I
Not Guilty EoN.
438
|
Posted - 2013.07.19 23:21:00 -
[78] - Quote
Nova Knife wrote:The best way to make the repair tool (and 'support players') viable, is to make them attractive to use in a firefight. Right now, there's pretty much no circumstance in high end gameplay where using a repair tool in combat is more useful than actually shooting the enemy with your gun.
There's been a slew of suggestions on how to accomplish this, but that is the premise to making repair tools actually valuable in competitive play.
I've run around in corp battles and made a huge difference to the outcome of our battle simply by making sure the heavies stay alive. I really don't think that the repair tool should be a substitute to a weapon in a firefight as it doesn't actually take up a weapon slot (other fps games make the medgun also have a way to do damage, or make it take the place of the main weapon slot)
Sadly, corp battles now are more about contact grenades and flaylocks than actually using any sort of strategic combat methods.
However, pub matches are completely different. I ran with a group of 4 heavies yesterday in front of my core repair tool and they didn't go down easily unless we were all wiped out by someone in a LAV. ______________________
Medics/healers in any game are designed to keep the tanks alive, but there's currently no way to outheal the dps that even a standard assault rifle can dish out.
An interesting idea would be a weapon similar to the mass driver that creates an AOE splash heal that effectively heals groups of players for a large amount of health. Better yet, if there was a way to have the repair tool grant a protection bonus (say 25% damage reduction at proto) it might help with defensive strategies. ______________________
Also, my suggestion wasn't to change the repair tool to be more effective in a firefight. Currently, its role is to heal players outside of battle or when they've retreated to cover.
The fact that the reward system hurts our logistics by restricting them is not okay though. The restriction needs to be changed so that participating in combat actually gives players an opportunity to earn more wp. A tank or sniper isn't restricted by getting kills in the redzone, but our logistics are even in battle. |
Nova Knife
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
1173
|
Posted - 2013.07.20 06:33:00 -
[79] - Quote
[quote=I-Shayz-I] Also, my suggestion wasn't to change the repair tool to be more effective in a firefight. Currently, its role is to heal players outside of battle or when they've retreated to cover. [quote]
In my opinion, this is exactly what's wrong with them. They shouldn't make someone invulnerable... But I used to run a repair tool on my scout suit and basically just heal up anyone around me after a firefight. That's handy, but for the most part... irrelevant. Sure, we could give people more points for using the repair tool, but in the end that wouldn't really accomplish anything. In fact.. I'd say it'd almost hurt a team more than it helps.
I tend to disagree that while the cooldown system is annoying, logistics suits are still among the best (if not the best) ways to earn WP when being used as support. The amount of WP you can get simply from spamming uplinks, nanohives, and healing/reviving people is pretty astounding. I don't think I've ever had a game playing support with less than 1200-1500 WP, even without any kills.
Like I said... I don't think point accrual is the problem. The direct problem is it's relative uselessness in a firefight. However, buffing it is a very slippery slope. It's very, very easy to go from "Someone is slightly harder to kill" and "Someone is damn near invulnerable" when being targeting by a repair tool if it is buffed too much. It does need a buff, though.
Your description matches nearly everyone else's in competitive play; "They're basically only used after a firefight to keep heavies alive" Which is useful, I won't deny... But it diminishes the role of a healing tool. A healer role should be able to viably heal in combat, but it should still come down to the tank's ability to avoid damage in the first place that keeps the both of them alive. If it's more viable for your healer to be doing DPS than healing during the fight itself then something about the healing role needs to be looked at, don't you think? |
I-Shayz-I
Not Guilty EoN.
438
|
Posted - 2013.07.20 10:26:00 -
[80] - Quote
Nova Knife wrote: Your description matches nearly everyone else's in competitive play; "They're basically only used after a firefight to keep heavies alive" Which is useful, I won't deny... But it diminishes the role of a healing tool. A healer role should be able to viably heal in combat, but it should still come down to the tank's ability to avoid damage in the first place that keeps the both of them alive. If it's more viable for your healer to be doing DPS than healing during the fight itself then something about the healing role needs to be looked at, don't you think?
I agree with what you're saying 100%. The repair tool does need to be adjusted at some point, but still...
Logistics need to not be restricted to wp gain. I have mentioned multiple times that if they implemented some sort of solution like mine that they should decrease the amount of wp gained from triage bonuses from 25 to either 15 or 20. This way, you're not going to be making more than you would be now. ____________________
Now to actually reply to your post here...
One of my favorite medic classes of all times was from Resistance 2 co-op. I only WISH that the DEV's would bring some of the mechanics from that game, cause it was simply PERFECT.
In that game, the medic had a medgun that could damage foes and "steal" health from them to collect charges. Firing a charge would release a blast of nanites through the air and explode in a cloud of healing. This allowed the medic to be more of a long range class while still supporting the team. Every class could revive other players, but the medic was able to revive 5 times faster.
The other two playable classes were a HMG heavy class who had a ton of health with a giant shield, and a long range spec ops class with low health who did that most damage but was the only one carrying ammo packs.
