DUST Search - What can CCP do to protect AU and NZ customers?

RedRebelCork wrote:

Jaron Pollard wrote:

RedRebelCork wrote:

You're assuming that CCP had no input into pricing plans for their product globally, which is of course absurd. Noone put a gun to CCP's head when it came time to agreeing pricing for Dust514 related products and services.

This is rational discourse.

Good. Then where's the part where you recognise the fact that CCP give Sony the same price for everything, and Sony ups it for their take, as a middle-man, depending on the region? Let me put it this way. CCP do set all their prices the same, and you'd know this if you play EVE, because everyone around the world pays the same price, based only on their currency exchange rate. This is like buying wholesale, straight from the manufacturer, because EVE is both developed and published entirely by CCP. DUST, however, while developed by CCP, is on Sony proprietary hardware, and is published by Sony, and distributed by Sony. That then is like buying retail, where you go to the store (Sony) to purchase the goods produced by the manufacturer (CCP). I'm assuming nothing. I know CCP have a price to set for stuff you choose to (but don't have to) buy, but it's standardised based on what the item is worth in-game in general isk/plex/aurum conversion rates, which is how they maintain consistency on the EVE/DUST economies, so that they only have one major input to consider instead of hundreds of different ones because they charge different regions different prices.

The problem is with Sony. In fact, it's with the entire IT industry as a whole when buying hardware or software in Australia at all. That's why there's a parliamentary inquest into it involving Microsoft, Apple, Sony, IBM, and others, who have been called to answer as to why they charge more in Australia. This is not an unknown problem, and not something exclusive to DUST. But it exists in DUST because of Sony, not CCP.

No. Once again you're jumping to illogical conclusions. Given that PSN is the sole distribution platform, and that Dust514 represents a significant financial and brand investment on the part of CCP you are assuming that their channel-partner agreement with SOE is as follows:

"We CCP, recommend you the publisher (SOE) retail our product at a certain price, but you can really sell if for whatever price you feel like".

