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ADAM-OF-EVE Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 11	Posted - 2013.05.28 13:41:00 - [1] - Quote ......why there are so many beginner skills which do nothing but unlock other skills which themselves don't unlock anything until you have in the most cases lvl1 in the first and lvl2 in the second skill(or vice versa). come on you have to see how ridiculous this is. I'm sat here with a full respec and all i can think of is "if i go for that I'm wasting sp on something that gives no benefit at all". in eve for example you have hull upgrades lvl 1for the first arm plate. with the way dust works you would have a skill called ship upgrades which you would need at lvl 2 first then a skill called ship armour upgrades which you would have to train to lvl 1 then have to train armour plates to lvl 1. if eve ran like that it would be awfull. tbh the learning curve for dust is far worse than that of eve and its all down to your awfull skills. i have friends and family who play this game who love the gameplay but hate the skills and im trying to convince them to stay but how can you convince someone to stay and spend all their skill points in something they are going get little of no benifit from untill they have spent more in it
ChromeBreaker SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 514	Posted - 2013.05.28 13:46:00 - [2] - Quote Makes people dedicate to a path, and your not waisting points if it unlocks something you want
VLIGHT5 The Judas Coalition 177	Posted - 2013.05.28 13:47:00 - [3] - Quote It's not really a problem atm...
ADAM-OF-EVE Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 11	Posted - 2013.05.28 13:48:00 - [4] - Quote ChromeBreaker wrote: Makes people dedicate to a path, and your not waisting points if it unlocks something you want but it only unlocks something after you have wasted the points. for making it simple the begginer skills should be removed completely as they serve no purpose other than sinking sp
Bigglesworth McQueen Seraphim Auxiliaries CRONOS. 76	Posted - 2013.05.28 13:52:00 - [5] - Quote ADAM-OF-EVE wrote: ChromeBreaker wrote: Makes people dedicate to a path, and your not waisting points if it unlocks something you want but it only unlocks something after you have wasted the points. for making it simple the begginer skills should be removed completely as they serve no purpose other than sinking sp It's not a waste of points if it unlocks something. In this case, it unlocks a skill that is useful. That skill probably unlocks a weapon, which is useful. It's a skill tree, not a new concept.
ADAM-OF-EVE Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 12	Posted - 2013.05.28 13:54:00 - [6] - Quote Bigglesworth McQueen wrote: ADAM-OF-EVE wrote: ChromeBreaker wrote: Makes people dedicate to a path, and your not waisting points if it unlocks something you want but it only unlocks something after you have wasted the points. for making it simple the begginer skills should be removed completely as they serve no purpose other than sinking sp It's not a waste of points if it unlocks something. In this case, it unlocks a skill that is useful. That skill probably unlocks a weapon, which is useful. It's a skill tree, not a new concept. so why not cut that skill out and just have the skill that is usefull. if the other skill isnt providing anything then it is surplus to requirement
VLIGHT5 The Judas Coalition 177	Posted - 2013.05.28 13:55:00 - [7] - Quote It's not a waste of SP though... If you want to get something, the skills you buy to get it are not wasted. Having SP sinks is necessary to make people truly commit. Can you imagine if every single skill had an effect on how you played? Or if all of the more skill-sink-requiring skills were available to everyone without investing lots of SP? People would be masters of everything. Think about it. Every skill that once required lots of SP and time to access would be available to everyone without any long-term specialization. You'd see people switching from proto heavy to proto logi. It would be chaos. Everybody would basically be able to do everything and there'd be no point in specializing if it was all available to you. Of course, some of the skill sinks could be made a bit smaller, but it's a necessary evil.
Zero Harpuia WarRavens 491	Posted - 2013.05.28 14:03:00 - [8] - Quote VLIGHT5 wrote: It's not a waste of SP though... If you want to get something, the skills you buy to get it are not wasted. Having SP sinks is necessary to make people truly commit. Can you imagine if every single skill had an effect on how you played? Yes I can, it's called 'how EVE skills work'. Every skill in EVE gives you a 2% to this or 5% to that, with the only exceptions being ship unlock skills, and only then because the bonuses are on the hull and derive themselves from the ship skill, so you get a 2% bonus to small railguns on one Caldari ship but another gets a 5% bonus to Shield Transfer units. If DUST were like this every skillpoint would feel link an accomplishment. Have you ever saved up a ton of SP and got nothing for it because you invested in an unlock skill? Pretty sure Vehicle pilots understand the feeling. You feel like you wasted your damn time. Go play some fantasy RPG like... what's popular these days, Skyrim? Do you have to waste a level unlocking the ability to unlock the ability to unlock battleaxees?
steadyhand amarr BetaMax Beta CRONOS. 608	Posted - 2013.05.28 14:06:00 - [9] - Quote My understanding is that every skill does do somthig which skills are u problem skills?
ADAM-OF-EVE Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 16	Posted - 2013.05.28 14:10:00 - [10] - Quote VLIGHT5 wrote: It's not a waste of SP though... If you want to get something, the skills you buy to get it are not wasted. Having SP sinks is necessary to make people truly commit. Can you imagine if every single skill had an effect on how you played? Or if all of the more skill-sink-requiring skills were available to everyone without investing lots of SP? People would be masters of everything. Think about it. Every skill that once required lots of SP and time to access would be available to everyone without any long-term specialization. You'd see people switching from proto heavy to proto logi. It would be chaos. Everybody would basically be able to do everything and there'd be no point in specializing if it was all available to you. Of course, some of the skill sinks could be made a bit smaller, but it's a necessary evil. i get your point and thats not what im trying to get at. what im talking about is that when you look at a skill it either unlocks a lvl of items or it boosts your items but then you have skills that do neither. they apear to eat isk for no benefit and add more confusion to an already confusing skill stree. when i look at a skill i should know where im spending my sp and what it gives me. if want a skill boost for arm for example i put points in arm and 1 of 2 things happen. 1 i get a boost or 2 it might unlock an item. with these sp sink skills im having to step back constantly to upgrade them instead of advancing down my chosen path even to the point of unlocking items in another skill tree i dont even use for this example i might be unlocking shield upgrades instead or arm. what im saying is if these skills were removed and the sp they would have usually needed applied to the other skills which they unlocked it would not only make people take a more specialised path but also ease confusion with selecting that path.

Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon Plus 501	Posted - 2013.05.28 14:14:00 - [11] - Quote I agree with the OP. A prime example of this is the 'Dropsuit Command' skill. It does nothing apart from unlock some dropsuit choices - there is no point at all in leveling it past 3, no benefit at all, and it only serves to inflate the number of skills that newbies need to get before they can actually upgrade. It's a counter-intuitive system and convolutes an already complex skill tree even further.
ADAM-OF-EVE Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 16	Posted - 2013.05.28 14:34:00 - [12] - Quote im not asking for the sp to be removed just the skills and transfer that sp onto the skills that they unlocked
Nebra Tene Roaming Blades 2	Posted - 2013.05.28 15:36:00 - [13] - Quote From what I understand, he's not complaining about the use of SP, but rather how there is no point whatsoever in those skills to exist, mainly reffering to skills that give no bonus and have "empty" levels. For example, Skill lv 1: 10K SP -> Unlock Something Skill lv 2: 15K SP -> Unlocks Nothing Skill lv 3: 20K SP -> Unlock Something Skill lv 4: 25K SP -> Unlocks Nothing Skill lv 5: 30K SP -> Unlocks Something Why have lv 2 and lv 4 at all? Just move lv 3 to l v2 and lv 5 to lv3. make the cost of lv 2 to 35K SP and lv 3 cost 55KSP It would be the exact same thing but with less clutter. Correct?
