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Daedric Lothar
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
322
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Posted - 2013.05.16 12:23:00 -
[91] - Quote
Maybe you should be like the Gallente and overthrow your government?
Then you wouldn't have this problem?
Just asking? |
Allah's Snackbar
Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2013.05.16 12:45:00 -
[92] - Quote
Daedric Lothar wrote:Maybe you should be like the Gallente and overthrow your government?
Then you wouldn't have this problem?
Just asking? The CCP government? You even reading this thread or just typing crap dipshit.
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RedRebelCork
Ahrendee Mercenaries
63
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Posted - 2013.05.16 13:21:00 -
[93] - Quote
Laheon wrote: It's more like, "We, CCP, have developed a game exclusively for your platform, and you've gone out of your way to provide us with the tools necessary for us to succeed on this platform. We thank you for this. Also, thank you for using your servers to distribute our game. In return, we'll allow you to raise the prices in accordance with other prices in that region for your own take."
All games in the Oceania region are overpriced on PSN. Not just CCP's. Go ahead, compare it. Most NZ and Aussie gamers complain that they have to pay 50% more than everyone else across all games, all platforms, not just DUST.
Again, don't try to pin the blame on CCP when CCP has fair pricing for everywhere for EVE Online, and the only difference here is that the package is distributed through Sony.
I wouldn't say I'm pinning the blame on CCP, not all of it anyway. I'm just calling a spade a spade. People that think CCP have/had no pricing input into how their product is sold are not using their heads.
For example, let's imagine if SOE decided to release Planetside 2 (in many ways similar to Dust514) for PS4 later this year. They might think to themselves they'd make more money selling microtransactions in Planetside where they get 100% of the sales price than they would conducting microtranscation in Dust514, where they only make a % commission. Imagine then that they decided they steal Dust514 market share by jacking the prices on all Dust514 transaction.
Do you really think there'd be no mechanism in place for CCP to veto those price distortions? You don't think the legal team that CCP employ don't make sure these contracts are ironclad before signing commitments for millions of dollars of dev work (that goes into making and marketing Dust over the last few years)?
Maybe I'm giving CCP too much credit here, but I doubt it. People rag on CCP all the time for various reasons. There's one thing I'm sure of though and that's that CCP taken as a whole are far from stupid. |
Jaron Pollard
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
22
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Posted - 2013.05.16 13:36:00 -
[94] - Quote
RedRebelCork wrote:Jaron Pollard wrote:RedRebelCork wrote:
You're assuming that CCP had no input into pricing plans for their product globally, which is of course absurd. Noone put a gun to CCP's head when it came time to agreeing pricing for Dust514 related products and services.
This is rational discourse.
Good. Then where's the part where you recognise the fact that CCP give Sony the same price for everything, and Sony ups it for their take, as a middle-man, depending on the region? Let me put it this way. CCP do set all their prices the same, and you'd know this if you play EVE, because everyone around the world pays the same price, based only on their currency exchange rate. This is like buying wholesale, straight from the manufacturer, because EVE is both developed and published entirely by CCP. DUST, however, while developed by CCP, is on Sony proprietary hardware, and is published by Sony, and distributed by Sony. That then is like buying retail, where you go to the store (Sony) to purchase the goods produced by the manufacturer (CCP). I'm assuming nothing. I know CCP have a price to set for stuff you choose to (but don't have to) buy, but it's standardised based on what the item is worth in-game in general isk/plex/aurum conversion rates, which is how they maintain consistency on the EVE/DUST economies, so that they only have one major input to consider instead of hundreds of different ones because they charge different regions different prices. The problem is with Sony. In fact, it's with the entire IT industry as a whole when buying hardware or software in Australia at all. That's why there's a parliamentary inquest into it involving Microsoft, Apple, Sony, IBM, and others, who have been called to answer as to why they charge more in Australia. This is not an unknown problem, and not something exclusive to DUST. But it exists in DUST because of Sony, not CCP. No. Once again you're jumping to illogical conclusions. Given that PSN is the sole distribution platform, and that Dust514 represents a significant financial and brand investment on the part of CCP you are assuming that their channel-partner agreement with SOE is as follows: "We CCP, recommend you the publisher (SOE) retail our product at a certain price, but you can really sell if for whatever price you feel like". Does that really sound like a realistic scenario? CCP putting the survival of Dust514 at the hands of SOE arbitrary pricing? It takes two to tango, whatever price SOE is selling for is at the permission of CCP. It may very well be too late for CCP to affect this issue given that agreements have already been made, but that doesn't let them off the hook or remove their responsibility to their fans in ALL regions.