Does that really sound like a realistic scenario? CCP putting the survival of Dust514 at the hands of SOE arbitrary pricing? It takes two to tango, whatever price SOE is selling for is at the permission of CCP. It may very well be too late for CCP to affect this issue given that agreements have already been made, but that doesn't let them off the hook or remove their responsibility to their fans in ALL regions.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 1 post(s)
Jaron Pollard Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated 5	Posted - 2013.05.15 15:35:00 - [1] - Quote There is currently an ongoing parliamentary inquiry into why IT gear (hardware & software, including games) is so much more expensive here than it is elsewhere. On a side note... "We've received evidence that big IT companies and copyright holders charge Australians, on average, an extra 50 per cent just because we live here, a practice referred to by consumers as the 'Australia Tax',"' Mr Champion said. In other words, they charge that much simply because we'll pay that much. Unfortunately, DUST pricing is outside of CCP's control, that's Sony territory, but the fact that EVE pricing reflects that of the US even here in Australia demonstrates their respect for equal pricing worldwide, I believe, because EVE pricing does appear to be within their control.
Jaron Pollard Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated 12	Posted - 2013.05.15 23:45:00 - [2] - Quote konas gut wrote: Why do Customer support/GM's always hid behind this regional difference and tax fud? They should man up and admit that they are ripping AUS and NZ customers off. Poor show CCP you have lost my respect and a lot of others too. Even the sock puppet CPM and CSM don't have the balls to speak out. You guys don't read anything, do you? I posted the reason why earlier. Everyone here that's so quick to jump on CCP's case about it obviously hasn't spent a minute subbed on EVE or you'd know we pay the same price in Aus as the US do. The problem is with Sony, CCP are not 'complicit' regardless of how desperately you want to have a problem with them.
Jaron Pollard Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated 16	Posted - 2013.05.16 00:13:00 - [3] - Quote Otrera Goddess wrote: This was the ccp response to my petition asking about the price differences 2013.05.15 10:26:00 GM Avantgarde Hello, We can understand why you would like a clarification over the price of Merc Pack in different countries. Once we set the price on a game, SONY then would localise the price for each country based on local currency and taxes. Please accept our sincere apologies and we thank you for the understanding. If we could be your assistance on any DUST 514 issue in the future, please contact us again. Best Regards, GM Avantgarde CCP Customer Support \| EVE Online \| DUST 514 Its a total load of bullshit from CCP. I am no longer just someone playing a free game. I have bought over 30,000 aurum so far and am now what I consider a CCP customer. My money has gone to them, maybe not all of it because of Sony but they still get their share. They know they have it with in there power to fix this but clearly don't care!!!! I'm not sure if the DUST EULA mirrors the EVE one, but if it does, you're not allowed to post this. However, as much as you want to scream and shout and rage at CCP, if you stopped to listen for a moment, they provided you a legitimate explanation. If you feel otherwise, then clarify, no, verify with some evidence that "they know they have it within their power to fix this" because the last I checked, they're doing exactly what their dev agreement with Sony, who publishes for them at cost, allows them to do. How do you think trading goods and services takes place? Do you think that computer you're using to type all this on actually started out being worth what you bought it for? You are still just someone playing a free game, because payment for goods in it is entirely optional, a fact you knew when you bought them. It wasn't an investment of some kind, it was a purchase of an element of a game. The game itself is free to play, and can be played entirely for free.
Jaron Pollard Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated 19	Posted - 2013.05.16 01:00:00 - [4] - Quote Otrera Goddess wrote: There was no privacy statement within the email so as far as I am concerned they can take it off the forum if they want. I just wanted to show people what CCPs official response is to all of the questions as to why and how they justify the cost differences. And the reason behind the '"they know they have it within their power to fix this" statement is because its their ***** game. Sony didn't make the ** but yet they are the ones deciding on the charges. CCP can have their own servers or system designed to handle the transactions and distributions themselves. Clearly you do not get how important and valuable to a new player a booster is, it may not be considered an investment but over time the extra skill points allow faster progression and a better loadout for players. Yes, it is their game, but they are not the publisher. Halo is Bungie's game, but Microsoft were the publisher. Microsoft take a cut. In the case of EVE, CCP publishes and develops it themselves, so prices are the same all over. DUST, though, is published by Sony, and developed by CCP, Sony being the middleman that provide it to the players. Sony takes a cut. Clearly, as a player that got past the new player stage myself, I found boosters to be wholly unimportant to anyone but the impatient. It's entirely a matter of preference, and I can say that as a still-new toon that hasn't touched a booster yet. We've had this discussion on a whole other thread, and I don't know how you get "CCP controls the prices" from "SONY then would localise the price for each country based on local currency and taxes," but clearly something is lost in your basic comprehensions skills, let alone your DUST ones if you're that desperate for boosters. Also, there doesn't need to be a privacy statement in the email itself. If it is in the EULA, then you agree to it by playing the game. It is also in the forum rules, as posted above, which you should always read through before rageposting about things you don't know anything about.
Jaron Pollard Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated 21	Posted - 2013.05.16 08:46:00 - [5] - Quote Allah's Snackbar wrote: GM Grave wrote: While regional prices may vary, in many cases regional sales taxes and legal requirements are reflected in the user price. For example if you compare the pricing for EVE you will see that based on exchange rates alone the pricing can vary: http://www.eveonline.com/faq/paying-for-eve However we do work closely with all 4 SONY regions in order to try prevent price increases where possible, and ultimately SONY determine the prices for their stores. [ Lead GM Grave \| Project Lead \| CCP Customer Relations \| EVE Online \| DUST 514 ] This is either complete ignorance or a blatant misrepresentation and spin. Australia for the last few years has enjoyed above parity or record favorable exchange rates with most currencies. Australia has a uniform 10% GST but that is irrelevant here as there is no tax for online purchases under AU$1,000. CCP you are ripping off Australian customers, you are lying that your hands are completely tied and you will never see a cent from me. There are two kinds of people in the world: those who think in false dichotomies, and penguins. It has been explained in the thread why CCP is not to blame. Yet there are still players who would prefer to ignore rational discourse and just adopt the native "I'm going to be mad and rage at everyone, even if it's not their fault" attitude of the regular dime-a-dozen COD kiddie.
