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Klivve Cussler
S.e.V.e.N. Gentlemen's Agreement
142
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Posted - 2013.05.30 18:34:00 -
[1] - Quote
As I recall, the primary mandate of this initial Pro Tem CPM is to put in place a system for fair and impartial elections for the following Councils. There was a huge amount of discussion on this topic prior to the first CPM being announced, but I have heard nothing since. Can you give us an update on your progress on this issue?
Thanks in advance. |
Abu Stij
Goonfeet
132
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 19:11:00 -
[2] - Quote
There's a discussion on it here:
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=83177&find=unread
Edit
It seems they're main goal for the moment is to get a proper election system in place. It's amazing how late they are with setting it up too. |
Heinrich Jagerblitzen
D3LTA FORC3 Orion Empire
344
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 20:27:00 -
[3] - Quote
Regardless of what our "mandate" is, setting up an election process and an election process alone is a rather pointless exercise all things considered. That is, unless you're in a rush to have elections and select a new council that faces the same uphill battle we do right now getting a working relationship established with CCP, and that can't do much more than any other player can via the forums because they dev's don't magically open a firehose of information to them because they got a white tag overnight. Also, you'd be in a rush to have a council where I won't be involved (since this proto-council is the end of my "political" career) and I'm one of the few individuals (on either the CPM or CCP) involved right now that has extensive experience working systematically and successfully in this capacity.
There is simply no way that they can be our primary focus, even though that process has begun, as Caz demonstrated. Others are free to disagree, of course - but that's how I see it. We're in contact with CCP of course, via Skype and our internal forums - but we still await a good amount of information from the various devs teams, their roadmap, and pending projects - that will take time to open up and to get flowing regularly. This is my personal priority as a CPM member, because frankly I could care less how the next council gets elected if it doesnt have the same level of access to the development process that the current CSM.
The reason it's not as easy as just opening the firehose, like I said, is because this is a different studio than the one that makes EVE and most of these developers have never invited in outsiders to participate in their working process the way that the EVE developers have learned to over a several-year period. If we as a CPM achieve this over the next several months we'll still be making a remarkable progress in a short amount of time compared to the years it took the CSM to get there, but that short amount of time is not 4-5 weeks (our time in office so far). Your patience is both needed and appreciated.
I totally get it - its its fun to go rah rah rah and stamp feet and point fingers and criticize, but if you think that this was all going to magically happen overnight or that the only thing the CPM should be focusing on is how to vote for a second council who would still need to build working relationships from scratch (and without someone on board who had done this before), you were sorely mistaken. |
Kain Spero
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1500
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Posted - 2013.05.30 20:41:00 -
[4] - Quote
While our focus right now is helping to deepen the relationship between the CPM and CCP, it does not change the fact that establishing a player elected council is the main goal that the CPM was appointed for, and it is a task that I will gladly look forward to helping accomplish.
The CPM is also dedicated to doing our best to make sure that the community's voice is heard loud and clear by CCP. |
Furrow33
Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation
15
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Posted - 2013.05.30 20:45:00 -
[5] - Quote
Im glad the cpm is here and look forward to future debates and elections. SOME of us are glad your here and know that the cpm gives us an added voice just like the csm does for eve. |
Klivve Cussler
S.e.V.e.N. Gentlemen's Agreement
146
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Posted - 2013.05.30 21:10:00 -
[6] - Quote
I certainly never thought that setting up elections would be the only thing the CPM is doing. A quick scan of the forums gives lie to that. What I was wondering was what progress had been made if any in the month or so you've been in existence. I was expecting a quick response along the lines of "We're still settling into our roles here, and the only thing we've settled on so far is that elections will be annual. We're considering hosting some town-hall meetings in PS Home over the next several months to flesh out some ideas." or somesuch. I don't want an election yet. It's only been a month!
As a long-time Eve player, I'm quite aware of what player councils can and cannot do. I'm also aware that as the first CPM, you are still feeling your way into the roles and relationships involved. I'm also aware that Dust has a young (age of game, not of player) and volatile user group at the moment, with overlapping demands to buff and nerf everything from TAC assault rifles to the MQ cable package. It's got to be a rough position to be in, and I don't envy you guys (ok, small lie there).
