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Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
325
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 21:15:00 -
[61] - Quote
KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:@OP: . . .The biggest thing wrong about TAC AR is negligble hip fire kick - and the ability to autofire because of it! Niote that scoped view has strongish kick which limits autofire. Hipfire is the 'Thing' for TACs. . . Honestly, TAC autofiring at hip is a monster.
Medium long is close to being balanced, there's healty competition with normal AR while TAC is somewhat advantageous currently.
Currently, long distance works nicely as it requires scoping and autofire has it's limitations due to kick. