DUST Search - Scouts need a Buff

Nexus Tau wrote:

Sontie wrote:

The scout is a lovely suit, but it can't compete in Planetary Conquest.

Why?

Anything they can do Logi can do better. And with the coming changes to the skill system, If you skill into proto logi, you can also get proto assault quite easily.

The logi can sprint just as fast with more HP, and 3 equipment slots. They can sprint to the middle objective just as fast as I can, drop more uplinks, hack faster, then lay down remote explosives and ammo to entrench their team on that letter. They can even attack me on my letter before I can finish the hack, and with their 3x ehp, while I'm sacrificing some EHP to run better speed modules, they will almost certainly beat me.

Did I mention that scouts have terrible CPU and PG? On my proto scout with lvl 3 core skills, I can't run 3 complex shields, a proto weapons, and anything else at complex lvl, or even adv. This is WITH sacrificing my sidearm. If I want to run dua enhanced kin cats, the best I can get for isk, I have to make even more sacrifices.

What would make the scout competitive in PC?

A 2nd equipment slot.

bonuses to active scanner and drop uplinks.

Either a base speed buff, or a skill thingy that increases the effectiveness of kin cats or reduces fitting costs.

I don't want scouts to become yet another, slightly faster, line soldier. I want to be able to fit my role of sneaky bugger ninja hacking enemy objectives and destroying critical drop uplinks behind enemy lines.

If I had to pick just one thing to make us better, I would say giving us a 2nd equipment slot and the cpu and pg needed to run decent equipment would do it. If you want to keep us from playing medic, add suit nerfs to the use of triage and nanite injectors or something.

I use scouts, they are monsters with Scrambler rifles.