All in all, I'm extremely happy with the CPM's work to date. I'm sure there is a lot going on behind the scenes that we're not aware of, defining access and roles, and so forth. If I were to have a single issue, it would be to criticize (mildly) the over-agressive tone of some of the CPM's responses, even in the face of intense and personal criticism. However, the piranha swarm that is the General Discussion forum has that covered, so no more needs to be said.
Please keep the players informed, in a general way, on the progress you are making in defining the role that this and future CPMs will play in bridging the gap between devs and players. We're all very interested in the process and invested in the outcome. |
Heinrich Jagerblitzen
D3LTA FORC3 Orion Empire
344
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 21:52:00 -
[7] - Quote
Klivve Cussler wrote:Please keep the players informed, in a general way, on the progress you are making in defining the role that this and future CPMs will play in bridging the gap between devs and players. We're all very interested in the process and invested in the outcome.
Will do. I've got a mega-update post I'll throw up over the weekend to catch everyone up on our progress to-date, which will become a weekly occurrence after that. I appreciate everyone's patience during our first tumultuous few weeks but we're settling into a groove, and regular updates will be part of that groove. Keep an eye on this subforum over the next few days especially.
o7
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Klivve Cussler
S.e.V.e.N. Gentlemen's Agreement
146
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 22:25:00 -
[8] - Quote
Heinrich Jagerblitzen wrote:Klivve Cussler wrote:Please keep the players informed, in a general way, on the progress you are making in defining the role that this and future CPMs will play in bridging the gap between devs and players. We're all very interested in the process and invested in the outcome. Will do. I've got a mega-update post I'll throw up over the weekend to catch everyone up on our progress to-date, which will become a weekly occurrence after that. I appreciate everyone's patience during our first tumultuous few weeks but we're settling into a groove, and regular updates will be part of that groove. Keep an eye on this subforum over the next few days especially. o7
Sweet! Looking forward to that. Keep up the good work! |
Abu Stij
Goonfeet
132
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Posted - 2013.05.31 00:05:00 -
[9] - Quote
Heinrich Jagerblitzen wrote:Regardless of what our "mandate" is, setting up an election process and an election process alone is a rather pointless exercise all things considered. That is, unless you're in a rush to have elections and select a new council that faces the same uphill battle we do right now getting a working relationship established with CCP, and that can't do much more than any other player can via the forums because they dev's don't magically open a firehose of information to them because they got a white tag overnight. Also, you'd be in a rush to have a council where I won't be involved (since this proto-council is the end of my "political" career) and I'm one of the few individuals (on either the CPM or CCP) involved right now that has extensive experience working systematically and successfully in this capacity. There is simply no way that elections can be our primary focus, even though that process has begun, as Caz demonstrated. Others are free to disagree, of course - but that's how I see it. We're in contact with CCP of course, via Skype and our internal forums - but we still await a good amount of information from the various devs teams, their roadmap, and pending projects - that will take time to open up and to get flowing regularly. This is my personal priority as a CPM member, because frankly I could care less how the next council gets elected if it doesnt have the same level of access to the development process that the current CSM. It would merely be a democratically-selected feel-good club. The reason it's not easy to achieve this by just opening the firehose of information is because this is a different studio than the one that makes EVE and most of these developers have never invited in outsiders to participate in their working process the way that the EVE developers have learned to over a several-year period. If we as a CPM achieve this over the next several months we'll still be making a remarkable progress in a short amount of time compared to the years it took the CSM to get there, but that short amount of time is not 4-5 weeks (our time in office so far). Your patience is both needed and appreciated. I totally get it - in the meantime everyone's having fun going rah rah rah and stamping feet and pointing fingers and criticizing, but if you think that this was all going to magically happen overnight or that the only thing the CPM should be focusing on is how to vote for a second council who would still need to build working relationships from scratch (and without someone on board who had done this before), you were sorely mistaken.
You couldn't tell the sarcasm in my voice Hans? I'm shocked you took what a Goon said at face value and disappointed you took that with any seriousness.
As for the elections, yes they're semi-secondary but they're also a key component as to why you, and the rest of CPM0, were put together.
