DUST Search - Tankers and AV against MLT LAVs and AV grenades

Delta 749 wrote:

CharCharOdell wrote:

Delta 749 wrote:

CharCharOdell wrote:

Obodiah Garro wrote:

I agree with mlt LAV getting nerfed/removed but for the love of god AV grenades need a boost! Ive tossed em at some tanks and they barely dmg them at all.

I'm gonna take a wild guess that it was a gunlogi and he had 3 hardeners on at once. if you aren't melting tanks with those, im willing to bet he has a few hardeners on.

And on removing free LAVs: that won't solve the problem. They're still very cheap. Either mlt lavs need an HP nerf or they need to be completely removed and replaced with speeder bikes (much harder to run someone over when you have about .70m of ramming area vs 2m...or 4m with a tank.

AV grenades should not be considered a viable for of AV. They need to be enough to OHK a mlt LAV, yes, but it's ridiculous that 6 people, all equipped with ADV AV grenades, can put out 27,000pts of damage in 3 seconds- no tank can move that fast from a standstill. One AV grenade does ~1500dmg. That is enough to make ANY tank driver back off, i promise you. But multiply that by 3 and you have enough to solo a madrugar- im sure any player worth their salt here has done it. Reducing ADV AV grenade damage down to 600dmg would still wreak havoc on a madrugar (600+0.30(600)), but it would require more teamwork for a squad of ARs to kill a tank. This, however, would give shield tanks an edge. That being said, most tankers can agree that shield tanks need some kind of edge, as they have drastically lower acceleration than an armor tank and cannot rep, harden, or take the same beating as armor tanks can. It would just about level the playing field because (600-0.30(600) is easily shrugged off.

Ultimately, this wouldn't break the tank/av balance bc true AV players still have the power to decimate 95% of tankers before they cause any real damage. Now, the job of having good AV players or rail tanks in PC battles becomes paramount, as no squad of AR users can easily kill an experienced tanker- as it should be.

Any quams about this would come from someone feeling it is unfair that they can't specialize in killing vehicles AND infantry equally as effectively, but that is the point. A forge gunner or professional swarmer spends all of his skill points to kill tanks; he should be extremely important if there is a tank wreaking havoc on his infantry.

The infantry would benefit from these changes because mlt lavs driven by drunk blueberries would just be easy WP; otherwise, the AV/tank balance would become ever closer to the true balance which is needed.

I want to address your "A squad with grenades focusing fire shouldnt destroy a tank"
That idea is ******* ********, if as a tank you let 6 infantry get within range of you for grenades to be effective then you are doing something wrong as a driver
It means you either drove up next to infantry cover, stopped stock still somewhere, went without even token infantry support, or anything else on a list of just being a bad player and driver

If you doing think a squad of players should be able to kill your toy then Ill give you that if you agree to needing a full tank crew to operate it

I'll agree to that when it takes more than one capsuleer to pilot a ship.

