DUST Search - Tankers and AV against MLT LAVs and AV grenades

Tailss Prower wrote:

TheAmazing FlyingPig wrote:

Tbh, I think AV is fine where it is atm, and this is coming from a dedicated Gunnlogi pilot. I say this for two reasons:

1. We currently only have access to the Militia and Standard variants of tanks, as well as the Enforcers. Enforcers are (supposed to be) glass cannons, while the standard version exists to provide a balance between tank and gank. I'm waiting for our Marauders to come back to really lean one way or the other, but so far I see proto AV going against standard equipment.

2. A lot of tank drivers are idiots. Seriously. I see many people drive these things out into the open and start firing at individuals like they're a solo pubstoming infantry meatgrinder. These will be the guys that get snuck up on, blown up (I sometimes wonder what the severity of QQ would be if we had a C4 equivalent), and then come here to tell us that "I died. They too stronk". I find that my survivability is almost assured if I stay with the group (hell, sometimes I'll lag behind a bit) and have a backup plan ready instead of flooring it in reverse.

I think what he mean't was the AV nades not AV weapons themself and I do agree about the AV nades being to much of a replacement and with me and my proto swarms I don't notmally have a issue blowing up a mlt LAV but thats me

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CharCharOdell Shining Flame Amarr Empire 214	Posted - 2013.05.26 00:08:00 - [1] - Quote A general concencus among tankers and dedicaated (that means 7mil+ SP into just killing tanks- not having a Darkside or AV grenades!) is that mlt LAVs have far too much HP and AV grenades are replacing forge guns and swarm launchers as the primary anti-tank weapon, as most tanks are killed by these things. Why MLT LAVs need a nerf: From the tanker's point of view: 1) Cannot be one-shotted by a particle cannon- ridiculous that the biggest, baddest weapon in the game can't one-shot the cheapest behicle (which is the purpose of railguns in the first place) 2) They do not deserve to have vehicles that are that difficult to kill if they cost NO ISK or SP. I have very powerful logi LAVs because I spent the SP to get all the proto modules and passive skills to fit them the way I do. From the AV point of view: 1) There is no reason why a Wirykomi or Ishukone should have this much trouble killing a free vehicle for the same reason that particles can't. It'd be like if a Boundless HMG couldn't melt a starter assault fit at close range. Solution: Bring free LAVs HP down to 500 points total. This will allow even HMGs to kill them, as well as being OHK'd by any AV, or in just under 2 seconds by a large blaster. Also, it'd be an easy victim of impact damage if poorly driven- which they usually are. Why AV nades need a nerf: From the tanker's point of view: 1) For the most part, tankers respect the fact that someone who dedicated themselves to killing tanks should be able to do so with relative ease, as we have dedicated ourselves to destroying installations, vehicles, and infantry with relative ease. However, AV nades kill more tanks than any other weapon. In Chromosome, most tank kills were made by railguns, blasters, and forge guns- this is how it should be. Now, any assault trooper can walk up to a tank and do 4500 dmg in 3 seconds, and if they have a nanohive, (1500) X (seconds at nanohive). This means a single person can kill a madrugar by themselves with little to no SP spent, and 2000 isk spent to kill a 1.6 mil ISK vehicle. It simply is too powerful for its cost and skill requirement compared to swarm launchers, railguns, and forge guns. From the AV point of view: 1) AV nades have replaced forge guns and swarm launchers as the most effective AV weapon for skill and isk needed, as well as killing a lot fast. A swarm launcher can take 2 seconds to lock on, and then up to five to track and hit the target. A forge gun can take 2.5-6 seconds to charge, and then they must lead the target as well as be able to aim with a poor crosshair- that takes a lot of skill (especially at ranges beyond 300m). AV nades, however, take 1 second to throw, do as much damage as an ishukone forge, and home onto their targets. That would be like a person with a mass driver aiming into the sky, and having their rounds guided by satellite onto someone's head every single time. Ultimately, this affects the AV player by making him less valuable to the team. Nobody in their right mind bring someone who invested all their SP into killing tanks into a PC match where someone who can hold objectives, kill infantry, and kill tanks could work just as well. Preventing your team from being destroyed by tanks should require that you bring a fully specced forger or rail tank to the fight, rather than it being just good enough to have everyone bring AV nades. From my point of view as a tanker, rarely has a team brought someone with fully specced AV to the fight; instead, everyone just uses AV nades. The solution: Bring AV nade damage down to 600 for STD, 675 for ADV, and 750 for PRO. More than enough to kill a LAV, but not enough to solo any tank; yet able to drive a tank who is getting too careless away. These two issues, if solved as stated here, will make AV players much more valuable on the market, as well as tanks becoming much more survivable. If you support this, please only comment if you are dedicated to either vehicles or AV, with >70% of your total SP into either. -Char 10 mil purely into vehicles and have been tanking since Chromosome was released.
CharCharOdell Shining Flame Amarr Empire 215	Posted - 2013.05.26 05:11:00 - [2] - Quote #shamelessselfbump
calisk galern BurgezzE.T.F Orion Empire 155	Posted - 2013.05.26 05:14:00 - [3] - Quote just so you know you are asking for the EHP of the free lav's to be less then my snipers ehp.
CharCharOdell Shining Flame Amarr Empire 215	Posted - 2013.05.26 05:21:00 - [4] - Quote They cost nothing and can kill proto suits. I think it's fair.
Coleman Gray GunFall Mobilization 296	Posted - 2013.05.26 05:25:00 - [5] - Quote Lots of good points here, but I feel free militia LAV's should be removed totally, what do you do when you give a child a toy only for him to abuse it say like hitting other children with it? you take it away.
Cy Clone1 Ill Omens EoN. 10	Posted - 2013.05.26 05:33:00 - [6] - Quote even though we only have standard Havs, i think your right about av nades. People should have to specialize into different roles rather than be able to be effective vs everytype. I think decreasing the homing abillities of av nades would help stop the duck and chuck players tanks run into. This would make it so av nades are still powerful, but players would have to make them selves more vunerable to get a strike.
DeadlyAztec11 One-Armed Bandits Unclaimed. 354	Posted - 2013.05.26 05:46:00 - [7] - Quote Good looks +1
Cy Clone1 Ill Omens EoN. 10	Posted - 2013.05.26 19:14:00 - [8] - Quote bump
Scheneighnay McBob Bojo's School of the Trades 1353	Posted - 2013.05.26 19:22:00 - [9] - Quote I was an LAV driver last build, and I agree that militia LAVs need a nerf right now. Starter fit LAVs were balanced last build by the fact that every AV weapon except militia swarms could OHK them. Now I need to waste 2 or 3 of my AV grenades to get them to stop buzzing around me.
GeneralButtNaked ZionTCD Unclaimed. 433	Posted - 2013.05.26 19:31:00 - [10] - Quote Remove free lavs, cut the PG of BPO lavs, and drop AV nades damage by 30% at basic, 25% at advanced, and 8% at proto.

Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon Plus 478	Posted - 2013.05.26 19:56:00 - [11] - Quote Whilst I agree with most of your points, the AV grenade damage cut you've suggested is far too big. I agree that it's too effective now, but proto grenades doing 750 damage? Even a militia tank would be able to shrug multiple people throwing them off, and any decently specced LAV would be practically invincible to them as well, effectively making them a tool for only dealing with militia LAVs. The militia LAV nerf suggested here is massive - wouldn't it be better instead to remove free LAVs and make them cost isk, and reverse the HP buff?
Vermaak Doe SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 752	Posted - 2013.05.26 20:17:00 - [12] - Quote Op, go biomass
Obodiah Garro Tech Guard General Tso's Alliance 35	Posted - 2013.05.26 20:18:00 - [13] - Quote I agree with mlt LAV getting nerfed/removed but for the love of god AV grenades need a boost! Ive tossed em at some tanks and they barely dmg them at all.
CharCharOdell Shining Flame Amarr Empire 223	Posted - 2013.05.26 23:05:00 - [14] - Quote Obodiah Garro wrote: I agree with mlt LAV getting nerfed/removed but for the love of god AV grenades need a boost! Ive tossed em at some tanks and they barely dmg them at all. I'm gonna take a wild guess that it was a gunlogi and he had 3 hardeners on at once. if you aren't melting tanks with those, im willing to bet he has a few hardeners on. And on removing free LAVs: that won't solve the problem. They're still very cheap. Either mlt lavs need an HP nerf or they need to be completely removed and replaced with speeder bikes (much harder to run someone over when you have about .70m of ramming area vs 2m...or 4m with a tank. AV grenades should not be considered a viable for of AV. They need to be enough to OHK a mlt LAV, yes, but it's ridiculous that 6 people, all equipped with ADV AV grenades, can put out 27,000pts of damage in 3 seconds- no tank can move that fast from a standstill. One AV grenade does ~1500dmg. That is enough to make ANY tank driver back off, i promise you. But multiply that by 3 and you have enough to solo a madrugar- im sure any player worth their salt here has done it. Reducing ADV AV grenade damage down to 600dmg would still wreak havoc on a madrugar (600+0.30(600)), but it would require more teamwork for a squad of ARs to kill a tank. This, however, would give shield tanks an edge. That being said, most tankers can agree that shield tanks need some kind of edge, as they have drastically lower acceleration than an armor tank and cannot rep, harden, or take the same beating as armor tanks can. It would just about level the playing field because (600-0.30(600) is easily shrugged off. Ultimately, this wouldn't break the tank/av balance bc true AV players still have the power to decimate 95% of tankers before they cause any real damage. Now, the job of having good AV players or rail tanks in PC battles becomes paramount, as no squad of AR users can easily kill an experienced tanker- as it should be. Any quams about this would come from someone feeling it is unfair that they can't specialize in killing vehicles AND infantry equally as effectively, but that is the point. A forge gunner or professional swarmer spends all of his skill points to kill tanks; he should be extremely important if there is a tank wreaking havoc on his infantry. The infantry would benefit from these changes because mlt lavs driven by drunk blueberries would just be easy WP; otherwise, the AV/tank balance would become ever closer to the true balance which is needed.
Mother Facker Ill Omens EoN. 2	Posted - 2013.05.26 23:13:00 - [15] - Quote Why should a proto AV grenade do so little damage? It costs 1.2 million skill points to get. With that you could get proto forge guns and swarm launchers. I do agree that free LAVs have far too much health for their sp and isk requirement.
Charlotte O'Dell TeamPlayers EoN. 332	Posted - 2013.05.26 23:16:00 - [16] - Quote Mother Facker wrote: Why should a proto AV grenade do so little damage? It costs 1.2 million skill points to get. With that you could get proto forge guns and swarm launchers. I do agree that free LAVs have far too much health for their sp and isk requirement. I'd say reduce the Sp requirement by A LOT because we all know every AR user is going to get them at some point. Also, theyre relatively cheap compared to proto forges or swarms.
Cy Clone1 Ill Omens EoN. 10	Posted - 2013.05.27 00:59:00 - [17] - Quote just reduce there abillity to home in on vehicles that way the range will be decreased and they will be harder to use. They will still be able to kill lavs coming at them as well as tankers that spend to much time stationary.
