He had a 9K or maybe a standard with damage mods. I had a 5K shield gunlogi. It was...perfect. he could deny my access to an area, but never solo me unless I let him. I could still slaughter his teammates if he let me, but squared off against eachother, I could usually kill him, but half the time he'd get a couple of shots off and push me to another front. It was perfect. Why? BC it was std gear vs std modules. Against proto or even advanced gear I would have been 2-shotted, but this was balanced. I kept my distance to avoid AV nades, but it wasn't the 400 m distance expected. Maybe 50-200m max.

This ultimately means that either we need prototype vehicles or they need to lose prototype AV. It isn't a call for a buff or a nerf, but to fight fire with an equivalent amount of water; usually its like a campfire being put out by 7 fire trucks.

How did you know what his AV build was?

You made a lot of money ........he made none.... I'm somehow failing to see how "perfect" it is ....

You made a lot of money ........he made none.... I'm somehow failing to see how "perfect" it is ....

Both role did their intended jobs, and nether one overpowered the other. In a fight like that skill and tactics would have been the deciding factor.

His fits cost a fraction of what mine cost. If I die once, I lose 1 mil. How is THAT balanced?

His fits cost a fraction of what mine cost. If I die once, I lose 1 mil. How is THAT balanced?

You said you could usually kill him so he didn't make anything back by denying you a position but lose out on ISK....

On the other hand you could kill him and his team which brings you in some money....

How is THAT balanced?

His fits cost a fraction of what mine cost. If I die once, I lose 1 mil. How is THAT balanced?

Fraction is not "cheap" His survivability is much lower than you because he doesn't just have to worry about you. His effectiveness verses infantry is lessened because he skilled to fight you . Therefore he tends to die ......alot . Even with price lowering in Uprising a AV Heavy can find himself deep in the red simply by doing his job . Yet he only gets paid IF he gets the killshot . Even if he does the most damage. No killshot No dough .

Sometimes you sacrifice your income and stats in a match to be a better use to your team. Preventing a tank from steamrolling your team, even if you never kill the tank, is effectively removing the tank from the field of battle, making it so your infantry can focus on the enemy infantry. That is a vital, yet thankless role that AV plays. Watching an AV guy go 2-5 yet watching the enemy tank only get at most 10 kills when you know they could have gotten 30-40 without your AV guy is a beautiful thing.

Sometimes you sacrifice your income and stats in a match to be a better use to your team. Preventing a tank from steamrolling your team, even if you never kill the tank, is effectively removing the tank from the field of battle, making it so your infantry can focus on the enemy infantry. That is a vital, yet thankless role that AV plays. Watching an AV guy go 2-5 yet watching the enemy tank only get at most 10 kills when you know they could have gotten 30-40 without your AV guy is a beautiful thing.

Sometimes you sacrifice your income and stats in a match to be a better use to your team. Preventing a tank from steamrolling your team, even if you never kill the tank, is effectively removing the tank from the field of battle, making it so your infantry can focus on the enemy infantry. That is a vital, yet thankless role that AV plays. Watching an AV guy go 2-5 yet watching the enemy tank only get at most 10 kills when you know they could have gotten 30-40 without your AV guy is a beautiful thing.

You made a lot of money ........he made none.... I'm somehow failing to see how "perfect" it is ....

It's beautiful right up until you hit the poor house . It's a basic fact of New Eden . If you are losing the ISK war , then you are losing the war period !

Sorry but no merc should be running a charity ..... that goes against the entire idea of being a merc !

The forge gunner did his job, he tried to kill the tank and when he couldnt kill it, he denied a large number of kills/land to move on to it. The forge gunner helped his team, whereas our tanker friend here was rendered less effective than he otherwise would if been and didn't help his team as much as he could off.0

Sometimes you sacrifice your income and stats in a match to be a better use to your team. Preventing a tank from steamrolling your team, even if you never kill the tank, is effectively removing the tank from the field of battle, making it so your infantry can focus on the enemy infantry. That is a vital, yet thankless role that AV plays. Watching an AV guy go 2-5 yet watching the enemy tank only get at most 10 kills when you know they could have gotten 30-40 without your AV guy is a beautiful thing.

I should be a able to kill a heavy faster then he kills me. In reality he has the element of surprise at all times Dropships you can easily tell when they are on the map heavies are not so easy. Forges are a little op but close to being in a good place.

Small vehicle turrets have been nerfed to hell. And need some buffing.

Please tell me that is a bad joke. I've been mowed down by Large Blasters many times while waiting for the charge timer on my assault forge. Tankers have no problem out DPSing me. Unless they are using Large Missiles, I still do not know if those have been un-nerfed yet. There was allot of fallout from the days when Missile Turrets were WIN. CCP should have just buffed Large Blasters rather than simultaneously nerfing all missiles last build.

I'm also thinking all turret skills are "must have skill 5s." For smalls if both the pilot and gunner don't both have enough stacking damage and a proto turret then their isn't any point even trying to get any kills.

Neither do logis. There's more to it than the isk payout.

I am not talking about large turrets. I am talking about small for dropships.



And trust me my gunner and me both have all small missile turrets maxed for max damage. still they underperform by a long shot . It should not take splash from 8+ missiles to kill a heavy. Direct hits should 1 shot most infantry besides the tankiest of the tankiest. 2-3 shot heavies.

The problem does not come from dropships not able to tank forge round really I think they are at a okay place there. Might need a HP buff because of the change in overall HP to a resist bonus.

We can not kill forgers effectively att all. Blasters to kill a forger you have to get within 30-40m and hold still for the 3 seconds it takes to melt a heavy problem is you can not hold still and every movement even on the come in throws the blasters aim off. so you are ending op taking 6 seconds plus. all that time plus the time on you moving in to get in range on a heavy your a easy target. Even if you get the drop on the heavy he just turns and his first shot makes it impossible hence fourth to hit him any more.

What about missile turrets. 8+ splash hits to kill a heavy. Again trying to keep a projectile close to the heavy is almost impossible all the time because any movement throws it off by a long shot. Me and my gunner with damage mods dropped on a heavy got 3 shots into him before he turned on us and shot and after that we where forced to run barely saving the dropship. 3+ direct hits it takes. Just wrong in all accounts that a vehicle mounted turret can have the drop hit every time and still lose to the heavy. Both of us on even ground he was proto we where proto. Splash should be taking 2-4 shots on a proto heavy depding on if you use damage mods. 1-3 direct hit. again depending on damage mods. Most infantry should die from 1-2 direc hits and 2-3 splash. Not 5+ splash hits and 2+ direct.

The problem comes that turrets are under powered.

I should be a able to kill a heavy faster then he kills me. In reality he has the element of surprise at all times Dropships you can easily tell when they are on the map heavies are not so easy. Forges are a little op but close to being in a good place.

Small vehicle turrets have been nerfed to hell. And need some buffing.

You have my respect for staying in Dropships. Gave up on them two or so game builds ago.

In the last build a pilot with 5s in Small Missile Turrets and Turrets could with a decent gunner three shot large turret installations. This one time a guy kept count how long it took to blow up a supply depot and it was about 19 shots with a proto launcher.

The missile splash is a legacy nerf. Missiles were "too good" so they were nerfed while blasters were buffed from being a comedic joke. Small missiles on Dropships were pretty terrifying at one time but I don't think they deserve their current state. Especially now that Dropships can't super tank with enough SP and isk. CCP really should revert them to the pre-blaster buff and see what happens. I know there would be missile sniping grumbling again but that can be solved by range limits.

and the match was still lost because it turns out you can't fire objective hacks from a tank barrel.

You said you could usually kill him so he didn't make anything back by denying you a position but lose out on ISK....

On the other hand you could kill him and his team which brings you in some money....