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Delirium Inferno Edoras Corporation 333	Posted - 2013.05.20 15:38:00 - [31] - Quote Well what's funny is the best way to buff a scout in my opinion would be to give every other suit better scanning radius as well. It may sound silly, but when you think about it that would actually give purpose to the scout's low scan profile as opposed to other suits. And I believe the Adv Gallente Scout getting 2 high wasn't intentional, simply looked over. It should have only 1.
Hex Trickster Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2013.05.20 17:32:00 - [32] - Quote I like my scout suit at the moment i think there an unfinished class, with the addition more equipment i could see them becoming more useful First give them some more speed, i havent looked myself but if they move the same speed as a logi, that needs to change. Scouts should be fast running behind and stealing a point while the fights focused on a bait tank or something. Second more equipment mainly scout only things. Looking into eve frigates strongest ability is to slow and mess with the enemy. Perhaps some sort of 'web' equipment that the scout specialises in that will slow nearby suits. Another possible equipment idea is a false target detection array 'FTDA' which makes false images of enemy suits appear as a distraction. A cloak is also a great idea just needs to be balanced. Third is the PG CPU It needs either more or buff that reduces the req's of certain modules so that you dont get scout stacking complex shields. Anyway thats all the ideas iv got at 3am in the morning.
Surt gods end Demon Ronin 118	Posted - 2013.05.20 17:38:00 - [33] - Quote The only thing I would change is add one more low right box to advance suit. I have proto's if I need to use em, but I like the G1. In chrome I was able to add spawn uplink AND RE. Now I have to chose. Were we really that over powered to warrant the change?
Nexus Tau DIOS EX. Gentlemen's Agreement 35	Posted - 2013.05.20 17:49:00 - [34] - Quote Sontie wrote: The scout is a lovely suit, but it can't compete in Planetary Conquest. Why? Anything they can do Logi can do better. And with the coming changes to the skill system, If you skill into proto logi, you can also get proto assault quite easily. The logi can sprint just as fast with more HP, and 3 equipment slots. They can sprint to the middle objective just as fast as I can, drop more uplinks, hack faster, then lay down remote explosives and ammo to entrench their team on that letter. They can even attack me on my letter before I can finish the hack, and with their 3x ehp, while I'm sacrificing some EHP to run better speed modules, they will almost certainly beat me. Did I mention that scouts have terrible CPU and PG? On my proto scout with lvl 3 core skills, I can't run 3 complex shields, a proto weapons, and anything else at complex lvl, or even adv. This is WITH sacrificing my sidearm. If I want to run dua enhanced kin cats, the best I can get for isk, I have to make even more sacrifices. What would make the scout competitive in PC? A 2nd equipment slot. bonuses to active scanner and drop uplinks. Either a base speed buff, or a skill thingy that increases the effectiveness of kin cats or reduces fitting costs. I don't want scouts to become yet another, slightly faster, line soldier. I want to be able to fit my role of sneaky bugger ninja hacking enemy objectives and destroying critical drop uplinks behind enemy lines. If I had to pick just one thing to make us better, I would say giving us a 2nd equipment slot and the cpu and pg needed to run decent equipment would do it. If you want to keep us from playing medic, add suit nerfs to the use of triage and nanite injectors or something. I use scouts, they are monsters with Scrambler rifles.
