18x70 bullets gives me just enough to barely down most well fitted heavies o.O

The 10% damage increase should be REMOVED for the Tactical Assault Rifles, their damage was just right beforehand.

(Getting involved with forums again, since CCP did some nice fixes yesterday... I'm happy that they were quick to fix things for a change.)

Here are some proposals to get the Tactical balanced for the upcoming update (in case the nerf hammer goes its way. lots of the guys calling for the nerf were NOT here pre-Chromosome when the Tac really was OP. in other words, they don't know what they're asking for.)
So I really want input from Closed Beta people to help drive these numbers home, if you like them.



Repeat post, placed in solo thread for general views:

Ok. I'll put some numbers out, so CCP doesn't smash the weapon.

We need to be VERY careful when it comes to the Tactical Assault Rifle, because MANY of you were NOT here Pre-Chromosome when it was TRULY overpowered.

Some things have to be made clear:
1. You cannot cut the range on the Tactical AR. It's meant to be used at the current ranges. It's a precision and counter sniping weapon.

2. You cannot increase the kick on the Tactical AR. We did this pre-Chromosome, and broke the weapon for the entire build.

3. You cannot severely cut the damage. It's balanced to be more potent than a breach. It has to be. As a semi-auto weapon every shot needs to count.
Those are the only 3 things you CAN'T nerf. The tactical has a function that it MUST fulfill.

The 10% damage increase should be REMOVED for the Tactical Assault Rifles, their damage was just right beforehand.
These are my proposed numbers:

GLU-5 Tactical Assault Rifle
Damage: 67 HP
Rate of Fire: 620 RPM (compare with full auto Breach AR) down from 789.5
Accuracy Rating: 42.9 (similar hip fire spread to the Burst Scrambler Pistol) down from 56.1
Clip Size: 18 (reduction) down from 24
Max Ammo: 106 (reduction) down from 300

Duvolle Tactical Assault Rifle
Damage: 70 HP
Rate of Fire: 639 RPM (better than GLU-5, but still lowered) down from 789.5
Accuracy Rating: 43.5 (exactly .6 higher than the GLU-5, as intended) down from 56.7
Clip Size: 18 (just like the GLU-5)
Max Ammo: 106


So there you have it.
A pair of Tactical Assault Rifles, balanced but NOT broken.

References:
- Accuracy Rating reference taken from hipfire for Burst Scrambler Pistol since it has very poor hip fire accuracy (this should DRASTICALLY reduce the Tactical's effectiveness in CQC, since that is the biggest issue here).

- Rate of Fire reference taken from Breach AR and PRO Scrambler Pistols RPMs (these are in the 500RPM range, but the Tac should be SLIGHTLY, just SLIGHTLY faster, fast enough to respond to finger inputs, but not fast enough for modded inputs).

- Damage reference taken from pre-10% global damage buff (rounded lower).

- Ammo reference taken from nearly every other weapon in game (majority of weapons in the game have a max amount where 1 clip is equal to 1/4 to 1/6 of their maximum ammo).

Those are my numbers.
For consideration by CCP, and the community.

I fear any numbers in excess of these will severely reduce the effectiveness of the weapon.
I saw it break once, I don't want it to break again.

There is nothing wrong with the TAC AR as it is working just fine the way it is.

Running around with the Duvolle TAC AR costs over 100k ber go so of course this weapon should be good. Top of the line.

So the bottom line is that CCP do not have to do a damn thing about this weapon. Simple

37 rounds from a Duvolle drops a 1200 HP heavy, that leaves 23 rounds left in the clip at optimal range.
18 rounds in a Tac Duvolle drops a 1200 HP, if i dont miss a single round at optimal range.

Basically the Stock Duvolle has 11 more Tac rounds worth inside it clips in case he misses.

Going by these basic numbers, you just broke the Tac again, Congratz.

This growing thread of rancor says otherwise:

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=76001&find=unread


My post is a defensive one, to protect the Tactical AR from over nerf.