Judy Maat Rebelles A Quebec Orion Empire 41	Posted - 2013.05.28 15:41:00 - [14] - Quote Nebra Tene wrote: From what I understand, he's not complaining about the use of SP, but rather how there is no point whatsoever in those skills to exist, mainly reffering to skills that give no bonus and have "empty" levels. For example, Skill lv 1: 10K SP -> Unlock Something Skill lv 2: 15K SP -> Unlocks Nothing Skill lv 3: 20K SP -> Unlock Something Skill lv 4: 25K SP -> Unlocks Nothing Skill lv 5: 30K SP -> Unlocks Something Why have lv 2 and lv 4 at all? Just move lv 3 to l v2 and lv 5 to lv3. make the cost of lv 2 to 35K SP and lv 3 cost 55KSP It would be the exact same thing but with less clutter. Correct? skill lv 2 and 4 are just place to add more items in the future that would require lvl 2 and lvl 4 eventually. and as with any ccp game.. all skill have 5 lvl that's just how things are done
ADAM-OF-EVE Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 19	Posted - 2013.05.28 16:58:00 - [15] - Quote Judy Maat wrote: Nebra Tene wrote: From what I understand, he's not complaining about the use of SP, but rather how there is no point whatsoever in those skills to exist, mainly reffering to skills that give no bonus and have "empty" levels. For example, Skill lv 1: 10K SP -> Unlock Something Skill lv 2: 15K SP -> Unlocks Nothing Skill lv 3: 20K SP -> Unlock Something Skill lv 4: 25K SP -> Unlocks Nothing Skill lv 5: 30K SP -> Unlocks Something Why have lv 2 and lv 4 at all? Just move lv 3 to l v2 and lv 5 to lv3. make the cost of lv 2 to 35K SP and lv 3 cost 55KSP It would be the exact same thing but with less clutter. Correct? skill lv 2 and 4 are just place to add more items in the future that would require lvl 2 and lvl 4 eventually. and as with any ccp game.. all skill have 5 lvl that's just how things are done actually i meant the skills like dropsuits and dropsuit upgrades. the ones that unlock skills which unlock the gear or skills which increse the effectiveness but dont actually serve any other purpose other than to swallow up isk and sp and provide confusion when working out where you want to specialise. as for ccp leaving spaces in skills like you mentioned well thats just as bad. putting that down to future proofing is wrong. if that was the case you would just have level 1-3 and the other 2 levels would be for the future proofing. after all who wants new content that is below what you are already are using. and if the gear was more advanced i.e tech2 then they would be lvl4-5 skill requirements anyway. and with ccp able to do skill changes and ballancing at will then there is no need to future proof it
Nebra Tene Roaming Blades 3	Posted - 2013.05.28 22:09:00 - [16] - Quote ADAM-OF-EVE wrote: Judy Maat wrote: Nebra Tene wrote: From what I understand, he's not complaining about the use of SP, but rather how there is no point whatsoever in those skills to exist, mainly reffering to skills that give no bonus and have "empty" levels. For example, Skill lv 1: 10K SP -> Unlock Something Skill lv 2: 15K SP -> Unlocks Nothing Skill lv 3: 20K SP -> Unlock Something Skill lv 4: 25K SP -> Unlocks Nothing Skill lv 5: 30K SP -> Unlocks Something Why have lv 2 and lv 4 at all? Just move lv 3 to l v2 and lv 5 to lv3. make the cost of lv 2 to 35K SP and lv 3 cost 55KSP It would be the exact same thing but with less clutter. Correct? skill lv 2 and 4 are just place to add more items in the future that would require lvl 2 and lvl 4 eventually. and as with any ccp game.. all skill have 5 lvl that's just how things are done actually i meant the skills like dropsuits and dropsuit upgrades. the ones that unlock skills which unlock the gear or skills which increse the effectiveness but dont actually serve any other purpose other than to swallow up isk and sp and provide confusion when working out where you want to specialise. Well I was going to make a point for that in my previous post too, but then while writing it I realized it did have a purpose, as the ones that are empty but unlock later skills is more so that the increase of SP needed isn't too much, but still needs some SP to start it. Can't have the skill cost 500k SP initially, then lv 2 cost 30k SP, or have it start already really high then just keep going higher, the cost would be ridiculous. Can't really have a otherwise lv5 unlock skill cost 15k SP to just unlock either. Basically: Blank Skill lv5 500k SP -> Unlocks Useful Skill lv1 20k SP so that the SP cost can be reduced and have a manageable SP growth for the the 2nd skill's start and up.