Kleanur Guy SyNergy Gaming EoN. 242	Posted - 2013.05.20 17:54:00 - [35] - Quote Nexus Tau wrote: Sontie wrote: The scout is a lovely suit, but it can't compete in Planetary Conquest. Why? Anything they can do Logi can do better. And with the coming changes to the skill system, If you skill into proto logi, you can also get proto assault quite easily. The logi can sprint just as fast with more HP, and 3 equipment slots. They can sprint to the middle objective just as fast as I can, drop more uplinks, hack faster, then lay down remote explosives and ammo to entrench their team on that letter. They can even attack me on my letter before I can finish the hack, and with their 3x ehp, while I'm sacrificing some EHP to run better speed modules, they will almost certainly beat me. Did I mention that scouts have terrible CPU and PG? On my proto scout with lvl 3 core skills, I can't run 3 complex shields, a proto weapons, and anything else at complex lvl, or even adv. This is WITH sacrificing my sidearm. If I want to run dua enhanced kin cats, the best I can get for isk, I have to make even more sacrifices. What would make the scout competitive in PC? A 2nd equipment slot. bonuses to active scanner and drop uplinks. Either a base speed buff, or a skill thingy that increases the effectiveness of kin cats or reduces fitting costs. I don't want scouts to become yet another, slightly faster, line soldier. I want to be able to fit my role of sneaky bugger ninja hacking enemy objectives and destroying critical drop uplinks behind enemy lines. If I had to pick just one thing to make us better, I would say giving us a 2nd equipment slot and the cpu and pg needed to run decent equipment would do it. If you want to keep us from playing medic, add suit nerfs to the use of triage and nanite injectors or something. I use scouts, they are monsters with Scrambler rifles. I dont think that was the point of the post. Pew pew pew. That Duvolle Tac. AR just 3 hit killed you!
R'adeh Hunt The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 31	Posted - 2013.05.20 18:04:00 - [36] - Quote Nexus Tau wrote: Sontie wrote: The scout is a lovely suit, but it can't compete in Planetary Conquest. I use scouts, they are monsters with Scrambler rifles. Horrible horrible choice for a speed tanking suit. The second you over heat (and no matter how good you are, you WILL sometimes overheat), you can't run anymore...essentially leaving you with zero tank. Imo scouts aren't meant to work with light weapons at all. If you want to run a light weapon, an assault suit is almost ever better. The exception is a sniper who needs mobility to get up to difficult spots.
Bones McGavins TacoCat Industries 214	Posted - 2013.05.20 19:54:00 - [37] - Quote Nah scramblers are solid for a speed tanker as long as you are smart. The ability to front load your damage on targets youve flanked is awesome. Usually enemies respond to a flank because team mates responded after getting shot, if you can OHK with a charged scrambler shot you lessen that. You can minimize the time you are exposed to enemy fire. I run a light weapons AR/Scrambler scout all the time, and the ability to flank, and re-flank enemies is huge. It may not be as good on the k/d as other "classes" but I bet the team as a whole benifites from a scout who can flank the enemy, removing their retreat, picking off woudned targets and causing chaos in their group more than an assault attacking head on, or a scout with a shotty running through.
TheMarkOf22 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 180	Posted - 2013.05.20 20:10:00 - [38] - Quote DJINN Marauder wrote: Scouts are fine in PC if they use shotgun... I haven't see any scouts do good in about 20 PC matches, most don't even bother to choose scout. Scouts would get trashed against anyone good
Sontie Ill Omens EoN. 343	Posted - 2013.05.20 22:42:00 - [39] - Quote 100 meters passive scan range? How's you're math work out on that one? B = 10 m1 = .50 m2 = .50 m3 = .45 B + B(m1 + m2+ m3+ (m3.89)+(m3.57)+(m3*.28) = 32.33 (assuming eve stacking penalties) or 38 without stacking penalties
Sontie Ill Omens EoN. 343	Posted - 2013.05.20 22:45:00 - [40] - Quote I win most of my 1v1 fights in PC, but when I'm trying to win 1v1 fights, I'm going outside my role in PC. I'm the super fast guy dropping uplinks and destroying the bad guys. If there is ANY lag or framerate issues going on, then I have to completely give up any idea of engaging the enemy. I harass, draw fire, and run. But I'm thinking a logi can do what I do better.