And since when were Dust mercs capsuleers


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CharCharOdell Shining Flame Amarr Empire 214	Posted - 2013.05.26 00:08:00 - [1] - Quote A general concencus among tankers and dedicaated (that means 7mil+ SP into just killing tanks- not having a Darkside or AV grenades!) is that mlt LAVs have far too much HP and AV grenades are replacing forge guns and swarm launchers as the primary anti-tank weapon, as most tanks are killed by these things. Why MLT LAVs need a nerf: From the tanker's point of view: 1) Cannot be one-shotted by a particle cannon- ridiculous that the biggest, baddest weapon in the game can't one-shot the cheapest behicle (which is the purpose of railguns in the first place) 2) They do not deserve to have vehicles that are that difficult to kill if they cost NO ISK or SP. I have very powerful logi LAVs because I spent the SP to get all the proto modules and passive skills to fit them the way I do. From the AV point of view: 1) There is no reason why a Wirykomi or Ishukone should have this much trouble killing a free vehicle for the same reason that particles can't. It'd be like if a Boundless HMG couldn't melt a starter assault fit at close range. Solution: Bring free LAVs HP down to 500 points total. This will allow even HMGs to kill them, as well as being OHK'd by any AV, or in just under 2 seconds by a large blaster. Also, it'd be an easy victim of impact damage if poorly driven- which they usually are. Why AV nades need a nerf: From the tanker's point of view: 1) For the most part, tankers respect the fact that someone who dedicated themselves to killing tanks should be able to do so with relative ease, as we have dedicated ourselves to destroying installations, vehicles, and infantry with relative ease. However, AV nades kill more tanks than any other weapon. In Chromosome, most tank kills were made by railguns, blasters, and forge guns- this is how it should be. Now, any assault trooper can walk up to a tank and do 4500 dmg in 3 seconds, and if they have a nanohive, (1500) X (seconds at nanohive). This means a single person can kill a madrugar by themselves with little to no SP spent, and 2000 isk spent to kill a 1.6 mil ISK vehicle. It simply is too powerful for its cost and skill requirement compared to swarm launchers, railguns, and forge guns. From the AV point of view: 1) AV nades have replaced forge guns and swarm launchers as the most effective AV weapon for skill and isk needed, as well as killing a lot fast. A swarm launcher can take 2 seconds to lock on, and then up to five to track and hit the target. A forge gun can take 2.5-6 seconds to charge, and then they must lead the target as well as be able to aim with a poor crosshair- that takes a lot of skill (especially at ranges beyond 300m). AV nades, however, take 1 second to throw, do as much damage as an ishukone forge, and home onto their targets. That would be like a person with a mass driver aiming into the sky, and having their rounds guided by satellite onto someone's head every single time. Ultimately, this affects the AV player by making him less valuable to the team. Nobody in their right mind bring someone who invested all their SP into killing tanks into a PC match where someone who can hold objectives, kill infantry, and kill tanks could work just as well. Preventing your team from being destroyed by tanks should require that you bring a fully specced forger or rail tank to the fight, rather than it being just good enough to have everyone bring AV nades. From my point of view as a tanker, rarely has a team brought someone with fully specced AV to the fight; instead, everyone just uses AV nades. The solution: Bring AV nade damage down to 600 for STD, 675 for ADV, and 750 for PRO. More than enough to kill a LAV, but not enough to solo any tank; yet able to drive a tank who is getting too careless away. These two issues, if solved as stated here, will make AV players much more valuable on the market, as well as tanks becoming much more survivable. If you support this, please only comment if you are dedicated to either vehicles or AV, with >70% of your total SP into either. -Char 10 mil purely into vehicles and have been tanking since Chromosome was released.
CharCharOdell Shining Flame Amarr Empire 215	Posted - 2013.05.26 05:11:00 - [2] - Quote #shamelessselfbump
CharCharOdell Shining Flame Amarr Empire 215	Posted - 2013.05.26 05:21:00 - [3] - Quote They cost nothing and can kill proto suits. I think it's fair.