Do you even understand how content trading works? CCP sell the content to Sony, Sony sells it to the player. It's just like electricity. The company that produces the electricity at a plant sells it to a retailer, the retailer then sends you the bill. Stop accusing me of jumping to "illogical conclusions" if you're not even going to read what I am saying, what I am explaining, regarding games marketing.
You claim for example "that Dust514 represents a significant financial and brand investment on the part of CCP" when it was Sony who invested over 20 million in the product, and it was EVE subs, EVE PLEX purchases and other online store profits that paid for the rest. So you're basing your "logic" on stuff you're making assumptions about yourself, or just outright don't even know what you're talking about. You think Sony have no right to make some of that money back with a retail agreement? You think CCP have the right to publish on Sony proprietary equipment without any say or benefit by Sony themselves? That's where you're mistaken. Sony is in control of all PSN store products for ALL games that are published on their console. Microsoft do the same thing with Xbox DLC. And Australians pay higher prices than everyone else for ALL of it.
And you're still completely ignoring the fact that CCP publish EVE online themselves, distribute it themselves, and DON'T charge Australians any more than anyone else. You can confirm that fact by asking an American and an Australian how much they pay for subs and PLEX and they will give you almost the exact same figure, representing similar dollar values on the market. So before you go jumping down CCP's throat, you first need to actually demonstrate some precedent of the behaviour of overpricing, which they simply don't do, and also demonstrate conclusively how Sony is completely uninvolved in any way.
When you've done then, then you can accuse me of failing logic. But until you understand the meaning of the word, all you're capable of it seems is the ironic projection of you're own lack of understanding of the matter.
Bottom line is, CCP don't control the price the customer pays for it on the Sony store, only the price that they sell that content to Sony for in order for Sony to distribute it on THEIR proprietary hardware. No one is saying CCP don't have input on their prices. But we're talking about the price the consumer is paying, which is the OUTPUT by Sony. Are we getting a clue yet? |
Jaron Pollard
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
22
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 13:44:00 -
[95] - Quote
I'll simplify, with an example. CCP might charge say $2 worth of Aurum for an item. Then Sony puts their additional charges on that. For the US, it might be 10% more, making it only $2.20. For Australia, they might charge 50% more, making it $3 total. Why? Ask Sony, they're the ones jacking the prices, not CCP. If CCP were to lower the price to $1, it would then be $1.10 in the US, and $1.50 in Australia, and we'll still be paying more. |
stormyuk
DUST University Ivy League
26
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Posted - 2013.05.16 13:52:00 -
[96] - Quote
Laheon wrote:
It's more like, "We, CCP, have developed a game exclusively for your platform, and you've gone out of your way to provide us with the tools necessary for us to succeed on this platform. We thank you for this. Also, thank you for using your servers to distribute our game. In return, we'll allow you to raise the prices in accordance with other prices in that region for your own take."
All games in the Oceania region are overpriced on PSN. Not just CCP's. Go ahead, compare it. Most NZ and Aussie gamers complain that they have to pay 50% more than everyone else across all games, all platforms, not just DUST.
Again, don't try to pin the blame on CCP when CCP has fair pricing for everywhere for EVE Online, and the only difference here is that the package is distributed through Sony.
To be honest if it is SOE who are doing this then they need to learn some consistency. I posted an example elsewhere but it works here.
Example in the UK
Thomas Was Alone (recent addition to the PSN store)
UK price -ú5.99 = $9.11 (its actually $9.99 in the US so cheaper in the UK)
Dust.
Merc Pack -ú15.99 = $24.33 ($19.99 and cheaper in US)
4000 Aurum -ú1.59 = $2.42 ($1.99 and cheaper in US)
Seems SOE just need to sort themselves out. |
Winsaucerer
The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION
107
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Posted - 2013.05.16 13:55:00 -
[97] - Quote
stormyuk wrote:Seems SOE just need to sort themselves out.
