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cy6
Raging Pack of Homos
55
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Posted - 2013.06.17 18:04:00 -
[91] - Quote
Ive been using scrambler for a while and Id have to say, the reduced charge time really does help in a pinch. It sets up well for ambush shots and following it up with a few more in rapid succession. This got me to thinking, what if we made the operations skills applicable only to the "alpha" versions of assault-type rifles. Thus,
Less kick applies only to the automatic variants of assault rifles less charge shot time applies only to the semi-auto variant of scramblers etc for combat rifle etc for rail rifle
This would accomplish a few things.
1) it implies that the alpha variants should be the best performing rifle in relationship to their variants 2) it would also imply that the extra-racial carbon copies of the alpha rifle should be slightly inferior since they do not receive the ops bonus that the alpha rifles do have (ie. ass-scr does have less kick and tac-ar does not get a charge)
I hope combat rifle ops is 10% ammo in clip per level (starting off with 3 bullets and ending at 5) and the rail rifle ops is 1% per level to range
I also hope combat rifle does 80/120 and rail rifle does 90/110 to shield//armor |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
825
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Posted - 2013.06.17 18:12:00 -
[92] - Quote
cy6 wrote:Ive been using scrambler for a while and Id have to say, the reduced charge time really does help in a pinch. It sets up well for ambush shots and following it up with a few more in rapid succession. This got me to thinking, what if we made the operations skills applicable only to the "alpha" versions of assault-type rifles. Thus,
Less kick applies only to the automatic variants of assault rifles less charge shot time applies only to the semi-auto variant of scramblers etc for combat rifle etc for rail rifle
This would accomplish a few things.
1) it implies that the alpha variants should be the best performing rifle in relationship to their variants 2) it would also imply that the extra-racial carbon copies of the alpha rifle should be slightly inferior since they do not receive the ops bonus that the alpha rifles do have (ie. ass-scr does have less kick and tac-ar does not get a charge)
I hope combat rifle ops is 10% ammo in clip per level (starting off with 3 bullets and ending at 5) and the rail rifle ops is 1% per level to range
I also hope combat rifle does 80/120 and rail rifle does 90/110 to shield//armor
In this context, the "benefit" of the alpha semi-auto scrambler is meaningless to other versions without a charge (and the charge itself comes with a large heat penalty anyway). You're effectively suggesting removing the passive from other weapon variants that have them across the board.
I'd argue that merely having a benefit that impacts all variants is probably a more positive situation than nerfing variants of other weapon types. |
matsumoto yuichi san
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
10
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Posted - 2013.06.17 18:26:00 -
[93] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:Rynx Sinfar wrote:I guess there are lots of options. Reload time, fire rate, heat build up/cooldown. Tricky to balance though. I haven't used the assault is there any bulletspread? It's... considerably more scattershot than an AR. That may be related to the lack of dispersion decreasing skills on the SR, but it wider than even an unskilled AR to me. I'd heard the heat build-up is per-second instead of per shot. Changing that would probably count as a "nerf" to the S-AR as-is, but it would make a heat build-up passive more sensible. It seems preferable to me to have a separate dispersion (sharpshooter) skill like the AR, since they seemed to establish that already for some of the other fast-firing automatic weapons. On the subject of "nerfs", if the SR is intended to be a TAR-like weapon, but the "alpha" version that other races copy, then it might make sense to make other changes to the semi-auto version as well. Heat per shot (as opposed to per second) can control the fire rate already to some degree. The clip size on a standard scrambler is already very generous for a "TAR" equivalent sort of weapon. I rarely find myself reloading except by gameplay reflex. They're already adjusting the range, so you probably don't need to look at that. Altogether, I'd recommend changing heat build-up to per shot instead of per second. I'd accordingly change the passive to heat build-up reduction, which would appropriate reward people taking it to proto with respect to operation. I'd either reduce the clip-size on a standard, or possibly make charge shots expend more than one ammo. Building the passive and the gun around the "heat" mechanic would also work for the unreleased variants: breach and burst. Managing heat with burst and breach fire, and becoming "better" at it with higher Scrambler skill would gel well. They have said they intend to release variants of each race for the other races. The "charge" passive wouldn't really work for a burst rifle either, and I'm not sure about using it for Breach... (maybe I guess).