How is THAT balanced?

Part of the reason that you see AVers so keen on soloing vehicles is because THAT is the only way for AV players to get rewarded. No killshot, no rewards.

If there was some better WP reward for AV other than killshots, that would fix a lot of the metagame balance issue.

For instance, if we got 50 WP for every 2000 HP of damage we inflicted to vehicles, that would help. Heck, I'd be fine if it was across the board for everyone, now that the game is tracking our total damage output. That 50WP per 2000 HP would also mean that the effective rewards for killing Advanced vehicles would be more commensurate with the challenge.

This is a good point. Actual combat balance of AV versus tanks seems fine. Isk payout is a very obvious issue howeve, in that there is a lot of risk for no reward with AVers. A specialized AV user dumps a lot of skill points into those abilities, and spends money on those items, to get very very little isk or warpoints in return. Which obviously discourages specific av users and hurts those who do chose to play that way. The same can be said of dropships, in that they require much sp and isk, but return very little to no isk or wps back to the user.
CCP should mainly figure out ways to award warpoints and isk to these team players.

I cant agree more for bothe AV and DS,

I really like the Payout for Damage Dealt idea, Also I think ISK should be rewarded for how much ISK you cost other players.


One good example ( I think ) of how bad the ISK pay out is,


In 1 game I destroyed 3 tanks and killed 14 people totall, I made less then 200k ISK,

I died 3 times that game and it cost me over 300K.

If they were to release an actual good weapon that fits in the side arm slot it would help. As is stands, if you're fitted for AV and encounter any infantry you're virtually defenseless. Give the poor heavy's a gun that they can actually stand a fighting chance in, like the compact AR that comes with the black eagle suit.

charity 1 day highly paid merc for doing it another day. u lose money one day and get hired by a corp tht will pay u the next.

Why are people so obliviously bad @ this Game??? AV Tiers are not at all balanced to Vehicles. The HAV & LAV Buffs are just a Band-Aid tbh as the PG still suffers. If you get paid too little for AV "Effort" then you are bad @ DUST....... I "Bumblebee" (Now "Wasp") w/ a Duvo-TAC & ADV AV Nades & get more Kills than I would have in a Tank, even w/o a single Enemy Tank fielded, & risk significantly less ISK. If that's not enough.....swap to MLT Forge on Free Suit + Free Mods, Toxin & MLT Locus Nades (or STD Flux if I wanna be "That Guy") & get EZ $$$ & Tank Tears.

If you can't manage at least 1 Infantry Kill as a FGer.....you are obsolete. Heavy Suits & Weapons dropped in price while Tanks got more expensive. ADV AV is plenty to Solo a Tank (God forbid you need to "Specialize") so you can quite easily upgrade Nades or Sidearm or w/e (HMG or AR + Supply Depot). But no.....not enough for ya to possibly 1-3 Shot anything on the Map w/ a little bit of "Skill". Swarms are Fire & Forget, Sidearm &/or Nade Advice applies here as well. Hell........Speed Tank & AV, Depot, WIN DUST. But of course we all need to MLT Solo ALL Vehicles before "Happiness" ensues.

TL:DR: Nerf FG Range, lower Tank & Turret prices, & bring out Tanks above STD.....seriously.

PS: Active Shield Hardeners are still trash & need 30 Pulse/10 Cooldown. KB still faster & unbalanced for Tanking. L2Code KthxBAI :P

I was essentially going to respond that it should be that av players should have to specialize in proto forges and swarms to take down proto tanks, and that it should be that an av player shouldn't really have a lot of time to focus on killing the other infantry with his forge gun. When this occurs there should be specific warpoints for av activities as the av player won't be getting wp or isk from infantry kills.

So I agree with you, but I still hold that specific av actions should have wp associated with them (along with dropship actions).

Thank you. The purpose of AV is to deny tanks access to an area, not kill them. Only tanks and DS's should be as to solo tanks.