Crash Monster Snipers Anonymous 413	Posted - 2013.05.28 22:18:00 - [17] - Quote The tears are strong in this one... we all play the same game and face the same skill tree. Get over it.
Nebra Tene Roaming Blades 4	Posted - 2013.05.29 03:46:00 - [18] - Quote Crash Monster wrote: The tears are strong in this one... we all play the same game and face the same skill tree. Get over it. The ignorance is strong with this one...read the thread before attempting to troll, or you'll just end up looking even more foolish than you would have otherwise. Yes I understand I am replying to a troll, I don't really care.
Sloth9230 Reaper Galactic ROFL BROS 1516	Posted - 2013.05.29 03:48:00 - [19] - Quote Passive skills gave vets an unfair advantage over newbies. Yes, it's that simple.
Dale Templar Regime Of Shadow Marines Alpha Wolf Pack 14	Posted - 2013.05.29 11:06:00 - [20] - Quote You've obviously never played any form of RPG before have you?

Cosgar's Alt Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 16	Posted - 2013.05.29 11:08:00 - [21] - Quote Sloth9230 wrote: Passive skills gave vets an unfair advantage over newbies. Yes, it's that simple. /thread
The Attorney General ZionTCD Unclaimed. 59	Posted - 2013.05.29 11:15:00 - [22] - Quote ADAM-OF-EVE wrote: but it only unlocks something after you have wasted the points. for making it simple the begginer skills should be removed completely as they serve no purpose other than sinking sp Why does this surprise you? CCP has to motivate people to buy boosters and Aurum items. The best way to do that is to put arbitrary hurdles into the game to reduce the speed with which someone can reach the "end game". The only other option is for CCP to produce enough content to keep people busy for the time between expansions. Since they couldn't do that before release, they went with jacking up the SP cost to extend the games life. Now go buy some boosters because CCP is going broke.
Israckcatarac Opus Arcana Orion Empire 19	Posted - 2013.05.29 11:30:00 - [23] - Quote skill 1=ISK item skill 2=AUR item skill 3=ISK item skill 4=AUR item skill 5=ISK item
Dale Templar Regime Of Shadow Marines Alpha Wolf Pack 14	Posted - 2013.05.29 11:38:00 - [24] - Quote Israckcatarac wrote: skill 1=ISK item skill 2=AUR item skill 3=ISK item skill 4=AUR item skill 5=ISK item Nail on the head.
Galvan Nized Deep Space Republic Gentlemen's Agreement 1	Posted - 2013.05.29 11:43:00 - [25] - Quote Slightly confused over exactly what point the OP is really trying to make. I think i need a more specific example. But if you are trying to make the point that there should be more passive bonuses for overall effectiveness for these "unlocking" skills then we tried that and it left Vets with a distinct advantage. Currently I like the emphasis being on active bonuses for the most part. Really makes the loadout important. And this is an FPS so it cannot be done exactly as Eve.
CrotchGrab 360 Better Hide R Die D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 84	Posted - 2013.05.29 11:50:00 - [26] - Quote Dam people you are all so stupid in your rebuttals. It's not a waste of SP because it unlocks something you want? Do you need to get your heads checked? So I've invented this new skill, it's called 10m SP, you have to spend 10m SP into it to unlock hands level 1, after hands level 1 you unlock holding level 1, after hand-eye co-ordination proficiency is unlocked you can start to skill into assault rifles. but it's not a waste or an SP sink because it unlocks something you want, right? Good logic, stay in school.
CrotchGrab 360 Better Hide R Die D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 84	Posted - 2013.05.29 11:51:00 - [27] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: I agree with the OP. A prime example of this is the 'Dropsuit Command' skill. It does nothing apart from unlock some dropsuit choices - there is no point at all in leveling it past 3, no benefit at all, and it only serves to inflate the number of skills that newbies need to get before they can actually upgrade. It's a counter-intuitive system and convolutes an already complex skill tree even further. and puts the people who are behind even further behind and in turn, makes them quit the game or not even want to start it up. I wouldn't be surprised if DUST gets NO new players.