i notice on the semi auto and even the full auto the SCR has much more dispersion and kick even than an AR with 0 skills in AR
i tried recently in my militia AR and don't notice any kick / dispersion until i fore >30 rounds, and they are already dead cause it's like a laser to their head
not saying SCR needs less but the AR could use more
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Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
826
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Posted - 2013.06.17 19:32:00 -
[94] - Quote
Right. The Scrambler has very little recoil, but very high dispersion (and no sharpshooter). The AR seems to have no recoil when ADS, and that seems... sketchy? It makes you wonder why there's a burst variant when full auto is that steady.
That aside, I'm more concerned with the general imbalance of the Scrambler passive just... doing nothing for a variant than more global balance issues. |
matsumoto yuichi san
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
10
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Posted - 2013.06.17 20:14:00 -
[95] - Quote
certainty, i simply was pointing that out.
the passive even for the normal SR isn't that great i charge on occasion and when i do i don't notice -25% from 2 really 1.5 vs 2 is the same unless actively getting shot and it's a better deal to not charge then anyway
i brought up the larger global thing because if the SCR gets a better active i was pointing out what type of weapon i needs to compete against, and you have to remember that as you decide what type of bonus it needs
the AR has 2 things that even are negligible at the start kick / disp but gets a skill to make both better, for all the variants
the SCR has kick / heat / disp as it's main things that are drawbacks, none is negligible. and gets no skill to effect them besides an 8x assault skill for the heat, and that's a suit so we should ignore it.
it just feels weird |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
828
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Posted - 2013.06.17 21:08:00 -
[96] - Quote
I certainly wouldn't argue that the charge reduction is "useful". There's three reasons why in my opinion:
1. As you suggest, the time difference is already negligible so it doesn't make much of a difference.
2. Heat build is a time and charge sensitive reaction on the rifle, and a shorter charge letting you fire charged shots "faster" is just going to make you overheat quicker. This makes the whole idea a little stupid.
3. Charge shots are ill-suited to speed to begin with with. A charged shot is an aimed hit likely to happen outside of cqc when you have little bit of luxury to setup a shot. The chaos of more close-quarters events means charge shots are unwieldy in those circumstances, and the negligible speed boost won't change that.
That said, I think focusing on the fact that the current skill doesn't cover all the weapons (and is broken in that sense) is a less debatable concept. People can grasp, "passive doesn't impact all variants... no other weapon has that problem" easier than "passive isn't very good" because opinions enter into the latter, and many weapons have passives that are questionably useful. |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
843
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Posted - 2013.06.18 08:28:00 -
[97] - Quote
I almost feel bad bumping this after spam-ocalypse earlier. |
Kelrie Nae'bre
not in a corporation
34
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Posted - 2013.06.18 17:16:00 -
[98] - Quote
Justice for the empress's weapons takes no breaks. |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
871
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Posted - 2013.06.19 04:48:00 -
[99] - Quote
Kelrie Nae'bre wrote:Justice for the empress's weapons takes no breaks.
True. If the heat is per-second instead of per-shot, that should be fixed too though. |
Avallo Kantor
DUST University Ivy League
65
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Posted - 2013.06.19 04:57:00 -
[100] - Quote
I also use primarily the standard variant of the SR (Seeing as I only got to SR skill lvl 4 tonight) but I can say when I use a charge shot it is normally when: 1) I have time to take aim. 2) I ducked under cover or behind boxes and want to make my first shot count (or miss... as usual) 3) I'm waiting around a corner for a hostile to pop out.
In situations 1 and 3 I have absolutely no need for a charge speed reduction as I have more than enough waiting time, and even in case 2 I hit full charge far before I need to pop back out of cover, or the enemy charges around that box. In all cases, where I am using the variant that it actually grants a bonus to, I find that the bonus doesn't actually help me at all.