I never said it was easy either, just that this seems to have been thought out before CPM0 was arranged, and since then its been fairly silent on that front other than "we're sort of working on it, but there's other stuff going on." |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
4801
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Posted - 2013.05.31 07:45:00 -
[10] - Quote
As other's said it does no good to have an election if the next CPM winds up as powerless as we did when we started. There is a lot of frame work to go on. CCP is pretty confident on a voting system of their own but the CPM will still like to discuss it with them. |
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Heinrich Jagerblitzen
D3LTA FORC3 Orion Empire
345
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 08:08:00 -
[11] - Quote
Abu Stij wrote:You couldn't tell the sarcasm in my voice Hans? I'm shocked you took what a Goon said at face value and disappointed you took that with any seriousness.
It's all good.
Those that have watched me post long enough know the pattern - I often reply seriously even to those that are joking if there's a sufficient side benefit from others hearing the long response.
...And you know damn well there are enough people out there who DO feel that way, they're the type you were mocking in the first place. Besides, if I was truly upset I would have used the and not the |
Abu Stij
Goonfeet
133
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Posted - 2013.06.01 13:39:00 -
[12] - Quote
Heinrich Jagerblitzen wrote:It's all good. Those that have watched me post long enough know the pattern - I often reply seriously even to those that are joking if there's a sufficient side benefit from others hearing the long response. ...And you know damn well there are enough people out there who DO feel that way, they're the type you were mocking in the first place. Besides, if I was truly upset I would have used the and not the
True, I honestly think you are one of the more useful guys on the CPM given your background with the CSM.
I do suggest you read the linked thread above as there are some very valid and very well argued points to why certain systems for the election are not helpful and more of a hinderance to players and some good ideas as to what system should be best. |
Fiddlestaxp
TeamPlayers EoN.
72
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 19:27:00 -
[13] - Quote
Posting fro my phone so I'll be brief.
You are saying that elections are delayed because you need a working legitimate relationship with ccp. This is half of your job. You are forsaking the other half to try to achieve this. You will never have a legitimate relationship with the player base without elections. You are wasting time. Iws and Jenza are never going to survive an election. Cut the sunk cost BS and get to work on something that might pan out
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Vethosis
Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy
74
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Posted - 2013.06.04 21:13:00 -
[14] - Quote
Kain Spero wrote:While our focus right now is helping to deepen the relationship between the CPM and CCP, it does not change the fact that establishing a player elected council is the main goal that the CPM was appointed for, and it is a task that I will gladly look forward to helping accomplish.
The CPM is also dedicated to doing our best to make sure that the community's voice is heard loud and clear by CCP.
you also suck at hosting tournaments |
Heinrich Jagerblitzen
D3LTA FORC3 Orion Empire
367
|
Posted - 2013.06.07 16:24:00 -
[15] - Quote
Klivve Cussler wrote: Please keep the players informed, in a general way, on the progress you are making in defining the role that this and future CPMs will play in bridging the gap between devs and players. We're all very interested in the process and invested in the outcome.
As requested and promised. |
Heinrich Jagerblitzen
D3LTA FORC3 Orion Empire
368
|
Posted - 2013.06.07 16:37:00 -
[16] - Quote
Fiddlestaxp wrote: You are saying that elections are delayed because you need a working legitimate relationship with ccp.
Wrong. CCP is the one to decide when we have elections, and they have revealed no such timetable. In the meantime we can continue to discuss the best way to conduct an election but ultimately this process is driven by CCP, who needs to secure any contractual agreements that might be necessary, create necessary code, and run the election. I assure you the CPM is not a bottleneck here, and is still ultimately only able to advise CCP in the end just as we do for any other topic.
Fiddlestaxp wrote: You will never have a legitimate relationship with the player base without elections.
There are many players that don't like us and don't think we have authority because they didn't elect us. Quite frankly, their opinion is moot - we continue to function and perform our responsibility regardless. Many, many players have reached out and engaged us and are part of the feedback process, with or without an election.
Fiddlestaxp wrote: You are wasting time. Iws and Jenza are never going to survive an election. Cut the sunk cost BS and get to work on something that might pan out
Oh, do try to relax. IWS and Jenza are working hard whether you like it or not.
And besides - pretty much the most morally egregious waste of our time would be to sit around worrying about our re-election chances. This is not about mimicking the worst traits of real-life politics, this is about helping you guys help CCP fix the game. Several of us have no intentions of running once elections are set up, and if we keep up our current pace of progress, any of the six of us would make an outstanding candidate anyways because they'd be one of very few that could actually point to a track record of success.