Jaron Pollard Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated 21	Posted - 2013.05.16 09:18:00 - [6] - Quote RedRebelCork wrote: You're assuming that CCP had no input into pricing plans for their product globally, which is of course absurd. Noone put a gun to CCP's head when it came time to agreeing pricing for Dust514 related products and services. This is rational discourse. Good. Then where's the part where you recognise the fact that CCP give Sony the same price for everything, and Sony ups it for their take, as a middle-man, depending on the region? Let me put it this way. CCP do set all their prices the same, and you'd know this if you play EVE, because everyone around the world pays the same price, based only on their currency exchange rate. This is like buying wholesale, straight from the manufacturer, because EVE is both developed and published entirely by CCP. DUST, however, while developed by CCP, is on Sony proprietary hardware, and is published by Sony, and distributed by Sony. That then is like buying retail, where you go to the store (Sony) to purchase the goods produced by the manufacturer (CCP). I'm assuming nothing. I know CCP have a price to set for stuff you choose to (but don't have to) buy, but it's standardised based on what the item is worth in-game in general isk/plex/aurum conversion rates, which is how they maintain consistency on the EVE/DUST economies, so that they only have one major input to consider instead of hundreds of different ones because they charge different regions different prices. The problem is with Sony. In fact, it's with the entire IT industry as a whole when buying hardware or software in Australia at all. That's why there's a parliamentary inquest into it involving Microsoft, Apple, Sony, IBM, and others, who have been called to answer as to why they charge more in Australia. This is not an unknown problem, and not something exclusive to DUST. But it exists in DUST because of Sony, not CCP.
Jaron Pollard Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated 22	Posted - 2013.05.16 13:36:00 - [7] - Quote RedRebelCork wrote: Jaron Pollard wrote: RedRebelCork wrote: You're assuming that CCP had no input into pricing plans for their product globally, which is of course absurd. Noone put a gun to CCP's head when it came time to agreeing pricing for Dust514 related products and services. This is rational discourse. Good. Then where's the part where you recognise the fact that CCP give Sony the same price for everything, and Sony ups it for their take, as a middle-man, depending on the region? Let me put it this way. CCP do set all their prices the same, and you'd know this if you play EVE, because everyone around the world pays the same price, based only on their currency exchange rate. This is like buying wholesale, straight from the manufacturer, because EVE is both developed and published entirely by CCP. DUST, however, while developed by CCP, is on Sony proprietary hardware, and is published by Sony, and distributed by Sony. That then is like buying retail, where you go to the store (Sony) to purchase the goods produced by the manufacturer (CCP). I'm assuming nothing. I know CCP have a price to set for stuff you choose to (but don't have to) buy, but it's standardised based on what the item is worth in-game in general isk/plex/aurum conversion rates, which is how they maintain consistency on the EVE/DUST economies, so that they only have one major input to consider instead of hundreds of different ones because they charge different regions different prices. The problem is with Sony. In fact, it's with the entire IT industry as a whole when buying hardware or software in Australia at all. That's why there's a parliamentary inquest into it involving Microsoft, Apple, Sony, IBM, and others, who have been called to answer as to why they charge more in Australia. This is not an unknown problem, and not something exclusive to DUST. But it exists in DUST because of Sony, not CCP. No. Once again you're jumping to illogical conclusions. Given that PSN is the sole distribution platform, and that Dust514 represents a significant financial and brand investment on the part of CCP you are assuming that their channel-partner agreement with SOE is as follows: "We CCP, recommend you the publisher (SOE) retail our product at a certain price, but you can really sell if for whatever price you feel like". Does that really sound like a realistic scenario? CCP putting the survival of Dust514 at the hands of SOE arbitrary pricing? It takes two to tango, whatever price SOE is selling for is at the permission of CCP. It may very well be too late for CCP to affect this issue given that agreements have already been made, but that doesn't let them off the hook or remove their responsibility to their fans in ALL regions. Do you even understand how content trading works? CCP sell the content to Sony, Sony sells it to the player. It's just like electricity. The company that produces the electricity at a plant sells it to a retailer, the retailer then sends you the bill. Stop accusing me of jumping to "illogical conclusions" if you're not even going to read what I am saying, what I am explaining, regarding games marketing. You claim for example "that Dust514 represents a significant financial and brand investment on the part of CCP" when it was Sony who invested over 20 million in the product, and it was EVE subs, EVE PLEX purchases and other online store profits that paid for the rest. So you're basing your "logic" on stuff you're making assumptions about yourself, or just outright don't even know what you're talking about. You think Sony have no right to make some of that money back with a retail agreement? You think CCP have the right to publish on Sony proprietary equipment without any say or benefit by Sony themselves? That's where you're mistaken. Sony is in control of all PSN store products for ALL games that are published on their console. Microsoft do the same thing with Xbox DLC. And Australians pay higher prices than everyone else for ALL of it. And you're still completely ignoring the fact that CCP publish EVE online themselves, distribute it themselves, and DON'T charge Australians any more than anyone else. You can confirm that fact by asking an American and an Australian how much they pay for subs and PLEX and they will give you almost the exact same figure, representing similar dollar values on the market. So before you go jumping down CCP's throat, you first need to actually demonstrate some precedent of the behaviour of overpricing, which they simply don't do, and also demonstrate conclusively how Sony is completely uninvolved in any way. When you've done then, then you can accuse me of failing logic. But until you understand the meaning of the word, all you're capable of it seems is the ironic projection of you're own lack of understanding of the matter. Bottom line is, CCP don't control the price the customer pays for it on the Sony store, only the price that they sell that content to Sony for in order for Sony to distribute it on THEIR proprietary hardware. No one is saying CCP don't have input on their prices. But we're talking about the price the consumer is paying, which is the OUTPUT by Sony. Are we getting a clue yet?
