15k dmg seems a bit much, but I will be very happy with a working nav computer for the moronic missles and a higher missle velocity to actually get to a target before the round is over....

oh wait you were being sarcastic -_-

15k dmg seems a bit much, but I will be very happy with a working nav computer for the moronic missles and a higher missle velocity to actually get to a target before the round is over....

oh wait you were being sarcastic -_-

There needs to be real advanced and prototype vehicles so proto AV has a reason to actually exist.

You're dumb. The swarmer didn't do that much damage to you, that's the total amount of damage you took, from ALL sources.

Derp.

Its homing.



Which is EZ mode.

You're dumb. The swarmer didn't do that much damage to you, that's the total amount of damage you took, from ALL sources.

Derp.

Standard AV is UP
However, proto AV is OP

It homes in on QQ



Which is EZ mode with all the crybabies around here.

Does that make plasma cannon the only hard mode?
Forge gun versus most vehicles is like sniping a building and av nades have tracking.

Has CCP said that that's how that screen works? I'll believe it when I see that posted by CCP.

That's how it works, I've had matches where my dropship has dished out over 20k damage and taken over 30k, it's the total damage output/input you have for the entire match from all sources. That said you can easily see the real stupid stuff like RDV's where you end up with over 100k damage in one match.

Standard AV is underpowered? Militia gear does good enough chasing me away due to the damage bonus AV grenades and swarms get to armor.

Sorry but you talk crap,1 volley from wiyrkomi with 4 damage mod do about 2600-2800damage and not 15000

Ive put over 1 million into swarms. I should be able to kill you if you just sit there for 20 seconds trying to kill a cru.... now if your a shield tank im just gonna call in my tank and ram you to death. Also that 15000 thing, not even remotely possible to be a single swarm volley. Thats total damage you have taken in that life. Christ complain about forge guns not us

Has CCP said that that's how that screen works? I'll believe it when I see that posted by CCP.

Hate to tell you but it happened. I saw it myself. That's not the point we are getting at ya scrub

Hate to tell you but it happened. I saw it myself. That's not the point we are getting at ya scrub

Yet no standard Av (except maybe a forge) can OHK a starter fit LAV.

Hate to tell you but it happened. I saw it myself. That's not the point we are getting at ya scrub

it's 15k total damage tht 1 av weapon dealt to u. not from other enemies just from tht 1 said gun. Total damage not from 1 volley.

So you'll believe that a swarm launcher did 15k damage to you until then?

I have a Wiyrkomi Swarm Launcher. With no damage mods/proficiency, it takes two volleys to bring down militia derpships.

I'm not stupid enough to think it's from one volley.

Not to mention how meh swarms are against shield tanks. 4 volleys from two prof 4 swarm launchers guys to your weak spot to kill most decent shield tanks . If you can't run away during that time its not our fault.

Upgrade your reading comprehension. Looks like Bob explained it.

Oh, so you're only stupid enough to think that given an unspecified length of time, a weapon capable of dealing thousands of hitpoints worth of damage should be incapable of reaching fifteen thousand.

I don't run Gunnlogis.

Are you complaining that swarm launchers don't have the same damage bonus against shield vehicles that they do against armor vehicles?

I'm not stupid enough to think it's from one volley.

You're still missing the point of the thread.

Will you be happy when militia swarms can one-shot my Madrugar with > 6700 armor?

Yeah, then you'll be happy.

So is this thread making any point at all

I have proto swarms with proficiency up to 3 and I can't even do that much dmg in one volley. Even if your armor tanked and all my swarms hit your critical spot I can't do that much dmg.

Spkr4theDead is just the biggest whiner in this game. He's not happy unless he's whining about something.

He has made it clear that he doesn't want swarms to do that much damage with ANY number of volleys.

And if you disagree you basically want militia swarms to one shot a Madrugar.

He has made it clear that he doesn't want swarms to do that much damage with ANY number of volleys.

And if you disagree you basically want militia swarms to one shot a Madrugar.

caused the damage to render multiple times adding to the insane damage.

Is that enough for you? Do you want double that? When will vehicles be nerfed enough for you?

Seems simple enough to me...

Its happened.

You got the Tac nerfed, now on to the next target.

The Swarm Launcher.

Like an LAV that runs you over from behind. I never saw it coming.

That's because you're, for lack of a better word, simple.

I love it when tankers pull the "I've spent more ISK and SP" card, as though that automatically entitles you an "I win" button.

Look, I don't know what you experienced, but I was retreating in my Madrugar with all modules offline when someone with a single swarm (that means one shot) killed me. I was at 4000 armor, 100 shields. It seems like an absolutely silly amount of damage.

This is just stringing techie words together.

I love it when tankers pull the "I've spent more ISK and SP" card, as though that automatically entitles you an "I win" button.

LOL If you say so. How is what I said so hard to understand?

"The sky is dark and it's not yet 6pm, therefore it might rain." Is that so hard to understand?