Revelations 514 Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 39	Posted - 2013.05.20 23:06:00 - [41] - Quote I'd be happy if they just increased the Stam regen for Scouts to be higher than it is now. I shouldn't have to budget my stam as that should be my benefit as a scout. I really don't run much faster than a logi or even assault, and thats with kincats. I shouldn't be "tired" from trying to pull a scout move and jump a wall to take an unexpected approach. I know the stam cost for jumping stemmed from bunny hopping in the beta, (I did it too). However, since the Scout's speed has been nerfed considerably since then, it is now unnecessary as bunny hopping will just get you killed. Therefore, the only time I seem to run out of stam is when legitimately jumping over a wall or other object, but it takes me 3 min to do so as I regen after every 2 jumps. Would be nice to get rid of that stam for jumping rule now that it's no longer necessary. It only seems to punish legitimate usage anymore.
CRAZYHORSE ONE EIGHT CowTek IT Infotech 20	Posted - 2013.05.20 23:18:00 - [42] - Quote I do miss my Scout Type-II from last build. That's really all I want back. I don't even care about the proto scout suits. Just the old type-II was great. A bit slower than the type-I an no sidearm were a good trade off for the extra equipment slot. Disappointing that in this build the one scout suit with two equipment slots was aurum only and then got promptly removed when they realised that there was no isk equivalent :(
DJINN Marauder Purgatorium of the Damned 644	Posted - 2013.05.20 23:23:00 - [43] - Quote TheMarkOf22 wrote: DJINN Marauder wrote: Scouts are fine in PC if they use shotgun... I haven't see any scouts do good in about 20 PC matches, most don't even bother to choose scout. Scouts would get trashed against anyone good Me and maple seem to do pretty good/decent in our PC battles. However that might be because most of our PC fights are in the city maps, in which scout shottys (or just shottys in general) dominate. Anyhow I would actually love for scouts to get a buff. However I believe that ATM they are pretty decent.
TheMarkOf22 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 180	Posted - 2013.05.20 23:30:00 - [44] - Quote DJINN Marauder wrote: TheMarkOf22 wrote: DJINN Marauder wrote: Scouts are fine in PC if they use shotgun... I haven't see any scouts do good in about 20 PC matches, most don't even bother to choose scout. Scouts would get trashed against anyone good Me and maple seem to do pretty good/decent in our PC battles. However that might be because most of our PC fights are in the city maps, in which scout shottys (or just shottys in general) dominate. Anyhow I would actually love for scouts to get a buff. However I believe that ATM they are pretty decent. I would like to run scout but then I realized it's impossible to carry the gear i want 3 complex shields 1 proto shotgun 1 proto nova knives 1 proto grenade 1 proto re You can't even fit it
DJINN Marauder Purgatorium of the Damned 644	Posted - 2013.05.20 23:34:00 - [45] - Quote TheMarkOf22 wrote: DJINN Marauder wrote: TheMarkOf22 wrote: DJINN Marauder wrote: Scouts are fine in PC if they use shotgun... I haven't see any scouts do good in about 20 PC matches, most don't even bother to choose scout. Scouts would get trashed against anyone good Me and maple seem to do pretty good/decent in our PC battles. However that might be because most of our PC fights are in the city maps, in which scout shottys (or just shottys in general) dominate. Anyhow I would actually love for scouts to get a buff. However I believe that ATM they are pretty decent. I would like to run scout but then I realized it's impossible to carry the gear i want 3 complex shields 1 proto shotgun 1 proto nova knives 1 proto grenade 1 proto re You can't even fit it That is true :( For the minmitar, the CPU is really holding you back... On the Gallente which I use... The pg holds you back
Ludvig Enraga KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 198	Posted - 2013.05.21 00:03:00 - [46] - Quote Ignoble Son wrote: Ahh, so the buff scout threads begin. I used to be a diehard scout fan, way back in chromosome, and I was very sad to see them go. shakes his head But I dropped that ***** like a bad habit for uprising, and I feel sorry for anyone not smart enough to have done the same. U rite, drinking coolaid is way easier.
Ludvig Enraga KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 199	Posted - 2013.05.21 00:10:00 - [47] - Quote Rusty Shallows wrote: TheMarkOf22 wrote: scouts have no cpu/pg, they cant even hold protogear thats the problem Heavies are being hit with a similar problem. Vehicles lost their grid buff skill. The dropsuit fitting buffs (and fitting discounts) in the skill tree have been made much tighter SP wise. My gut tells me it's about isk sinks increasing the time to higher end fits and thereby decreasing the number of people who can field "perfect" fits right now. I think it's not what he is saying. It's not that everyone suffers from PG/CPU cuts equally. It hit scouts a lot more than others because they started out with smaller PG/CPU. All suits use the same mods - shield extender's and rechargers and weapon upgrades being the most common ones. It's just that an assault suit and logi can fit the modules and scout can't. For example, I run my scout with an empty high slot I just run out of grid. It makes no sense why CCP thinks that scouts need less grid since scouts equip exactly the same mods as other suits.
Ludvig Enraga KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 199	Posted - 2013.05.21 00:14:00 - [48] - Quote Jaron Pollard wrote: Sontie wrote: I think heavies need a slight damage nerf (5%?) and a slightly high hp buff (15%) to fit their role as the ultimate defender. But Scouts too need something to fit their role on the battlefield. Stuff that works on the field, not just looks good on paper (you can't bring a knife to a gun fight in PC and be effective outside of luck, and lolz @ scan bonus) Don't underestimate the value of enemy detection. What enemy detection? As a minmatar scout I don't have enough grid to equip the active scanner. And as far as built in suit bonuses my range of detection unlike galentine scout is the same as the other suits. What does minmatar scout get? that's right a bonus to melee in a game that's run by tanks and TARs.
Delirium Inferno Edoras Corporation 343	Posted - 2013.05.21 14:50:00 - [49] - Quote Sontie wrote: 100 meters passive scan range? How's you're math work out on that one? B = 10 m1 = .50 m2 = .50 m3 = .45 B + B(m1 + m2+ m3+ (m3.89)+(m3.57)+(m3.28) = 32.33 (assuming eve stacking penalties) or 38 without stacking penalties Start with 10 meter. 50% bonus from Scout Lv 5 = 15 meters 50% bonus from Range Amplification Skill Lv5 = 15 1.5 = 22.5 m (yes, it works like this) 45% bonus from 1st complex range mod = 22.5 * 1.45 = 32.6 m 45% bonus from 2nd complex range mod = 32.6 * 1.45 = 47.3 m (this mod has no stacking penalty) 45% bonus from 3rd complex range mod = 47.3 * 1.45 = 68.6 m 45% bonus from 4th complex range mod = 68.6 * 1.45 = 99.4 m
Sontie Ill Omens EoN. 353	Posted - 2013.05.21 14:55:00 - [50] - Quote That's not how it works with EVERYTHING else, but ok. I'll run some tests.