And CCP should do what it can in the meantime, including any of the two suggestions in my OP, as well as persuading Sony to be sensible. |
Operative 1171 Aajli
PSU GHOST SYNDICATE DARKSTAR ARMY
9
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Posted - 2013.05.16 13:58:00 -
[98] - Quote
Protip: Move away from a socialist country. Less taxes and more fun! |
Jaron Pollard
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
22
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 14:03:00 -
[99] - Quote
Operative 1171 Aajli wrote:Protip: Move away from a socialist country. Less taxes and more fun!
Protip: Australia isn't socialist, and this isn't about politics, it's about capitalism and how it hurts people. This is how it hurts people, because the only real reason these companies have for charging Australians more is because we've demonstrated a willingness to pay more by not understanding how much cheaper it is overseas. There are no taxes or exchange rates that justify the extreme markups that we are subjected to across the IT product range, including hardware and software, hence why there is currently a parliamentary inquiry into their pricing for Australians.
Besides, I'd rather live in a socialist country than a puritan one. But that's off topic too. Sorry, I wouldn't go off topic like that so much if others were able to stick to the point. |
RedRebelCork
Ahrendee Mercenaries
63
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 14:26:00 -
[100] - Quote
To rebut your points in no particular order:
1. I know CCP don't gouge on EVE Online. I applaud them for that. However, a history of good behaviour does not preclude a company from conducting bad behaviour. Precedence makes no difference to the discussion, it's like a character witness at a trial, incidental but doesn't make or break the case. Anyway, I'm not saying they're gouging, I'm saying they're allowing gouging to take place in this instance.
2. "Do you even understand how content trading works?" It works whatever way the two parties engaging in production and distribution of that content trading agree on. Do you KNOW for a fact that CCP sell for X and Sony sell for X+Y? I mean do you know for certain. You don't I'd wager, nor do I. I'm just stating the obvious in voicing a doubt that CCP do not have any contractual built-in price floors or ceilings for content.
3. "CCP sell the content to Sony, Sony sells it to the player. It's just like electricity. The company that produces the electricity at a plant sells it to a retailer, the retailer then sends you the bill" I think that's an inaccurate depiction of the scenario in this case. The electricity generation companies produce a set supply of capacity which the retailers purchase in bulk to resell. CCP don't sell to Sony, and Sony don't buy anything from CCP. It's a distribution channel. Sony sell a virtual product with infinite supply. Sony don't say to CCP "We need 15,000 merc packs, here's $30,000". They sell the merc packs and give CCP whatever is due to them. Whether SOE derive their profits from selling above a margin dictated by CCP or whether they simply recoup a % of transactions is another unknown that we can make unfounded assumptions on if we want.
My bottom line: You're forgetting it takes two to tango once again. Yes SOE own the PS Store. But the partnership between CCP and SOE is far from the norm. Whatever agreements are in place are likely not to be the standard cookie cutter agreements that every other Tom, **** or Harry sign going into PSN. That much is clear based on the unprecedented steps SOE have made to accomodate Dust514 on PSN. We don't know the details of the agreements made so most of what I'm guessing (and you flat out claiming to be the case) is just conjecture.
Another curve ball: Imagine in a years time Dust514 becomes the #1 console FPS. BF and COD are languishing in the gutter and things look great. Imagine SOE decide they want to double all transaction costs and make a quick buck (an EA-esque move). Given that CCP are relying on the income of microtransactions to pay for this game and make it profitable do you think it likely that CCP would allow SOE sole decision making power like that? You do I think, I don't think CCP would put themselves in such a vulnerable position without certain contractual guarantees.
Lastly, I can't find any reference to Sony spending $20,000,000 on the development of Dust514. If they have spent that much I'm surprised they're not in the forums flaming with the rest of us about why there are still so many bugs to iron out. |
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Jaron Pollard
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
23
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Posted - 2013.05.16 14:54:00 -
[101] - Quote
RedRebelCork wrote:To rebut your points in no particular order:
1. I know CCP don't gouge on EVE Online. I applaud them for that. However, a history of good behaviour does not preclude a company from conducting bad behaviour. Precedence makes no difference to the discussion, it's like a character witness at a trial, incidental but doesn't make or break the case. Anyway, I'm not saying they're gouging, I'm saying they're allowing gouging to take place in this instance.
In other words, just ignore this point because I should take your word for precedence not being a factor to consider, while just forgetting how I just explained that it's not up to CCP to deny Sony their method for pricing. Great rebuttal there. Is argument from ignorance a rebuttal?