Jaron Pollard Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated 22	Posted - 2013.05.16 13:44:00 - [8] - Quote I'll simplify, with an example. CCP might charge say $2 worth of Aurum for an item. Then Sony puts their additional charges on that. For the US, it might be 10% more, making it only $2.20. For Australia, they might charge 50% more, making it $3 total. Why? Ask Sony, they're the ones jacking the prices, not CCP. If CCP were to lower the price to $1, it would then be $1.10 in the US, and $1.50 in Australia, and we'll still be paying more.
Jaron Pollard Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated 22	Posted - 2013.05.16 14:03:00 - [9] - Quote Operative 1171 Aajli wrote: Protip: Move away from a socialist country. Less taxes and more fun! Protip: Australia isn't socialist, and this isn't about politics, it's about capitalism and how it hurts people. This is how it hurts people, because the only real reason these companies have for charging Australians more is because we've demonstrated a willingness to pay more by not understanding how much cheaper it is overseas. There are no taxes or exchange rates that justify the extreme markups that we are subjected to across the IT product range, including hardware and software, hence why there is currently a parliamentary inquiry into their pricing for Australians. Besides, I'd rather live in a socialist country than a puritan one. But that's off topic too. Sorry, I wouldn't go off topic like that so much if others were able to stick to the point.
Jaron Pollard Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated 23	Posted - 2013.05.16 14:54:00 - [10] - Quote RedRebelCork wrote: To rebut your points in no particular order: 1. I know CCP don't gouge on EVE Online. I applaud them for that. However, a history of good behaviour does not preclude a company from conducting bad behaviour. Precedence makes no difference to the discussion, it's like a character witness at a trial, incidental but doesn't make or break the case. Anyway, I'm not saying they're gouging, I'm saying they're allowing gouging to take place in this instance. In other words, just ignore this point because I should take your word for precedence not being a factor to consider, while just forgetting how I just explained that it's not up to CCP to deny Sony their method for pricing. Great rebuttal there. Is argument from ignorance a rebuttal? Quote: 2. "Do you even understand how content trading works?" It works whatever way the two parties engaging in production and distribution of that content trading agree on. Do you KNOW for a fact that CCP sell for X and Sony sell for X+Y? I mean do you know for certain. You don't I'd wager, nor do I. I'm just stating the obvious in voicing a doubt that CCP do not have any contractual built-in price floors or ceilings for content. Yes, I do know for a fact, it's not just what they stated, but it's what happens. It was the same for Bungie and DLC for Halo, Turn 10 and DLC for Forza, and it's the same for anyone else that wants to publish their product on PROPRIETARY HARDWARE, another point that you've conveniently ignored. Again, great rebuttal. Is shifting the goalposts a rebuttal? Quote: 3. "CCP sell the content to Sony, Sony sells it to the player. It's just like electricity. The company that produces the electricity at a plant sells it to a retailer, the retailer then sends you the bill" I think that's an inaccurate depiction of the scenario in this case. The electricity generation companies produce a set supply of capacity which the retailers purchase in bulk to resell. CCP don't sell to Sony, and Sony don't buy anything from CCP. It's a distribution channel. Sony sell a virtual product with infinite supply. Sony don't say to CCP "We need 15,000 merc packs, here's $30,000". They sell the merc packs and give CCP whatever is due to them. Whether SOE derive their profits from selling above a margin dictated by CCP or whether they simply recoup a % of transactions is another unknown that we can make unfounded assumptions on if we want. In what case? You think this is a special case? DLC is developed by the devs, and to distribute it on PROPRIETARY HARDWARE they have to go through the PROPRIETARY RETAILER. I have tried to drop this clue a number of times, but I don't know.... is argument from cluelessness a rebuttal? There has to be a model constructed around how CCP actually get their money for the DLC. It is done by "selling" it to Sony, but while Sony don't need to buy digital content in bulk because it's entirely copyable, they pay CCP an assigner royalty that is analogous to CCP's sale price when content is purchased by consumers. That is the model, and it is entirely analogous to how electricity is provided and sold, with the exception of pre-paying for service in bulk. The way the pricing is determined by the retailer, however, is exactly the same. Quote: My bottom line: You're forgetting it takes two to tango once again. Yes SOE own the PS Store. But the partnership between CCP and SOE is far from the norm. Whatever agreements are in place are likely not to be the standard cookie cutter agreements that every other Tom, ** or Harry sign going into PSN. That much is clear based on the unprecedented steps SOE have made to accomodate Dust514 on PSN. We don't know the details of the agreements made so most of what I'm guessing (and you flat out claiming to be the case) is just conjecture. I'm not forgetting anything, but you're ignoring a lot. You're trying to claim that CCP has the final be-all and end-all say of content, and anyone that argues otherwise must be claiming that they have no say whatsoever. This is a false dichotomy, and I've tried to explain why, but you clearly have your heart set on blaming CCP entirely. Quote: Another curve ball: Imagine in a years time Dust514 becomes the #1 console FPS. BF and COD are languishing in the gutter and things look great. Imagine SOE decide they want to double all transaction costs and make a quick buck (an EA-esque move). Given that CCP are relying on the income of microtransactions to pay for this game and make it profitable do you think it likely that CCP would allow SOE sole decision making power like that? You do I think, I don't think CCP would put themselves in such a vulnerable position without certain contractual guarantees. I don't deal in speculation, and I don't pretend that CCP can do no evil. I was there for Incarna, I was there for the BoB scandals and I was there for a great many other fuckups, so you kinda get to know when CCP is ***** up and when it's beyond their control by noticing patterns. This is not a CCP problem, and making it one will only shift the focus away from where the focus should be: Sony. This is detrimental to making prices cheaper in Australia in general, because it will go no where. TBC