J Falcs Bojo's School of the Trades 66	Posted - 2013.05.29 11:52:00 - [28] - Quote You can put your thoughts (for or against) in this thread here. I have no clue if CCP has taken notice though.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 4070	Posted - 2013.05.29 11:58:00 - [29] - Quote Pointless skills that serve only as filler should not exist.
Imp Smash On The Brink CRONOS. 111	Posted - 2013.05.29 13:13:00 - [30] - Quote I kinda understand. Dropship command is a great example. Level 1 you unlock x, level 2 you unlock y, level 3 you unlock z. Level 4 and 5 nothing. Ok maybe stuff will be added. But what about stuff that gives you no bonus? Meh. I'm cool with either or - but I do sometimes feel a bit meh about it. I would like a bit more incentive sometimes.

HK Rage Science For Death The Shadow Eclipse 1	Posted - 2013.05.29 13:25:00 - [31] - Quote I feel like the filler levels add to the mmo feel I guess but we should get some kind of bonus or atleast something for upgrading it to a level that gets us nothing new.
Panther Alpha Commando Perkone Caldari State 326	Posted - 2013.05.29 13:36:00 - [32] - Quote The reasoning is simple ... - EvE online is a Subscription Game. AkA ( Pay to Play ) - Dust 514 is a Free to Play Game. AkA ( Pay To Win ) CCP needs people to spend money in Boosters, to support the development of the game.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 3130	Posted - 2013.05.29 13:43:00 - [33] - Quote Sloth9230 wrote: Passive skills gave vets an unfair advantage over newbies. Yes, it's that simple. And yet they kept a whole bunch of passive skill bonuses, but made them only show up on the higher-level skills. I'd rather see it the other way around, with mosof the passives applied to low-SP skills, so a new player who knows what they're doing can quickly out-perform a higher-level player who didn't train the right skills to back up their fitting. Giving the passives early and not providing more later would lead towards an environment where the vets don't have a built-in advantage against someone whose only mistake was picking the game up 6 months late.

CCP Eterne C C P C C P Alliance 1836	Posted - 2013.05.29 15:09:00 - [34] - Quote Moving from General Discussions to Feedback/Requests.

Stephen Rao Verboten XXI 13	Posted - 2013.05.29 15:39:00 - [35] - Quote Panther Alpha wrote: The reasoning is simple ... - EvE online is a Subscription Game. AkA ( Pay to Play ) - Dust 514 is a Free to Play Game. AkA ( Pay To Not Suck as Much ) CCP needs people to spend money in Boosters, to support the development of the game. Fixed that for you
Celeblhach Liberum Sapiens Xenodochi 23	Posted - 2013.05.29 19:34:00 - [36] - Quote The OP isn't complaining about the fact that there are skills that serve as prereqs but mainly that those skills do absolutely nothing. Dropsuit Command, Dropsuit Upgrades, Weaponry, Vehicle Command, Vehicle Upgrades, etc. don't actually unlock anything. Skill into level 5 of each without any other skills is the same as someone with no skill points set at all in combat or fitting. Personally, I think if they just added some small passive boost to each skill, then it would solve the problem and make players feel like they are at least getting something and not just padding SP Trees with ornaments. However, CCP appears to be doing the opposite, since they removed the 2% damage from Weaponry and placed it across the board. Also, most RPGs that have skill trees have a bonus of some sort at each skill level. Even if virtually negligible, it still exists.