18x70 bullets gives me just enough to barely down most well fitted heavies o.O

37 rounds from a Duvolle drops a 1200 HP heavy, that leaves 23 rounds left in the clip at optimal range.
18 rounds in a Tac Duvolle drops a 1200 HP, if i dont miss a single round at optimal range.

Basically the Stock Duvolle has 11 more Tac rounds worth inside it clips in case he misses.

Going by these basic numbers, you just broke the Tac again, Congratz.

And this is why the Duvolle costs 47k while the TAC Duvolle costs 77k. What is it that you are not understanding kid?




A growing thread with crybabies tells me nothing. lol what a joke!

Grow a brain larger than a walnut will you?

So you are angry now? Mad because of a video game so you start to hate on people who dont think the same as you?

Are you born to lose or is this new?

There is nothing wrong with the TAC AR as it is working just fine the way it is.

Running around with the Duvolle TAC AR costs over 100k ber go so of course this weapon should be good. Top of the line.

So the bottom line is that CCP do not have to do a damn thing about this weapon. Simple

"I'm a terrible player, therefore I need this piece of equipment to make me powerful so I can kill people in 3 shots. Please, do not nerf this weapon or else I'll be terrible again..."

Llan Heindell.

Why do people think price should be used as a way to balance things?

The TAC AR is just fine the way it is and works just like a 77k weapon should.

Translates as:

"I'm a terrible player, therefore I need this piece of equipment to make me powerful so I can kill people in 3 shots. Please, do not nerf this weapon or else I'll be terrible again..."

@topic

The TAC Duv has 78 base damage. It is too much damage for a weapon with a range advantage. I say 60 is enough. Since you can shoot people before they are able to shoot you back, you don't really need the damage advantage because you'll already be dealing damage from outside the danger zone.

Llan Heindell.

There is nothing wrong with the TAC AR as it is working just fine the way it is.

Running around with the Duvolle TAC AR costs over 100k ber go so of course this weapon should be good. Top of the line.

So the bottom line is that CCP do not have to do a damn thing about this weapon. Simple

sorry bro, there will be a TAR nerf for sure, deal with it

106 ammo capacity? Hell no. It needs a rof decrease like you said and perhaps the 10% removed that's it. Also dislike your clip size reduction. 24 clip size for both would be nice

I was going to agree with you, to you say; removing the 10% boost weapon damage only from the Tactical...I don't think you thought that one thoroughly.

The full 10% damage boost in ALL weapons, needs to be rollback to what it was to start with.

Everyone seems to have their own personal agenda in this forums...

The only tweak the TAC AR needs is regarding its ROF.

It should have less ROF than the breach variant.

=> The higher the damage output per bullet, the lower the ROF.

Well, people are generally rolling much higher HP totals, and overall durability these days. I think CCP made a good call for the 10%. Sniper rifles actually hurt again for one. lol

But I dont think the Tactical needed it.
It basically punches as hard as a scrambler at excess 70m... that's a hell of a lot of power.
The 10% puts the duvy tac at 78, and the glu-5 at 75... that's pretty high.

Pre-10% they were working great. The 10% makes every weapon work, great, but no one was really fussing the tactical until after it was implemented.

lol I admit to having an agenda: 'wanting to buffer the incoming hit to the tactical' lol because i really like using it.

Blame high ROF. With the lowered recoil (which is good) it once again allow people to use as a decent CQC weapon. If it had something like 350-400dish ROF, it would be what it's suppose to be. SOmething between an AR and a Snipe. At CQC you could still pull it off but it wouldnt be confortable.

Well, people are generally rolling much higher HP totals, and overall durability these days. I think CCP made a good call for the 10%. Sniper rifles actually hurt again for one. lol

But I dont think the Tactical needed it.
It basically punches as hard as a scrambler at excess 70m... that's a hell of a lot of power.
The 10% puts the duvy tac at 78, and the glu-5 at 75... that's pretty high.