Because me, like a lot of people that have spent the SP necessary to make strong vehicles, believe that the current available AV options are too powerful for the vehicles we have right now. My what, half year's worth of playing is nullified by a guy that just got out of the Battle Academy because someone said to get a suit with a lot of slots on the left side and put a militia swarm launcher on it.

Armor gets the best options with vehicles, but explosive weaponry has a bonus against armor. Shield has a natural passive resistance to explosive weaponry, but because of the powergrid nerf, trying to get strong defenses means going for weaker offense. It's not like that with dropsuits.

Like we've said before. There's access to PRO AV gear, some requiring proficiency. Vehicle drivers have access to "complex" modules and PRO turrets, but with STD hulls.

The problem is that vehicle pilots spend way more ISK and SP to get into a vehicle, that is actually much easier to kill than a regular dropsuit. There's no risk/reward, it's ALL risk.

There's a difference between whinging about not being an I WIN BUTTON (like some people did back 6 months ago, when that is precisely what tanks were) and the perfectly valid complaint that AV has been buffed multiple times while vehicles have been repeatedly nerfed (except LAVs for some reason).

The balance is currently terrible, and non-LAV vehicles aren't any fun to use because they are all paper thin.

I never cared about it. I was laughing like a hyena in a compound while people were shooting me with ARs and throwing locus grenades at my tank.

Because, that's what I use, tanks. And LAVs. I don't care about the ARs.

So if you supposedly have vehicle alts, why don't you see it from that perspective?

So since I logged back onto the game, and checked a Madrugar with one militia armor repper, two militia 180mm plates, and two militia PG extenders, I'm still in the red for PG.

What kind of fit could you possibly have with a new character? And what kind of offense? Because I'm looking at a pretty terrible tank right now.

So since I logged back onto the game, and checked a Madrugar with one militia armor repper, two militia 180mm plates, and two militia PG extenders, I'm still in the red for PG.

What kind of fit could you possibly have with a new character? And what kind of offense? Because I'm looking at a pretty terrible tank right now.

Omg another hater on av dude proto av is underpowered because it takes way to long to kill a standard (madrugar and gunnlogi) hav...

I would love to share it but that's a trade secret. Might post screenshots with fitting specifics cut out if I can do so without giving up the details. It's the tank that was used for the First IMPressions Academy stomping, but they're fully PC capable.

Militia stuff uses more PG and CPU? I remeber watching a video about tanks that the bloke said its best to use standard stuff. Its not that much more expensive and it frees up a ton of PG and CPU.

But I don't drive tanks so...

I know nothing.

My standard Gunnlogi can stand up to standard AV fine. It would take a coordinated squad of standard AV to take me, and that's what it should take for each level: roughly one coordinated squad of an equal 'tech' level. Not some lone wolf with proto forges.

What is the opposing team expected to do if a full squad of tanks rolls out from the enemy team?

My standard Gunnlogi can stand up to standard AV fine. It would take a coordinated squad of standard AV to take me, and that's what it should take for each level: roughly one coordinated squad of an equal 'tech' level. Not some lone wolf with proto forges.

Go AV

The problem is that vehicle pilots spend way more ISK and SP to get into a vehicle, that is actually much easier to kill than a regular dropsuit. There's no risk/reward, it's ALL risk.

I used to use forge guns during Chromosome. [...[
Maybe you're doing it wrong.

The lack of thought put into this response has convinced me that it's pointless to continue to discuss balance with you as you're unable to look beyond your own playstyle.

I used tanks and forge guns in the previous build.

I also don't see why my answer is unsatisfactory to you. I have a militia forge fit. Is that not enough to you? It's still something I remember using very often, but with different visuals now.

If I pull out a tank, someone on the other team could take out an AV fit. It's not my problem if the other team is spec'd out for pubstomping.

What killed you? CBR7? Is that half armor for you? Is that full armor? Need more details.

Do you not see the difference between that and your ridiculous OP?

Let's break this down. You open the thread with:

"Over 15,000 damage from a Wiyrkomi swarm launcher. Is that enough for you? Do you want double that? When will vehicles be nerfed enough for you?"

We can assume from the OP that you are upset with the damage-dealing capacity of the swarm launcher. You believe that some unidentified person wants to increase the damage and ask whether that damage is high enough or whether they want to double that. You ask when vehicles will be nerfed enough for this mysterious, potentially hypothetical person.

People see that and they assume you mean you thought you took that much damage in one shot. They assume this because of common sense. They reason "nobody in their right mind would complain about that much damage over the course of the match" because it's a basic mathematical fact that in a scenario where someone is capable of repeatedly dealing damage, the total damage is going to increase over time. Given that mathematical fact, 15k damage from a weapon capable of inflicting thousands of damage per volley of swarms doesn't seem unreasonable.

You respond by asking "Why should I be defeated so easily?" The obvious answer to that, of course, is that you were defeated by receiving (if we assume the Madrugar you later reference is your tank fit) more than twice the total health of your tank. (That's a weak tank, by the way, I have more HP on my Madrugar on 500k SP alts.)