Bones McGavins TacoCat Industries 221	Posted - 2013.05.21 14:59:00 - [51] - Quote Yeah im pretty sure mods only impact the base level, not the base+mods. Same with skills. Could be wrong though. Im debating whether or not to spec out of light/scout frames with the optional SP respec. I love the mobility of the scout but to be honest, I use ARs and SR so in 1on1 fights I might as well be a medium frame. But maybe if I get some kinetic catalysts in a medium frame I can still sprint around like a madman while being able to shield tank just as well?
Delirium Inferno Edoras Corporation 343	Posted - 2013.05.21 15:02:00 - [52] - Quote Well I was always told that mods in Dust are compounded. Also all the mods that have a stacking penalty say so in the description, range amplifiers do not.
Spacetits CDXX Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 316	Posted - 2013.05.21 16:00:00 - [53] - Quote Bones McGavins wrote: ... I made a mistake going Gallante (i didnt realize the pro suit LOSES a high slot compared to advanced, that is what bums me out) ... This is almost certainly an error, consider that Gallente Scout progression goes 1/2, 2/2, 1/4 and it really seems like the middle one should be 1/3 to make some kind of sense. Probably it accidentally got the Minnie values which are 2/2 for adv. Bug thread
Delirium Inferno Edoras Corporation 344	Posted - 2013.05.21 16:34:00 - [54] - Quote I can confirm that mods take the percentage of the current value, not the base value, when applying the percentages. How did I do this? Took my Gallente Medium Prototype suit which has 300 CPU I have dropsuit core upgrades at 2 and dropsuit electronics at 2, that is a 2% bonus and a 10% bonus 300 * 1.02 * 1.10 = 336.6. The value that appeared on the fitting screen is 337. If it was instead added to be a 12% bonus, 300 * 1.12 = 336, so it should of been 336 and not 337. So that confirms that various skills that affect the same attribute are compounded, not added. Then I took a basic CPU upgrade which does 16% increase. 16% of 300 is 48, so if it did take the base value then we'd expect 337 + 48 = 385. The value that showed up was 390. This makes sense if we compounded, since 337 * 1.16 = 389.76 which gets rounded to the observed 390. For good measure I added another basic CPU upgrade to see if this yet again compounds with the new value or simply adds to the first module. Now CPU upgrades do have a stacking penalty in the description, unlike range amplifiers. If we expected it to add to the module, that would be 16 + (16 * .87) = 29.92%. 337 * 1.2992 = 437.8 so we should expect 438. If it were compounded then 337 * 1.16 * (1 + (.16 * .87)) = 445.3, so we should expect 446. Drum roll The observed value is 445 So slight error, this is probably coming from using 337 instead of 336.6. Anyways, I believe that makes the case that modules are compounded and thus a Gallente Scout can get up to about 100 meters passive scanning.
Vixi Starhart Vherokior Combat Logistics Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2013.05.21 17:05:00 - [55] - Quote I disagree with everyone wanting more speed. I just want more profile dampening; I want scouts to be stealthier, not faster.
Delirium Inferno Edoras Corporation 344	Posted - 2013.05.21 17:09:00 - [56] - Quote Vixi Starhart wrote: I disagree with everyone wanting more speed. I just want more profile dampening; I want scouts to be stealthier, not faster. But since the base value for all dropsuits scan radius is 10 meters it really doesn't matter how low your profile signature is as long as you aren't running close enough behind someone's back that you can almost touch. Everyone's scan radius needs to be increased so the scouts profile dampening actually has a benefit.
Bones McGavins TacoCat Industries 226	Posted - 2013.05.21 17:10:00 - [57] - Quote Profile dampening doesnt matter at all as long as nobody can scan passed their own feet. Like it has been stated before, a buff to scouts would actually be to increase scan radius across the board so low profile actually has an advantage.
Vixi Starhart Vherokior Combat Logistics Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2013.05.21 17:16:00 - [58] - Quote Delirium Inferno wrote: Vixi Starhart wrote: I disagree with everyone wanting more speed. I just want more profile dampening; I want scouts to be stealthier, not faster. But since the base value for all dropsuits scan radius is 10 meters it really doesn't matter how low your profile signature is as long as you aren't running close enough behind someone's back that you can almost touch. Everyone's scan radius needs to be increased so the scouts profile dampening actually has a benefit. Well, that's a problem of its own. Scan radius does need a buff across the board, but even then, scan mechanics are so poorly implemented I don't know what's going on 90% of the time. Sometimes guys show up on my radar when they're behind two walls, sometimes they don't show up when I'm looking right at them. There needs to be a damned manual or some kind of comprehensive explanation on how scanning, dampening, and profiles work. This way the dampening skill/module becomes attractive to scouts.
LT Dans Legs The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 95	Posted - 2013.05.21 17:23:00 - [59] - Quote They should just take scout out of the game. They look stupid running and leaping around like spiderman. It just looks stupid. Who goes jumping and moving around like that in a battle? It looks like a Lucky Charms commercial.
LT Dans Legs The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 95	Posted - 2013.05.21 17:25:00 - [60] - Quote Sorry. I looked like a troll. It was just my honest opinion.



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