I've carefully looked over the other weapon skills, and I tend to notice the level 1 skill generally is a bit more helpful to all variants, and even standard use of the weapon. The charge function is already a more specialized and situational ability on the SR (one that I love) but unlike other weapons it is not universally applicable to all uses of even the standard variant, while other weapons generally have a skill that will give benefit to some degree each time you shoot that gun. The SR seems to be the only weapon who's general bonus does not give a bonus that is advantageous to -every- time you pull the trigger. |
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Talos Alomar
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
960
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Posted - 2013.06.19 06:37:00 -
[101] - Quote
At first I really disliked the bonus for the SCR, but then after using the rifle more I've noticed just how often it's let me drop somebody from being able to let off that charge shot just fast enough to kill them before they kill me.
I use the charge shot pretty heavily, but another poster did point out that every other weapon skill always has a positive effect for all variants and you also notice the bonus every time you pull the trigger (or there are the clip size increasing skills) giving us a pretty definite pattern.
The scrambler breaks that pattern though. It's passive bonus is only useful when doing charge shots on the basic version of the SCR.
The Assault SCR does not get any help from the passives, nor does the basic version receive any help from the bonus either.
Here is my take on a good change of the skills
1. bring the charge time down to 1.5.
2. change the passive bonus to +65 (maybe lower, no higher) heat capacity. this lets you fire more shots before overheating for all weapon variants and fire modes. I suggest raising the amount of heat it takes to overload the weapon as opposed to slowing the rate of heat build up as that is the Amarr suit bonus and I'd rather have a new skill that does something slightly different.
upping the amount of heat the weapon is able to take would guarantee non-bonused suits would be able to get that third charge shot, but also letting bonused suits (Amarr assault) maybe get a fourth vharge shot or be able to keep firing after the third charge shot. |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
929
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Posted - 2013.06.19 06:54:00 -
[102] - Quote
Talos Alomar wrote:At first I really disliked the bonus for the SCR, but then after using the rifle more I've noticed just how often it's let me drop somebody from being able to let off that charge shot just fast enough to kill them before they kill me.
I use the charge shot pretty heavily, but another poster did point out that every other weapon skill always has a positive effect for all variants and you also notice the bonus every time you pull the trigger (or there are the clip size increasing skills) giving us a pretty definite pattern.
The scrambler breaks that pattern though. It's passive bonus is only useful when doing charge shots on the basic version of the SCR.
The Assault SCR does not get any help from the passives, nor does the basic version receive any help from the bonus either.
Here is my take on a good change of the skills
1. bring the charge time down to 1.5.
2. change the passive bonus to +65 (maybe lower, no higher) heat capacity. this lets you fire more shots before overheating for all weapon variants and fire modes. I suggest raising the amount of heat it takes to overload the weapon as opposed to slowing the rate of heat build up as that is the Amarr suit bonus and I'd rather have a new skill that does something slightly different.
upping the amount of heat the weapon is able to take would guarantee non-bonused suits would be able to get that third charge shot, but also letting bonused suits (Amarr assault) maybe get a fourth vharge shot or be able to keep firing after the third charge shot.
Interesting.
Heat capacity isn't directly listed of course, but some sort of value exists somewhere for it I assume. It would only bork their display if the heat build is displaying fixed units I guess. Unless the heat capacity variable is an 8 bit integer (255 cap), which might be how it works right now if heat build is around 60 per sec. Then they'd have to change their variable structure to account for an increase in capacity (unlikely I'd think).
So, 65+ is 13 "heat' capacity per level - however you want to consider those heat units? Is that necessarily a shot though? I know the heat build on a standard is listed at 60, but aside from the supposed "per sec" metering of the semi-auto fire, it isn't clear to me exactly how many units a charge shot is. If you meant that 65 heat "units" per level, I guess that would roughly match the current rate on the semi-auto, but if it actually per second (instead of per shot), that would be way too high.
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D legendary hero
One-Armed Bandits
208
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Posted - 2013.06.19 07:08:00 -
[103] - Quote
J-Lewis wrote:5% per level to overheat would be nice. A 0.5 second reduction to a 2 second charge time isn't really that useful even for the charge variant.