Pre-10% they were working great. The 10% makes every weapon work, great, but no one was really fussing the tactical until after it was implemented.

lol I admit to having an agenda: 'wanting to buffer the incoming hit to the tactical' lol because i really like using it.

Everyone started to complaint about the Tactical, AFTER the 10% boost..... coincidence ? I think not.

Everyone started to complaint about the Tactical, AFTER the 10% boost..... coincidence ? I think not.

[quote=Jathniel]
Everyone started to complaint about the Tactical, AFTER the 10% boost..... coincidence ? I think not.

37 rounds from a Duvolle drops a 1200 HP heavy, that leaves 23 rounds left in the clip at optimal range.
18 rounds in a Tac Duvolle drops a 1200 HP, if i dont miss a single round at optimal range.

Basically the Stock Duvolle has 11 more Tac rounds worth inside it clips in case he misses.

Going by these basic numbers, you just broke the Tac again, Congratz.

What you all seem to miss is that TAC AR aint supposed to be used with hip fire or under mid range... It's suppose to be half way between a classic AR and a classic Sniper Rifle.

Damage wise, it is
Range wise, it is
Clip Wise, it is
Bullet per bullet shot, it is.

Hip fire wise, it's not at all. Way too accurate. And very easy to shoot quicker than a breach AR can by taping like a maniac at close range. (been there, done it the entire build before chromosome...)

TAC AR at close range should be a pain to use. And its ROF should be below the Breach variant.

What you all seem to miss is that TAC AR aint supposed to be used with hip fire or under mid range... It's suppose to be half way between a classic AR and a classic Sniper Rifle.

Damage wise, it is
Range wise, it is
Clip Wise, it is
Bullet per bullet shot, it is.

Hip fire wise, it's not at all. Way too accurate. And very easy to shoot quicker than a breach AR can by taping like a maniac at close range. (been there, done it the entire build before chromosome...)

TAC AR at close range should be a pain to use. And its ROF should be below the Breach variant.

I'd rather not nerf the weapon at all.

But if it HAS to come under the hammer, I'm trying to put some numbers out, to retain a measure of effectiveness, while eliminating obvious abuses and imbalances.

I'm tired of CCP using a sword for the job of a scalpel.

I'd like to see hip fire have nasty recoil, each shot should kick hard, and accuracy will suffer, right now, its beyond a joke.

the rof would be fine if it wasn't for certain game control pads.

The damage needs dropping for sure tho.

My main issue with them is that I thought Uprising would seperate the sharpsshooter dependant, mostly skilless users from those who were actually skilled. Instead it unleashed a whole new skilless beast on the game, that for me is ruining it.

I actually think its the one thing thats a major flop in uprising, (caldari logi suits seemed OP, until i found the beauty of fx nades), but the TAR beats most guns at short range, and all from there on out. Easiest way to see it, if one gun is being used my the majority, its obviously in need of balance.

Another lil hater with nothing to say?

I am actually one of the best players in this game topping the list in 8 out of 10 games. You can challenge me any day of the week for ISK if you think any differently.

Again..

The TAC AR is just fine the way it is and works just like a 77k weapon should.

You say the TAR beats most guns in allranges. I agree, this why the ROF should be the only thing changed. If ROF was 300, the TAR would actually be inferior in closer ranges, bc Gek/Duvolle would have a higher DPS. If you also touched the dmg, it would ruin the gun.

@OP:
TAC AR cannot be fixed by numbers alone.
The issues are in handling mechanics which don't relate to numbers (other than programmer language numbers, that is).


I totally agree with Caz above:
The biggest thing wrong about TAC AR is negligble hip fire kick - and the ability to autofire because of it!
Niote that scoped view has strongish kick which limits autofire. Hipfire is the 'Thing' for TACs.