CharCharOdell Shining Flame Amarr Empire 223	Posted - 2013.05.26 23:05:00 - [4] - Quote Obodiah Garro wrote: I agree with mlt LAV getting nerfed/removed but for the love of god AV grenades need a boost! Ive tossed em at some tanks and they barely dmg them at all. I'm gonna take a wild guess that it was a gunlogi and he had 3 hardeners on at once. if you aren't melting tanks with those, im willing to bet he has a few hardeners on. And on removing free LAVs: that won't solve the problem. They're still very cheap. Either mlt lavs need an HP nerf or they need to be completely removed and replaced with speeder bikes (much harder to run someone over when you have about .70m of ramming area vs 2m...or 4m with a tank. AV grenades should not be considered a viable for of AV. They need to be enough to OHK a mlt LAV, yes, but it's ridiculous that 6 people, all equipped with ADV AV grenades, can put out 27,000pts of damage in 3 seconds- no tank can move that fast from a standstill. One AV grenade does ~1500dmg. That is enough to make ANY tank driver back off, i promise you. But multiply that by 3 and you have enough to solo a madrugar- im sure any player worth their salt here has done it. Reducing ADV AV grenade damage down to 600dmg would still wreak havoc on a madrugar (600+0.30(600)), but it would require more teamwork for a squad of ARs to kill a tank. This, however, would give shield tanks an edge. That being said, most tankers can agree that shield tanks need some kind of edge, as they have drastically lower acceleration than an armor tank and cannot rep, harden, or take the same beating as armor tanks can. It would just about level the playing field because (600-0.30(600) is easily shrugged off. Ultimately, this wouldn't break the tank/av balance bc true AV players still have the power to decimate 95% of tankers before they cause any real damage. Now, the job of having good AV players or rail tanks in PC battles becomes paramount, as no squad of AR users can easily kill an experienced tanker- as it should be. Any quams about this would come from someone feeling it is unfair that they can't specialize in killing vehicles AND infantry equally as effectively, but that is the point. A forge gunner or professional swarmer spends all of his skill points to kill tanks; he should be extremely important if there is a tank wreaking havoc on his infantry. The infantry would benefit from these changes because mlt lavs driven by drunk blueberries would just be easy WP; otherwise, the AV/tank balance would become ever closer to the true balance which is needed.
CharCharOdell Shining Flame Amarr Empire 231	Posted - 2013.06.27 22:01:00 - [5] - Quote Void Echo wrote: Greg Dopson wrote: You got a proto tank Didnt think so. the swarms/forge and others are balanced against the proto tank, so just wait awhile and it will be balanced automagically. there are no prototype tanks, the realization of it is that the enforcers are CCP's official advanced tanks for now but the tank drivers have set up our own class of systems Militia Tanks Falchion & Vayu Standard Tanks Sica & Soma Advanced Tanks Gunnlogi & Madrugar. Prototype Tanks SoonTM LOL
CharCharOdell Shining Flame Amarr Empire 231	Posted - 2013.06.27 22:13:00 - [6] - Quote Delta 749 wrote: CharCharOdell wrote: Obodiah Garro wrote: I agree with mlt LAV getting nerfed/removed but for the love of god AV grenades need a boost! Ive tossed em at some tanks and they barely dmg them at all. I'm gonna take a wild guess that it was a gunlogi and he had 3 hardeners on at once. if you aren't melting tanks with those, im willing to bet he has a few hardeners on. And on removing free LAVs: that won't solve the problem. They're still very cheap. Either mlt lavs need an HP nerf or they need to be completely removed and replaced with speeder bikes (much harder to run someone over when you have about .70m of ramming area vs 2m...or 4m with a tank. AV grenades should not be considered a viable for of AV. They need to be enough to OHK a mlt LAV, yes, but it's ridiculous that 6 people, all equipped with ADV AV grenades, can put out 27,000pts of damage in 3 seconds- no tank can move that fast from a standstill. One AV grenade does ~1500dmg. That is enough to make ANY tank driver back off, i promise you. But multiply that by 3 and you have enough to solo a madrugar- im sure any player worth their salt here has done it. Reducing ADV AV grenade damage down to 600dmg would still wreak havoc on a madrugar (600+0.30(600)), but it would require more teamwork for a squad of ARs to kill a tank. This, however, would give shield tanks an edge. That being said, most tankers can agree that shield tanks need some kind of edge, as they have drastically lower acceleration than an armor tank and cannot rep, harden, or take the same beating as armor tanks can. It would just about level the playing field because (600-0.30(600) is easily shrugged off. Ultimately, this wouldn't break the tank/av balance bc true AV players still have the power to decimate 95% of tankers before they cause any real damage. Now, the job of having good AV players or rail tanks in PC battles