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Klivve Cussler
S.e.V.e.N.
163
|
Posted - 2013.06.07 17:02:00 -
[17] - Quote
Quote:Oh, do try to relax. IWS and Jenza are working hard whether you like it or not.
+1 this.
I think that this CPM (CPM 1? CPM 0? CPM 2013?) is going to do a lot of hard tasks and see very little recognition and probably a bit of vilification for their trouble. Part of that is confusion over the CPM's role. A lot of the comments I've read imply that you are regarded as community reps, like the newly minted (er, no. Bad bun)...that is the newly hired CCP Mintchip, rather than player reps.
Personally, I've always thought of the CCP player councils as diplomats. They take the concerns of the player populations to CCP. CCP then peels back the curtain for you (having made you sign the necessary NDAs) and you go back to the player base and say either "Guys, it's cool. CCP has this covered", or "Well, I've brought your concerns to them, and they're considering them, but the solution won't be short term", followed by "No I can't tell you about it. NDA. But trust us, it's cool." And the players believe you. Because you're players, and don't have CCP in front of your name.
There's no doubt that being appointed, you aren't going to have the same level of trust from the playerbase compared to an elected group. And that is unfortunate, but, I think, unavoidable. However, I'm confident that you will push through and represent us to CCP well, and put in place policies, agreements, and procedures to make the subsequent CPMs' jobs that much easier and more effective.
So, keep up the hard work. If you're ever in Victoria Canada, I'll buy you a drink (any of the CPM). I'm sure as the role of the CPM becomes more apparent and transparent, things will get easier. Hopefully some of you will be on the CPM when that takes effect, because I think it's going to take a while. |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
4959
|
Posted - 2013.06.07 17:21:00 -
[18] - Quote
It's CPM 0 Officially. |
Kevall Longstride
DUST University Ivy League
258
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 12:15:00 -
[19] - Quote
Please stop whining about X member of the CPM isn't doing this that or the other.
As has been stated, its a moot point. And it all it does is demonstrate that you really have no clue what your talking about. |
Abu Stij
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
180
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 14:45:00 -
[20] - Quote
Kevall Longstride wrote:Please stop whining about X member of the CPM isn't doing this that or the other.
As has been stated, its a moot point. And it all it does is demonstrate that you really have no clue what you're talking about.
A lot of the users here don't have a clue what they're talking about. |
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Kain Spero
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1563
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 15:51:00 -
[21] - Quote
I know that the one of the main reasons I signed up for the CPM was to establish a voting procedure for a player-elected CPM1.
Not really much action on that front. I know one thing is clear I think that whatever we end up with in terms of the voting procedure none of the CPM0 should be elegible to run for CPM1.
Also, i think it should be abundantly clear that the players should have full control over who is selected to run and the idea of any CCP appointed Councilors should be thrown out the window. |
JL3Eleven
PFB Pink Fluffy Bunnies
494
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 16:08:00 -
[22] - Quote
Kain Spero wrote:I know that the one of the main reasons I signed up for the CPM was to establish a voting procedure for a player-elected CPM1.
Not really much action on that front. I know one thing is clear I think that whatever we end up with in terms of the voting procedure none of the CPM0 should be elegible to run for CPM1.
Also, i think it should be abundantly clear that the players should have full control over who is selected to run and the idea of any CCP appointed Councilors should be thrown out the window.
+1. Not saying I would vote against you considering your time spent trying to make things actually work.
I also agree with no appointed CPMs, they might as well be Devs if they will not listen to the community. |
Fiddlestaxp
TeamPlayers EoN.
83
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 16:15:00 -
[23] - Quote
Kain Spero wrote:I know that the one of the main reasons I signed up for the CPM was to establish a voting procedure for a player-elected CPM1.
Not really much action on that front. I know one thing is clear I think that whatever we end up with in terms of the voting procedure none of the CPM0 should be elegible to run for CPM1.
Also, i think it should be abundantly clear that the players should have full control over who is selected to run and the idea of any CCP appointed Councilors should be thrown out the window.
I don't think such a rule is necessary. Maybe a two term limit. Incumbency undoubtedly has a positive effect on reelection chances, but Heinrich has already stated that he intends to step down and Jenza/IWS will be removed as soon as possible anyway. It isn't that they are necessarily doing a bad job at CPM, it is just that their voices don't represent the community. I don't feel that we should limit anyone's ability to be an elected CPM just because they were an appointed one... The votes will mostly do that anyway.