Currently TAC AR can be used:
- at melee distance - hip with full autofire.
- at short (about 3-15m) distance - hip with full autofire.
- at medium (about 15-40m) distance - hip with full autofire.
- at medium long (about 40-60m) distance - hip with full autofire while somewhat suffering from lack of proper sights OR scoped with bursts of 3-4 shots of autofire
- at long (60+m) distance - scoped with bursts of 2-3 shots autofire


Of the above the short, medium are especially broken and TAC AR excels against it's intended role. Note these two are the most lethal distances in which most effective kills are made in Dust so these ranges should be emphasized while doing balancing. These are also the ones where autofire TACs have 'unfair' advantage.
Honestly, TAC autofiring at hip is a monster.

Medium long is close to being balanced, there's healty competition with normal AR while TAC is somewhat advantageous currently.

Currently, long distance works nicely as it requires scoping and autofire has it's limitations due to kick. Limitations mean it takes a ton of skill to try to keep dot on target while autofiring. True, TAC AR is stronger at long range than any other AR, but that is what it's supposed to be.

Actually, scoped burst-autofiring TAC AR use feels very very much like firing a real assault rifle by hand and gives one of the greatest shooting experiences in video games.

It takes a decent amount of skill to hit while keeping the success of hitting rewarding! I even dare to say this shooting balance might be worth exporting to other rifles as well!


WHAT TO FIX:
1st: Fix = nerf hipfiring by giving it huge kick. This does two things:
- Sets AR > TAC AR at short and medium distances, autofire or fingertrigger. If TAC is difficult to use and therefore poor compared to other rifles at those ranges things are good.
- Breaks the short and medium distance usage as machine gun by autofiring (IMPORTANT!)
This should be implemented ASAP to let testers (us) to see if there's need for another nerf!


2nd: Tune down the damage a bit. Probably the removal of recent +10% damage is enough.
If there has to be some other nerf besides the first, then this done with a scalpel not nerfhammer.


3rd: This is a further option if autofire needs more controlling: even smaller clip size




TLDR;
Nerf the short-medium range hipfire autofiring. Do this first.
Careful with other nerfs/tunedowns before fixing that.
TAC at scoped view (long range) is ok.

What you all seem to miss is that TAC AR aint supposed to be used with hip fire or under mid range... It's suppose to be half way between a classic AR and a classic Sniper Rifle.

Damage wise, it is
Range wise, it is
Clip Wise, it is
Bullet per bullet shot, it is.

Hip fire wise, it's not at all. Way too accurate. And very easy to shoot quicker than a breach AR can by taping like a maniac at close range. (been there, done it the entire build before chromosome...)

TAC AR at close range should be a pain to use. And its ROF should be below the Breach variant.

I take your point, but if it goes too low, you wont be able to down critical targets at critical moments.
The RoF recommendation was simply to prevent modded input....
Because under 400RPM is very slow, and not semi-auto friendly...

As it stands i think its all I've seen in the kill feed recently and sometimes it would seem 3 mercs on 1 clip in less than a couple of seconds is not that difficult. I know there ar some good shooters out there but that seems a bit fishy to me.

@OP:
. . .The biggest thing wrong about TAC AR is negligble hip fire kick - and the ability to autofire because of it!
Niote that scoped view has strongish kick which limits autofire. Hipfire is the 'Thing' for TACs. . .
Honestly, TAC autofiring at hip is a monster.

Medium long is close to being balanced, there's healty competition with normal AR while TAC is somewhat advantageous currently.

Currently, long distance works nicely as it requires scoping and autofire has it's limitations due to kick. Limitations mean it takes a ton of skill to try to keep dot on target while autofiring. True, TAC AR is stronger at long range than any other AR, but that is what it's supposed to be. . .


WHAT TO FIX:
1st: Fix = nerf hipfiring by giving it huge kick. This does two things:
- Sets AR > TAC AR at short and medium distances, autofire or fingertrigger. If TAC is difficult to use and therefore poor compared to other rifles at those ranges things are good.
- Breaks the short and medium distance usage as machine gun by autofiring (IMPORTANT!)
This should be implemented ASAP to let testers (us) to see if there's need for another nerf!