That's about all though.
the same thing they have for the HMG overheat reduction would help it. it already does massive damage. |
Talos Alomar
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
960
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Posted - 2013.06.19 07:51:00 -
[104] - Quote
DISCLAIMER - these are numbers I eyballed from a while back, I'll double check them tomorrow but for know I'll go with what I remember
so the SCR claims to have 60 heat build up (HB for brevity's sake) a shot at base. I assumed that this meant it was per shot, and rolled with it.
The Amarr Assault skill is -25% to heat build up for laser weaponry so factoring that in it brings it down to 45 HB a shot.
you can see in the heat meter by the ammo counter that there are 5 groups of 3 boxes. Each time I fire the SCR the heat went just about up to one box, so I'm assuming that each box represents 50 HB.
This brings the heat capacity of the SCR to 750 total.
the charge shot fills around 8 boxes, with amarr bonus
Since we're already going out on a few limbs we might as well just assume that the charge shot has x8 the heat of a normal shot, making the un-bonused scrambler charge shot end up at 520. and the bonused scrambler end up at 360
With the cool down rate of the weapons the un-bonused scrambler gets 2 charge shots and the bonused scrambler gets 2 plus a couple shots at the end.
adding about 325 to the capacity of the SCR at level 5 would let un bonused users get a third charge shot with maybe a shot or two to spare while letting the people who have specced into amarr assault get a possible fourth charge shot.
Another disclaimer - after running the numbers again it turns out that the SCR would be able to fire like the pre nerf tac rifle in CQC, with less damage and a much bigger penalty for spamming your shots too fast. Not sure if it's a deal breaker for this change or not, but I'd love to hear out some opinions. |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
929
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Posted - 2013.06.19 08:42:00 -
[105] - Quote
The per shot vs. per sec thing came up because someone noted that you could get a higher number of shots off with a SR using a mouse macro to max your shots per second than you can just hammering the button. The conclusion being if both overheat at the same time with different numbers of shots, the heat is probably set to a per second basis (possibly lifted directly from the laser rifle) rather per shot.
If it's per shot, then "fixing" it would have larger repercussions for the assault scrambler certainly (it would overheat much quicker), and I think the heat build on the scrambler might go up as well. Though the exact heat build up mechanics and what the cap is would require some degree of dev description for hard numbers I guess; I always feel a little sketchy trying to reverse engineer systems that are possibly bugged on their end anyway. |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
932
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Posted - 2013.06.19 11:29:00 -
[106] - Quote
I should add that I'd like it if the scrambler had a separate dispersion skill (sharpshooter) as well, but I wouldn't want it as the main passive. |
Kelrie Nae'bre
not in a corporation
39
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Posted - 2013.06.19 16:26:00 -
[107] - Quote
If they're both means of creating heat-build reductions, does it really matter if it's done by percentage reducing the build-up factor vs. adding to the heat build capacity? I mean, it's like you're solving a math problem two different ways. If you're fine with the idea of heat build-up reduction, why does the mechanic you use to get there (if it's balanced) really matter? |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
936
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Posted - 2013.06.20 04:09:00 -
[108] - Quote
That's a good question. I don't have a macro-mouse myself anyhow, so I was sort of taking the per-sec business on faith anyway. I would "think" that there's no practical difference, aside from how you choose to approach having the skill mitigate heat. It's like if you had a weapon use X amount of ammo per shot with a Y-sized clip. Both reducing X and increasing Y have the same practical effect. |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
937
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Posted - 2013.06.20 11:05:00 -
[109] - Quote
Talos Alomar wrote:DISCLAIMER
Well, it made this weeks feedback list:
So, the scrambler was designed to have a passive only impacting the semi-auto, and marginally at that.