Quote:2. "Do you even understand how content trading works?" It works whatever way the two parties engaging in production and distribution of that content trading agree on. Do you KNOW for a fact that CCP sell for X and Sony sell for X+Y? I mean do you know for certain. You don't I'd wager, nor do I. I'm just stating the obvious in voicing a doubt that CCP do not have any contractual built-in price floors or ceilings for content.
Yes, I do know for a fact, it's not just what they stated, but it's what happens. It was the same for Bungie and DLC for Halo, Turn 10 and DLC for Forza, and it's the same for anyone else that wants to publish their product on PROPRIETARY HARDWARE, another point that you've conveniently ignored. Again, great rebuttal. Is shifting the goalposts a rebuttal?
Quote:3. "CCP sell the content to Sony, Sony sells it to the player. It's just like electricity. The company that produces the electricity at a plant sells it to a retailer, the retailer then sends you the bill" I think that's an inaccurate depiction of the scenario in this case. The electricity generation companies produce a set supply of capacity which the retailers purchase in bulk to resell. CCP don't sell to Sony, and Sony don't buy anything from CCP. It's a distribution channel. Sony sell a virtual product with infinite supply. Sony don't say to CCP "We need 15,000 merc packs, here's $30,000". They sell the merc packs and give CCP whatever is due to them. Whether SOE derive their profits from selling above a margin dictated by CCP or whether they simply recoup a % of transactions is another unknown that we can make unfounded assumptions on if we want.
In what case? You think this is a special case? DLC is developed by the devs, and to distribute it on PROPRIETARY HARDWARE they have to go through the PROPRIETARY RETAILER. I have tried to drop this clue a number of times, but I don't know.... is argument from cluelessness a rebuttal? There has to be a model constructed around how CCP actually get their money for the DLC. It is done by "selling" it to Sony, but while Sony don't need to buy digital content in bulk because it's entirely copyable, they pay CCP an assigner royalty that is analogous to CCP's sale price when content is purchased by consumers. That is the model, and it is entirely analogous to how electricity is provided and sold, with the exception of pre-paying for service in bulk. The way the pricing is determined by the retailer, however, is exactly the same.
Quote:My bottom line: You're forgetting it takes two to tango once again. Yes SOE own the PS Store. But the partnership between CCP and SOE is far from the norm. Whatever agreements are in place are likely not to be the standard cookie cutter agreements that every other Tom, **** or Harry sign going into PSN. That much is clear based on the unprecedented steps SOE have made to accomodate Dust514 on PSN. We don't know the details of the agreements made so most of what I'm guessing (and you flat out claiming to be the case) is just conjecture.
I'm not forgetting anything, but you're ignoring a lot. You're trying to claim that CCP has the final be-all and end-all say of content, and anyone that argues otherwise must be claiming that they have no say whatsoever. This is a false dichotomy, and I've tried to explain why, but you clearly have your heart set on blaming CCP entirely.
Quote:Another curve ball: Imagine in a years time Dust514 becomes the #1 console FPS. BF and COD are languishing in the gutter and things look great. Imagine SOE decide they want to double all transaction costs and make a quick buck (an EA-esque move). Given that CCP are relying on the income of microtransactions to pay for this game and make it profitable do you think it likely that CCP would allow SOE sole decision making power like that? You do I think, I don't think CCP would put themselves in such a vulnerable position without certain contractual guarantees.
I don't deal in speculation, and I don't pretend that CCP can do no evil. I was there for Incarna, I was there for the BoB scandals and I was there for a great many other fuckups, so you kinda get to know when CCP is ******* up and when it's beyond their control by noticing patterns. This is not a CCP problem, and making it one will only shift the focus away from where the focus should be: Sony. This is detrimental to making prices cheaper in Australia in general, because it will go no where.
TBC |
Jaron Pollard
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
23
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 14:55:00 -
[102] - Quote
Quote:Lastly, I can't find any reference to Sony spending $20,000,000 on the development of Dust514. If they have spent that much I'm surprised they're not in the forums flaming with the rest of us about why there are still so many bugs to iron out.