TheAmazing FlyingPig Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 515	Posted - 2013.05.27 01:10:00 - [18] - Quote Tbh, I think AV is fine where it is atm, and this is coming from a dedicated Gunnlogi pilot. I say this for two reasons: 1. We currently only have access to the Militia and Standard variants of tanks, as well as the Enforcers. Enforcers are (supposed to be) glass cannons, while the standard version exists to provide a balance between tank and gank. I'm waiting for our Marauders to come back to really lean one way or the other, but so far I see proto AV going against standard equipment. 2. A lot of tank drivers are idiots. Seriously. I see many people drive these things out into the open and start firing at individuals like they're a solo pubstoming infantry meatgrinder. These will be the guys that get snuck up on, blown up (I sometimes wonder what the severity of QQ would be if we had a C4 equivalent), and then come here to tell us that "I died. They too stronk". I find that my survivability is almost assured if I stay with the group (hell, sometimes I'll lag behind a bit) and have a backup plan ready instead of flooring it in reverse.
Tailss Prower 501ST JFW Striker Unit 28	Posted - 2013.05.27 01:18:00 - [19] - Quote TheAmazing FlyingPig wrote: Tbh, I think AV is fine where it is atm, and this is coming from a dedicated Gunnlogi pilot. I say this for two reasons: 1. We currently only have access to the Militia and Standard variants of tanks, as well as the Enforcers. Enforcers are (supposed to be) glass cannons, while the standard version exists to provide a balance between tank and gank. I'm waiting for our Marauders to come back to really lean one way or the other, but so far I see proto AV going against standard equipment. 2. A lot of tank drivers are idiots. Seriously. I see many people drive these things out into the open and start firing at individuals like they're a solo pubstoming infantry meatgrinder. These will be the guys that get snuck up on, blown up (I sometimes wonder what the severity of QQ would be if we had a C4 equivalent), and then come here to tell us that "I died. They too stronk". I find that my survivability is almost assured if I stay with the group (hell, sometimes I'll lag behind a bit) and have a backup plan ready instead of flooring it in reverse. I think what he mean't was the AV nades not AV weapons themself and I do agree about the AV nades being to much of a replacement and with me and my proto swarms I don't notmally have a issue blowing up a mlt LAV but thats me
TheAmazing FlyingPig Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 515	Posted - 2013.05.27 01:22:00 - [20] - Quote Tailss Prower wrote: TheAmazing FlyingPig wrote: Tbh, I think AV is fine where it is atm, and this is coming from a dedicated Gunnlogi pilot. I say this for two reasons: 1. We currently only have access to the Militia and Standard variants of tanks, as well as the Enforcers. Enforcers are (supposed to be) glass cannons, while the standard version exists to provide a balance between tank and gank. I'm waiting for our Marauders to come back to really lean one way or the other, but so far I see proto AV going against standard equipment. 2. A lot of tank drivers are idiots. Seriously. I see many people drive these things out into the open and start firing at individuals like they're a solo pubstoming infantry meatgrinder. These will be the guys that get snuck up on, blown up (I sometimes wonder what the severity of QQ would be if we had a C4 equivalent), and then come here to tell us that "I died. They too stronk". I find that my survivability is almost assured if I stay with the group (hell, sometimes I'll lag behind a bit) and have a backup plan ready instead of flooring it in reverse. I think what he mean't was the AV nades not AV weapons themself and I do agree about the AV nades being to much of a replacement and with me and my proto swarms I don't notmally have a issue blowing up a mlt LAV but thats me Ah, apologies then. AV nades, from my perspective, are fine. I normally roll my tank out with a pack of infantry a bit ahead of me, and rare is the occasion that a redberry goes unnoticed by the squad I'm following. I have read threads saying that AV nades will occasionally blow up LAV drivers, but leave the vehicle intact. As hilarious as this is, I can't say whether or not it's intended to work like that. EDIT: I should mention that I roll Gunnlogi's, which have an innate explosive resistance, so that might influence my opinion.