It *IS* important that we come up with a fair system of election. As the CPMs are in charge of making such a system, bias may be introduced as a means to secure re-election. In such a scenario the CPM0 ban makes sense as a safeguard... |
Kain Spero
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1563
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 17:03:00 -
[24] - Quote
Fiddlestaxp wrote:[quote=Kain Spero]I know that the one of the main reasons I signed up for the CPM was to establish a voting procedure for a player-elected CPM1.
It *IS* important that we come up with a fair system of election. As the CPMs are in charge of making such a system, bias may be introduced as a means to secure re-election. In such a scenario the CPM0 ban makes sense as a safeguard...
Absolutely this. People don't need to establishing a voting system and then running themselves for election. Even if we somehow ened up with an appointment system (which would be awful IMO) that would be double the reason to make sure that CPM0 is not elegible for CPM1. |
Klivve Cussler
S.e.V.e.N.
167
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 18:30:00 -
[25] - Quote
Kain Spero wrote:Fiddlestaxp wrote:[quote=Kain Spero]I know that the one of the main reasons I signed up for the CPM was to establish a voting procedure for a player-elected CPM1.
It *IS* important that we come up with a fair system of election. As the CPMs are in charge of making such a system, bias may be introduced as a means to secure re-election. In such a scenario the CPM0 ban makes sense as a safeguard... Absolutely this. People don't need to establishing a voting system and then running themselves for election. Even if we somehow ened up with an appointment system (which would be awful IMO) that would be double the reason to make sure that CPM0 is not elegible for CPM1.
I'm in favor of this as a one time rule from CPM0 to CPM1, for the reasons stated above. After that, though, I think a term limit should suffice, along the lines of "Must take x years off after y terms". |
Fiddlestaxp
TeamPlayers EoN.
83
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 20:22:00 -
[26] - Quote
Klivve Cussler wrote:Kain Spero wrote:Fiddlestaxp wrote:[quote=Kain Spero]I know that the one of the main reasons I signed up for the CPM was to establish a voting procedure for a player-elected CPM1.
It *IS* important that we come up with a fair system of election. As the CPMs are in charge of making such a system, bias may be introduced as a means to secure re-election. In such a scenario the CPM0 ban makes sense as a safeguard... Absolutely this. People don't need to establishing a voting system and then running themselves for election. Even if we somehow ened up with an appointment system (which would be awful IMO) that would be double the reason to make sure that CPM0 is not elegible for CPM1. I'm in favor of this as a one time rule from CPM0 to CPM1, for the reasons stated above. After that, though, I think a term limit should suffice, along the lines of "Must take x years off after y terms". Two Term Limit. Just enough to maintain cohesion in the case of a job well done and integrate new voices consistently. |
Klivve Cussler
S.e.V.e.N.
167
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 20:34:00 -
[27] - Quote
What's the term limit in the CSM?
I find it interesting that the default for any term limit seems to be "two". Is this because the US Presidential term limit is currently two? I come from a country with no term limits, so it seems interesting to me.
In any case, the term limit for a position like this, in my opinion, is primarily to reduce burnout. By making people take a break, we avoid the implied obligation to run again if you are currently in a position to win again. I'm not certain that the other purpose of term limits, which is to limit corruption, applies to this situation. |
4447
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
748
|
Posted - 2013.06.11 00:31:00 -
[28] - Quote
It's a joke, Their holding onto their power for as long as they can.
CPM are using CCP soonGäó power to deceives us! everyone grab the pitch forks! |
Kain Spero
Spero Escrow Services
1838
|
Posted - 2013.07.16 19:53:00 -
[29] - Quote
Klivve Cussler wrote:What's the term limit in the CSM?
I find it interesting that the default for any term limit seems to be "two". Is this because the US Presidential term limit is currently two? I come from a country with no term limits, so it seems interesting to me.
In any case, the term limit for a position like this, in my opinion, is primarily to reduce burnout. By making people take a break, we avoid the implied obligation to run again if you are currently in a position to win again. I'm not certain that the other purpose of term limits, which is to limit corruption, applies to this situation.
There is no term limit for the CSM. For example Trebor Daehdoow has been on CSM 5 through CSM 8. |
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