ADAM-OF-EVE Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 29	Posted - 2013.05.30 19:56:00 - [37] - Quote Celeblhach wrote: The OP isn't complaining about the fact that there are skills that serve as prereqs but mainly that those skills do absolutely nothing. Dropsuit Command, Dropsuit Upgrades, Weaponry, Vehicle Command, Vehicle Upgrades, etc. don't actually unlock anything. Skill into level 5 of each without any other skills is the same as someone with no skill points set at all in combat or fitting. Personally, I think if they just added some small passive boost to each skill, then it would solve the problem and make players feel like they are at least getting something and not just padding SP Trees with ornaments. However, CCP appears to be doing the opposite, since they removed the 2% damage from Weaponry and placed it across the board. Also, most RPGs that have skill trees have a bonus of some sort at each skill level. Even if virtually negligible, it still exists. i didnt really want to get into passives as for some that is a touchy subject which over shadows the main point of my post. but your right with the first part. you want people to feel they have a chance against vets but when they place sp in skills that give them nothing and unlock items they cant afford to loose then something is wrong. its ok for us vets/not so noobs with 4+mil sp and masses of disposable income to compete as we have the points/isk to waste to bring us upto par in some way or another but for new players especially those who are not familier with a skill tree the skill gap is too far. a noob could easily blow all his starter sp into the beginner skills listed in the quote without realising whats happened. i know people who have pretty much done that and had to request the recent respec. the current skill tree is not progressive. it takes you back and forth constantly and is for alot of potential new merc's very confusing. for us vets we have the sp stockpiled from beta to bypass the problem but for new guys its the first thing in their face before competing against advanced geared vets even crosses their mind
ADAM-OF-EVE Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 41	Posted - 2013.06.08 17:23:00 - [38] - Quote bump
Ten-Sidhe Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 494	Posted - 2013.06.08 19:32:00 - [39] - Quote It is only way to add sp to lv1 of a skill without adding 25x as much sp to the top of the skill. It is place holder, some small bonus will be attached there once they come up with a good one. Just slapping bonus all over without thinking it through would make vets overpowered. If they left them out and added them later they would have to do a respec. This gives them some room to add in later at tree base without a respec needed. The game is planed to be around for many years, these blanks may be filled in in future expansion that comes out in 2-3 years. For example, weapon attachments are planned, so maybe the currently no bonus weaponry skill will give +5% to weaponry calibration points used to fit scopes and attachments to guns. It would just confuse people if it said that and there was nothing to do with the calibration points yet since the attachment system will come in future expansion when it is finished.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 2621	Posted - 2013.06.08 19:48:00 - [40] - Quote Take a look at Eve Online. There is your answer. Enough said.

ADAM-OF-EVE Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 46	Posted - 2013.06.09 16:31:00 - [41] - Quote Ten-Sidhe wrote: It is only way to add sp to lv1 of a skill without adding 25x as much sp to the top of the skill. It is place holder, some small bonus will be attached there once they come up with a good one. Just slapping bonus all over without thinking it through would make vets overpowered. If they left them out and added them later they would have to do a respec. This gives them some room to add in later at tree base without a respec needed. The game is planed to be around for many years, these blanks may be filled in in future expansion that comes out in 2-3 years. For example, weapon attachments are planned, so maybe the currently no bonus weaponry skill will give +5% to weaponry calibration points used to fit scopes and attachments to guns. It would just confuse people if it said that and there was nothing to do with the calibration points yet since the attachment system will come in future expansion when it is finished. your missing the point. its not about adding bonuses. its about making use of your skill points at lower levels. a game like dust doesnt need skills for future proofing because you can just add on more to the existing setup. i.e you would just have weapon upgrades skill tree like dropsuits upgradess etc so that point you made is not a viable reason for keeping them. as for these skills making higher skills cheaper is rediculous as your still having to spend those points across the skills rather direct into the skill you want. what use is future proofing skills for stuff which isnt even out yet but every noob has to spend skillpoints into before getting onto the skills and items they can use right now. it doesnt make any sense
Artificer Ghost Bojo's School of the Trades 92	Posted - 2013.06.09 17:21:00 - [42] - Quote Panther Alpha wrote: The reasoning is simple ... - EvE online is a Subscription Game. AkA ( Pay to Play ) - Dust 514 is a Free to Play Game. AkA ( Pay To Win ) CCP needs people to spend money in Boosters, to support the development of the game. Sorry, just read this while window-shopping. AUR is not Pay to Win. It's enhanced progression. It may SEEM like a Pay to Win, because you get Proto-Suits early, and you get Skill Boosters, but those don't make you instantly stronger. They'll only ease you into the next phase. You can get a 'Neo' Gallente Logistics suit for AUR, and you have your first Prototype suit. But that's just to tell players what a Proto-type is like. You can only keep feeding AUR so long. Eventually, you have to skill into the ISK suit and play normally. The Skill Boosters help with that.


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