Some more derping occurs in which it comes to light that you understand that the 15k damage came from more than one volley and are still dissatisfied with it. This is similar to an assault player receiving 2000 hitpoints worth of damage because they kept healing and failing to avoid getting shot, then complaining that it was possible to deal that much damage to them at all.

Then you attempt to define the point of the thread again: "You're still missing the point of the thread. Will you be happy when militia swarms can one-shot my Madrugar with > 6700 armor?"

Nobody has suggested that and you're returning to a discussion about damage per volley, after trying to deny that was the point of the thread. You're also establishing a strawman argument.

Is the point of the thread to establish strawman arguments? It seems so.

"Yeah, then you'll be happy." Oh, yeah. Then you confirm your own nonsense suspicions without receiving any feedback in between because you're a basket case.

Then people make fun of you for a while until you come in and once again assert that the thread made sense despite nobody understanding what the kitten you were blathering about and now we're here.


Is THIS the point of the thread? You think that AV weapons are too powerful for the vehicles we have?

Guess the **** what? "The AV weapons are too powerful for the vehicles we have" is a legitimate way to express that viewpoint and not at all opaque like this absurd thread has been.

What is the opposing team expected to do if a full squad of tanks rolls out from the enemy team?

I believe that in a similar situation in EvE, where there's a free world and anyone can do whatever the hell they want, they'd call in the fleet of their own ships, of a similar size and composition to match the enemy fleet.

Of course, this is Dust and not Eve, so in this theoretical situation, if the team defending against the theoretical six well fit prototanks wasn't able to call down their own six tanks to match 'em, they should get pubstomped. Or, alternatively, focus down one tank at a time, since there would only be ten people on that team to defend the tanks, (oh God I apologize for the commas) you could get just six people on AV to lock onto the nearest tank and let 'em rip. If you have six people who are totally specced to take down a tank focus down a single tank, they should be able to bring it down within two or three volleys, with the third volley being overkill.

Huh. This speculation is interesting. What are your thoughts on this? Also, could you lay out your thoughts on the current balance of tanks/AV that we have right now?

That wyrmkomi thingy, however you spell it. I have 4% natural skill armor resistance. I have 3 25% active armor hardeners (which were, as mentioned, offline), 6073 max armor, 10XX max shields, and a heavy repper which was also offline.

Forge guns can snipe people too, take out neutral structures. Hell a swarm launcher can only shoot at hostile vehicles and emplacements, and once proto tanks are all the rage they will seem UP as hell.

You didn't mention anything you had.

From what Mithridates said:

There is your circle of rock < paper < scissors < rock : AV < infantry < tanks < AV.

In order to make this work, infantry and AV need to have fully specialized suits. Tanks are already specialized. The problem that currently exists is that AVers want to be infantry as well. They don't want to die to infantry so they can kill tanks. Rock doesn't want to lose to paper while beating scissors either, but that's how it goes.

Again, infantry don't want to take the specialized role of AV but at the same time they want to beat tanks and other vehicles. That's the core underlying problem of this AV vs vehicle problem.

Note: infantry classifies anybody without AV capabilities

Fine. This is from before they bumped up vehicle health so some info might be out of date.

Low:
180mm Reinforced Nanofibre Plates (20/928)(20/788.8)
Carapace Armor Hardener (25/5)
Carapace Armor Hardener (25/5)
Carapace Armor Hardener (25/5)
Heavy IG-L Polarized Armor Regenerator (21/896)

High:
F45 Peripheral Damage Control Unit (23/0)

Turrets:
80GJ Railgun (60/900)
AT-1 Cycled Missile Launcher (19/77)
AT-1 Cycled Missile Launcher (19/77)


Now, here are my (relevant) skills:
Vehicle Armor Upgrades III (1.06% Armor resistance)
Vehicle Core Upgrades V (1.05% PG/CPU)
Vehicle Electronics III (1.15% CPU)
Armor Adaptation V (0.85% PG cost of armor hardeners)
Vehicle Armor Plating III (0.91% PG cost of armor plates)

This pushes me into 6073 armor.

Edit: made fairly large changes past the low slots.

Most vehicle SP spent is simply not worth it. The first 700k SP you spend can put you in a tank with 10k eHP. After that, you're adding minuscule layers of defence on top.

Again previous build experience is irrelevant.

but if you're trying to seriously use vehicles you need those extra layers of defense because they're so damn weak. You end up spending huge swathes of SP just trying to eek out enough to hopefully survive a tiny bit longer.

If he's saying that all the other SP isn't worth it, he's doing it wrong. Very wrong

Does that make plasma cannon the only hard mode?
Forge gun versus most vehicles is like sniping a building and av nades have tracking.

No, I wasn't being sarcastic. Forge guns are miles ahead of railguns in terms of damage, and it's far easier for a heavy to hide than a tank. Plus, tanks cost far more in terms of ISK, and is one of the most skill-intensive rolls in Dust. Why should I be defeated so easily?