becomes paramount, as no squad of AR users can easily kill an experienced tanker- as it should be. Any quams about this would come from someone feeling it is unfair that they can't specialize in killing vehicles AND infantry equally as effectively, but that is the point. A forge gunner or professional swarmer spends all of his skill points to kill tanks; he should be extremely important if there is a tank wreaking havoc on his infantry. The infantry would benefit from these changes because mlt lavs driven by drunk blueberries would just be easy WP; otherwise, the AV/tank balance would become ever closer to the true balance which is needed. I want to address your "A squad with grenades focusing fire shouldnt destroy a tank" That idea is ***** ******, if as a tank you let 6 infantry get within range of you for grenades to be effective then you are doing something wrong as a driver It means you either drove up next to infantry cover, stopped stock still somewhere, went without even token infantry support, or anything else on a list of just being a bad player and driver If you doing think a squad of players should be able to kill your toy then Ill give you that if you agree to needing a full tank crew to operate it I'll agree to that when it takes more than one capsuleer to pilot a ship.
CharCharOdell Shining Flame Amarr Empire 231	Posted - 2013.06.27 23:26:00 - [7] - Quote Delta 749 wrote: CharCharOdell wrote: Delta 749 wrote: CharCharOdell wrote: Obodiah Garro wrote: I agree with mlt LAV getting nerfed/removed but for the love of god AV grenades need a boost! Ive tossed em at some tanks and they barely dmg them at all. I'm gonna take a wild guess that it was a gunlogi and he had 3 hardeners on at once. if you aren't melting tanks with those, im willing to bet he has a few hardeners on. And on removing free LAVs: that won't solve the problem. They're still very cheap. Either mlt lavs need an HP nerf or they need to be completely removed and replaced with speeder bikes (much harder to run someone over when you have about .70m of ramming area vs 2m...or 4m with a tank. AV grenades should not be considered a viable for of AV. They need to be enough to OHK a mlt LAV, yes, but it's ridiculous that 6 people, all equipped with ADV AV grenades, can put out 27,000pts of damage in 3 seconds- no tank can move that fast from a standstill. One AV grenade does ~1500dmg. That is enough to make ANY tank driver back off, i promise you. But multiply that by 3 and you have enough to solo a madrugar- im sure any player worth their salt here has done it. Reducing ADV AV grenade damage down to 600dmg would still wreak havoc on a madrugar (600+0.30(600)), but it would require more teamwork for a squad of ARs to kill a tank. This, however, would give shield tanks an edge. That being said, most tankers can agree that shield tanks need some kind of edge, as they have drastically lower acceleration than an armor tank and cannot rep, harden, or take the same beating as armor tanks can. It would just about level the playing field because (600-0.30(600) is easily shrugged off. Ultimately, this wouldn't break the tank/av balance bc true AV players still have the power to decimate 95% of tankers before they cause any real damage. Now, the job of having good AV players or rail tanks in PC battles becomes paramount, as no squad of AR users can easily kill an experienced tanker- as it should be. Any quams about this would come from someone feeling it is unfair that they can't specialize in killing vehicles AND infantry equally as effectively, but that is the point. A forge gunner or professional swarmer spends all of his skill points to kill tanks; he should be extremely important if there is a tank wreaking havoc on his infantry. The infantry would benefit from these changes because mlt lavs driven by drunk blueberries would just be easy WP; otherwise, the AV/tank balance would become ever closer to the true balance which is needed. I want to address your "A squad with grenades focusing fire shouldnt destroy a tank" That idea is ***** ******, if as a tank you let 6 infantry get within range of you for grenades to be effective then you are doing something wrong as a driver It means you either drove up next to infantry cover, stopped stock still somewhere, went without even token infantry support, or anything else on a list of just being a bad player and driver If you doing think a squad of players should be able to kill your toy then Ill give you that if you agree to needing a full tank crew to operate it I'll agree to that when it takes more than one capsuleer to pilot a ship. And since when were Dust mercs capsuleers Have you ever played Eve? Do you understand the lore? Obviously not. If one clone can pilot a titan, one clone can pilot a tank. your argument is invalid, just on that.