I'll concede this was actually my mistake. The $20 million actually came from somewhere else. It still doesn't change the fact that even if you yourself want to publish something on proprietary hardware like the PS3, Sony still gets to determine how much they distribute it for based on the price you sell them your content for. And it is entirely up to them. Likewise, it is entirely up to you if you want to pull that product from their service entirely in protest, but I'm pretty sure that would be a breach of contract. |
Winsaucerer
The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION
108
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 04:20:00 -
[103] - Quote
This seems to me a pointless debate. Jaron, maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong. There's no point us guessing. I want to know what CCP can do for us. If they can't change Sony's prices (and maybe they can), then there are other options. That's what the OP was about. |
Crucias Soulreaver
Gothic Wars Consortium
2
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Posted - 2013.05.17 08:42:00 -
[104] - Quote
- CCP did not tell Sony to charge us extortionate markups - True
- AUS/NZ gamers are a minority on CCP's servers - True
- AUS/NZ pay more for all Sony digital product - True
- There is no digital sales tax in Aus or NZ for purchases under $1000 - True
- DUST prices exceed currency conversion & tax prices by ~35% minimum , ~50% maximum - True
All of the above facts point to it being Sony's greed at fault. However, the second bullet point is EXACTLY why CCP should care; Sony is going to ignore all our petitions and complaints BECAUSE we are a minority and it will take the legal action of the two countries governments to make headway without CCP (which, because of our current government, means NZ is buggered twice over).
CCP are entitled to lodge a formal complaint with Sony over the blatant abuse of their product. The fact that other publishers do not bother has no effect on the moral obligations of this situation.
People in this thread need to stop blaming CCP, and focus on demanding the same consumer equality CCP shows to it's EVE customers. |
Jaron Pollard
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
46
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 08:50:00 -
[105] - Quote
Crucias Soulreaver wrote:
- CCP did not tell Sony to charge us extortionate markups - True
- AUS/NZ gamers are a minority on CCP's servers - True
- AUS/NZ pay more for all Sony digital product - True
- There is no digital sales tax in Aus or NZ for purchases under $1000 - True
- DUST prices exceed currency conversion & tax prices by ~35% minimum , ~50% maximum - True
All of the above facts point to it being Sony's greed at fault. However, the second bullet point is EXACTLY why CCP should care; Sony is going to ignore all our petitions and complaints BECAUSE we are a minority and it will take the legal action of the two countries governments to make headway without CCP (which, because of our current government, means NZ is buggered twice over). CCP are entitled to lodge a formal complaint with Sony over the blatant abuse of their product. The fact that other publishers do not bother has no effect on the moral obligations of this situation. People in this thread need to stop blaming CCP, and focus on demanding the same consumer equality CCP shows to it's EVE customers.
I can't say I would blame CCP for doing nothing, because it would be a very lengthy process to go through, they have no obligation to go through it, and I would rather they focus on developing the game. I've posted enough of these threads about pricing in Australia myself to know, however, that the best we can do, and the best CCP can do also, is wait to see how the parliamentary inquiry goes into IT pricing. It's politics, so it'll take some time, but patience is a key factor here because if the inquiry fails to produce results, then we are going to need our energy. If we expend it all now, and direct it at the wrong source, eventually we are just going to get tired of not getting any results ourselves, and just give up, in which case, they all start charging even more because they know they have us beat. And I'm not just talking about Sony - IBM, Apple (puke), Microsoft, HP, Intel, etc, all do the same thing because they know we'll pay. |
Knightshade Belladonna
WH0 G1VSA FL0CK GLOCKS
291
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Posted - 2013.05.17 09:12:00 -
[106] - Quote
ok, so clearly final pricing is left to sony and sony are doing the wallet raping not ccp. OP gave 2 good suggestions, and I have another.. however we do not know the specifics of ther contract and if ccp stated whether or not they would be able to do off psn sales.
My idea here is, since eve and dust are linked together.. we have the option to purchase eve game time codes, and exchange them for Dust aurum. Same concept as exchanging them for 2 plex, aurum , some promotion they running or whatever on eve, but have the option to choose applying it to Dust... probably won't happen but just a thought..
My final guess though is that knowing sony, somewhere in the contract is a clause preventing ccp from even selling outside of the PSN, or if they do they still owe sony a cut thereby decreasing potential profits for ccp.
so in conclusion.. sony sucks balls and hopefully they answer for their needless price gouging |
Winsaucerer
The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION
113
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 02:10:00 -
[107] - Quote
I have made a post regarding this for the CPM. |
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