The class system relied on each other class in order to have the match be successful. The heavy provided the shield and area denial to keep the squad moving forward, but relied on the medic for healing and the spec ops for ammo for both the shield and the HMG. The Medic had to keep the team alive while relying on the heavy and spec ops to do the damage. The spec ops had to constantly be slaying with the huge amount of damage they did, but relied on the heavy to provide cover and the medic to keep the cover alive. ____________________
The idea here is that these classes were designed to preform specific roles with specific weaknesses that balanced the roles properly.
The repair tool needs to be able to keep someone almost invincible...but for that change to be made there needs to be something else: a chargable, limited capacity of invincibility.
In TF2, the more you heal, the faster you get to using an ability that makes the target you're healing invincible for a little while. In Resistance 2, you earn charges for your medgun that have to be earned back once depleted. In MMO's, you have limited mana that has to be slowly filled back up before you can cast again.
In Dust, a simple solution would be to double or triple the amount of health gained per second while the repair tool is locked on a player, but make it so that you can only use the repair tool for a limited time before you have to let it replenish the amount of stored nanites it has. Maybe nanites can even be gained through nanohives?
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Bettie Boop 2100190003
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. League of Infamy
60
|
Posted - 2013.07.21 01:09:00 -
[81] - Quote
When considering solutions for problems (most of the time) I try and think how hard will they be to implement on a programming level and will the solution cause more problems than what its supposed to be fixing.
That being said, I'm not sure I like the idea of "ammunition" for the repair tool, but I do like the idea of making it so you cannot repair all the time. Giving it something like a capacitor so it depletes when being used, and when you stop using it the gun charges. This way you have a more powerful gun that as medics we must think before just healing every one, there becomes an order of importance.
The down side to doing it this way is that once implemented there will be a myriad of complaints about it being either OP or UP depending on the capacitor size, charge time, and healing rate of each gun. |
I-Shayz-I
Not Guilty EoN.
445
|
Posted - 2013.07.21 07:00:00 -
[82] - Quote
That makes sense, but those ideas are not something that I would like to be implemented. Nova Knife brought up the idea of the repair tool still needing a much larger reworking, but I still would like to focus on the idea of constant rewards while participating in battle for our logistics.
That's all I want. |
XxGhazbaranxX
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
162
|
Posted - 2013.07.23 07:47:00 -
[83] - Quote
makes absolute sense. CCP must add this. + 1 |
ALPHA DECRIPTER
M.E.R.C. Conventional Forces D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
142
|
Posted - 2013.07.23 12:25:00 -
[84] - Quote
I-Shayz-I wrote:
The idea here is that these classes were designed to preform specific roles with specific weaknesses that balanced the roles properly.
The repair tool needs to be able to keep someone almost invincible...but for that change to be made there needs to be something else: a chargable, limited capacity of invincibility.
In TF2, the more you heal, the faster you get to using an ability that makes the target you're healing invincible for a little while. In Resistance 2, you earn charges for your medgun that have to be earned back once depleted. In MMO's, you have limited mana that has to be slowly filled back up before you can cast again.
In Dust, a simple solution would be to double or triple the amount of health gained per second while the repair tool is locked on a player, but make it so that you can only use the repair tool for a limited time before you have to let it replenish the amount of stored nanites it has. Maybe nanites can even be gained through nanohives?
This is... not a bad idea actually DUST is an MMO RPG and a FPS. This idea would help cater to the MMO aspect. The skill tree could effect how fast the nanite regen is or how long until the tool runs empty (RPG). To add to your idea, or piggy back, the rep tool should also deal damage to shields when locking onto an enemy, this would help the tool recharge it's nanites. |
NewOldMan
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
58
|
Posted - 2013.07.23 12:54:00 -
[85] - Quote
Or, can we just remove the WP cap? Nothing else gets the treatment. So why does a staple of a logi build have to?
MAG had it to where friendly fire and fall damage wasn't rewarded exp upon healing someone. This is the way it should be in DUST. If something like this was done for kills, there would be total outrage. |
Jane Craft
Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2013.07.23 14:39:00 -
[86] - Quote
+1 would love to have this for my logo and assault |
TunRa
The Vanguardians
11
|
Posted - 2013.07.23 16:01:00 -
[87] - Quote
Whatever helps the logibro to heal my heavy, or my tank, +1 |
I-Shayz-I
Not Guilty EoN.
457
|
Posted - 2013.07.23 20:26:00 -
[88] - Quote
NewOldMan wrote:Or, can we just remove the WP cap? Nothing else gets the treatment. So why does a staple of a logi build have to?
MAG had it to where friendly fire and fall damage wasn't rewarded exp upon healing someone. This is the way it should be in DUST. If something like this was done for kills, there would be total outrage.
The cap needs to be in place because of what happened when it wasn't there.
People would sit in the MCC damaging themselves and would get around 5-6k wp per match. They'd use those points for orbitals and then get kills from it as well.
We don't want to encourage this, and implementing a system like the one you say was from MAG might be too much work for the developers to immediately put in the game. All I want is a quick and simple fix for right now so that if you're in combat, you keep earning points. |
I-Shayz-I
Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic
458
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 20:04:00 -
[89] - Quote
Don't worry... Be bumpy.
(Don't worry be bumpy!) |
I-Shayz-I
Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic
477
|
Posted - 2013.07.27 09:12:00 -
[90] - Quote
*grab*
Saved your life! |
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