a¦á_a¦á
So, I guess that's that. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
4458
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Posted - 2013.06.20 11:12:00 -
[110] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:Talos Alomar wrote:DISCLAIMER Well, it made this weeks feedback list: So, the scrambler was designed to have a passive only impacting the semi-auto, and marginally at that. a¦á_a¦á So, I guess that's that. It pissed me off when I first read it, I messaged Wang and Frame on twitter in response. Seems odd that one racial rifle (Gallente AR) has an operation skill that is useful for it and all its variants, yet the other racial rifle (Amarr SCR) has an operation skill that doesn't do anything for variants; it basically punishes using variants on the SCR. |
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Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
939
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Posted - 2013.06.21 04:52:00 -
[111] - Quote
Well, Gallente also get Sharpshooter and a rifle with higher range. They must really hate the Amarr. |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
941
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Posted - 2013.06.21 11:35:00 -
[112] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Zeylon Rho wrote:Talos Alomar wrote:DISCLAIMER Well, it made this weeks feedback list: So, the scrambler was designed to have a passive only impacting the semi-auto, and marginally at that. a¦á_a¦á So, I guess that's that. It pissed me off when I first read it, I messaged Wang and Frame on twitter in response. Seems odd that one racial rifle (Gallente AR) has an operation skill that is useful for it and all its variants, yet the other racial rifle (Amarr SCR) has an operation skill that doesn't do anything for variants; it basically punishes using variants on the SCR.
I dont suppose you got a reply? |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
4479
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Posted - 2013.06.22 02:10:00 -
[113] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Zeylon Rho wrote:Talos Alomar wrote:DISCLAIMER Well, it made this weeks feedback list: So, the scrambler was designed to have a passive only impacting the semi-auto, and marginally at that. a¦á_a¦á So, I guess that's that. It pissed me off when I first read it, I messaged Wang and Frame on twitter in response. Seems odd that one racial rifle (Gallente AR) has an operation skill that is useful for it and all its variants, yet the other racial rifle (Amarr SCR) has an operation skill that doesn't do anything for variants; it basically punishes using variants on the SCR. I dont suppose you got a reply? Sadly no, I'm certain CCP Frame read it though, he's active on Twitter. |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
946
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Posted - 2013.06.23 02:09:00 -
[114] - Quote
I guess "by design for the charged rifle" is sort of the point.... that it ONLY helps the charged rifle. I get the impression they didn't actually read the topic. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
4498
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Posted - 2013.06.23 02:12:00 -
[115] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:I guess "by design for the charged rifle" is sort of the point.... that it ONLY helps the charged rifle. I get the impression they didn't actually read the topic. That's what pissed me off about it, they seemed to take it as a bug report instead of a criticism of the design. |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
965
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Posted - 2013.06.24 05:16:00 -
[116] - Quote
Well, I can keep flogging the issue I suppose. |
Darken-Sol
BIG BAD W0LVES Eternal Syndicate
357
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Posted - 2013.06.24 05:23:00 -
[117] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:The more I use the carthum assault variant... I feel like a 5% reduction to kick would really help, esp since the duvolle, at ARO5 feels like it has no kick compared to the carthum.
Charge time redux on semi auto and kick redux on auto variants... would really help.
it shouldnt have any kick. |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
965
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Posted - 2013.06.24 05:24:00 -
[118] - Quote
Darken-Sol wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:The more I use the carthum assault variant... I feel like a 5% reduction to kick would really help, esp since the duvolle, at ARO5 feels like it has no kick compared to the carthum.
Charge time redux on semi auto and kick redux on auto variants... would really help. it shouldnt have any kick.
I think people just get the terms mixed up, honestly. It has very high dispersion, but the gun itself doesn't really have much recoil. |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
989
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Posted - 2013.06.25 18:59:00 -
[119] - Quote
I imagine this problem will get even worse when more variants are added. Presumably a "burst" scrambler wouldn't have a charge, and I wouldn't think a breach would either...
Just trying to make the scope of this passive skill actually encompass all the weapons it governs (like every other weapon skill in the game). |
Kelrie Nae'bre
not in a corporation
39
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Posted - 2013.06.26 09:43:00 -
[120] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:I imagine this problem will get even worse when more variants are added. Presumably a "burst" scrambler wouldn't have a charge, and I wouldn't think a breach would either...
Just trying to make the scope of this passive skill actually encompass all the weapons it governs (like every other weapon skill in the game).
Like the civil rights workers who had to face the injustice of "Separate but Equal" being upheld, you just have to keep fighting for what's right. Do not go quiet into that night. |
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