Jaron Pollard Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated 23	Posted - 2013.05.16 14:55:00 - [11] - Quote Quote: Lastly, I can't find any reference to Sony spending $20,000,000 on the development of Dust514. If they have spent that much I'm surprised they're not in the forums flaming with the rest of us about why there are still so many bugs to iron out. I'll concede this was actually my mistake. The $20 million actually came from somewhere else. It still doesn't change the fact that even if you yourself want to publish something on proprietary hardware like the PS3, Sony still gets to determine how much they distribute it for based on the price you sell them your content for. And it is entirely up to them. Likewise, it is entirely up to you if you want to pull that product from their service entirely in protest, but I'm pretty sure that would be a breach of contract.
Jaron Pollard Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated 46	Posted - 2013.05.17 08:50:00 - [12] - Quote Crucias Soulreaver wrote: CCP did not tell Sony to charge us extortionate markups - True AUS/NZ gamers are a minority on CCP's servers - True AUS/NZ pay more for all Sony digital product - True There is no digital sales tax in Aus or NZ for purchases under $1000 - True DUST prices exceed currency conversion & tax prices by ~35% minimum , ~50% maximum - True All of the above facts point to it being Sony's greed at fault. However, the second bullet point is EXACTLY why CCP should care; Sony is going to ignore all our petitions and complaints BECAUSE we are a minority and it will take the legal action of the two countries governments to make headway without CCP (which, because of our current government, means NZ is buggered twice over). CCP are entitled to lodge a formal complaint with Sony over the blatant abuse of their product. The fact that other publishers do not bother has no effect on the moral obligations of this situation. People in this thread need to stop blaming CCP, and focus on demanding the same consumer equality CCP shows to it's EVE customers. I can't say I would blame CCP for doing nothing, because it would be a very lengthy process to go through, they have no obligation to go through it, and I would rather they focus on developing the game. I've posted enough of these threads about pricing in Australia myself to know, however, that the best we can do, and the best CCP can do also, is wait to see how the parliamentary inquiry goes into IT pricing. It's politics, so it'll take some time, but patience is a key factor here because if the inquiry fails to produce results, then we are going to need our energy. If we expend it all now, and direct it at the wrong source, eventually we are just going to get tired of not getting any results ourselves, and just give up, in which case, they all start charging even more because they know they have us beat. And I'm not just talking about Sony - IBM, Apple (puke), Microsoft, HP, Intel, etc, all do the same thing because they know we'll pay.