Charlotte O'Dell TeamPlayers EoN. 332	Posted - 2013.05.27 04:41:00 - [21] - Quote AV for the most part is fine. It's the balance between AV grenades and other forms of AV on terms of ISK spent and SP needed. It simply doesn't make sense when you do the math. AV grenades punch well above their ISK and SP requirements! Bring them back in line with the rest of AV, so they are not the best method of AV.
Charlotte O'Dell TeamPlayers EoN. 332	Posted - 2013.05.27 07:18:00 - [22] - Quote #favflave
Spkr4theDead Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 99	Posted - 2013.05.27 15:15:00 - [23] - Quote CharCharOdell wrote: They cost nothing and can kill proto suits. I think it's fair. The Exile can kill proto suits, nobody wants that nerfed.
Spkr4theDead Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 99	Posted - 2013.05.27 15:22:00 - [24] - Quote Mother Facker wrote: Why should a proto AV grenade do so little damage? It costs 1.2 million skill points to get. With that you could get proto forge guns and swarm launchers. I do agree that free LAVs have far too much health for their sp and isk requirement. I've put almost 10mil SP into vehicles, why should your investment, that's about 15% of what I put into vehicles, so easily and quickly destroy my tank?
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3257	Posted - 2013.05.27 15:38:00 - [25] - Quote The second they buffed free LAVs hitpoints through the roof while leaving dropships untouched was the second I confirmed my decision to spec out of vehicles for the next year
WASTED MERC The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 12	Posted - 2013.06.13 14:05:00 - [26] - Quote Yeah dropships need a serious boost in many aspects, and defiantly need much easier control. They seem to be the least used item in the game. Maybe the solution to this AV/HAV should be if your side wins (or it self destructs) you can recover a (or some %age of the) base tank shells destroyed in the match. Use the repair or proxy excuse to justify it, but you still loose all modules. The only thing that changes is its easier to recover post match from loosing the tank.
Ambiuris Zinum EL Azteca Empire Amenaza Inminente 6	Posted - 2013.06.13 14:28:00 - [27] - Quote I did my skill respec because 10 mil SP into tanks and to have it destroyed by 1 merc with packed AV's was wrong. Now I'm a heavy and killing tanks with milt forge gun and level 1 AV grenades. When they fix tanks I will go back to tanks. CCP pleas help us tankers. Thanks.
FatalFlaw V1 ISK Faucet Industries 92	Posted - 2013.06.13 14:34:00 - [28] - Quote Lowering MLT health to the point where it can be one-shot would probably go a long way towards reducing murder taxi's. Something else they could consider would be making the driver and passengers take some amount of the damage that is dealt to the vehicle. I know the driver and passengers can be specifically targeted but this would help more with AV weapons that seem fairly weak vs MLT's lately and tend to lack accuracy to target the passengers.
Knightshade Belladonna WH0 G1VSA FL0CK GLOCKS 361	Posted - 2013.06.13 14:46:00 - [29] - Quote When did Av nades ever change , other than the fact they are no longer road mines. More people are becoming aware of thier uses, sounds like tanks need to become more aware of them being there.
stlcarlos989 SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 107	Posted - 2013.06.13 14:53:00 - [30] - Quote If you think AV nades are too powerful then become a Shield Tanker because shield tanks are strong against explosive damage. I killed the driver out of a logistics LAV and I decided to destroy his LAV, I threw down a nanohive and it took 6 packed AV nades to destroy it.



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