2nd: Tune down the damage a bit. Probably the removal of recent +10% damage is enough.
If there has to be some other nerf besides the first, then this done with a scalpel not nerfhammer.


3rd: This is a further option if autofire needs more controlling: even smaller clip size


TLDR;
Nerf the short-medium range hipfire autofiring. Do this first.
Careful with other nerfs/tunedowns before fixing that.
TAC at scoped view (long range) is ok.

You do realise its described as a Medium Damage, Single-Shot weapon?

So yes, just drop the ROF to 400 and let's see from there, if it makes the weapon useless then raise it until its right? But better to play with one attribute than all of them - the only issue then would be CQC, but if you get used to the idea that its a bit like a LR and that's it's not meant to be used for CQC it becomes a non-issue.

You do realize that 600 RPM is still 10 shots per second? thats a hell of a lot faster than I can click.

Most people, even hip firing, wont notice anything until its lower than about 240 RPM.

Keep the damage, Lower RoF to around 140 for the GLU and 150 for the Duvolle Tac. Then fix range on everything else, and you'd probably find that, while it still works in CQC, its gonna suck for it.

At 150 RPM you're looking at 2.5 shots per second. That actually doesn't sound bad to me.

That's extremely low RoF for an AR. Granted that WILL decisively solve the CQC problem BUT...!

You'll need to bump up damage dramatically to compensate, probably to around 95-120 HP range.

There is a fine line here, because you dont want to nerf the gun in CQ to the point of it being unusable. I think at range right now it is good as is. CQ its a bit OP but it shouldnt be the case where "CQ you lose to any other AR"

If you're going to nerf it CQ, there needs to be a tradeoff or it will quickly go back to being used by nobody ever. Increased headshot damage would be acceptable.

In fact, I think the best solution is a pretty heafty damage decrease and a prett heafty headshot bonus increase. Decrease damage by like 30% and double the headshot bonus.

Also, is there anywhere that shows the actual ranges on guns? Cause im pretty sure the non TAC duvualle has pretty beastly range compared to the other ARs...

From what I can tell, CCP's basic solution for hip-firing the sniper rifle is some insane random spread, as in, the bullet goes out in front of you somewhere, but definitely not close to the center target, and so only lucky wild shots will land. I wouldn't call it an elegant solution, but it essentially breaks no-scoping with the 'wrong' weapon type.

Another lil hater with nothing to say?

I am actually one of the best players in this game topping the list in 8 out of 10 games. You can challenge me any day of the week for ISK if you think any differently.

Again..

The TAC AR is just fine the way it is and works just like a 77k weapon should.

Please Jin, ignore the trolls. I don't want the thread to get derailed.
>.<

Would like more opinions on these numbers.

GLU-5 Tactical Assault Rifle
Damage: 61 HP
Rate of Fire: 450 RPM (compare with full auto Breach AR) down from 789.5
Accuracy Rating: 42.9 (similar hip fire spread to the Burst Scrambler Pistol) down from 56.1
Clip Size: 30 (increased) up from 24
Max Ammo: 180 (reduction) down from 300

Duvolle Tactical Assault Rifle
Damage: 64.2 HP
Rate of Fire: 450 RPM
Accuracy Rating: 43.5 (exactly .6 higher than the GLU-5, as intended) down from 56.7
Clip Size: 30
Max Ammo: 180

You just realized you're going to need to be accurate with a duvolle tactical, Congratz.
Better not miss, genius.

If you had an attention span long enough to realize the thread was intending to be a nerf buffer you'd spare me the sarcasm.

There's growing antipathy against the Tactical.
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=76001&find=unread

I dont use the tactical, i use the semi SCR and i am limited to 15-18 rounds with 20% damage reduction to the Amarr Heavy witch puts me at a pretty good value to discuss 18 rounds in that Tac.

24 rounds would be a better number then 18, take it from someone who overheats at 18 and while some heavies drop faster if i get there head, it can go both ways.

18 will see this weapon in disuse like the Laser Rifle.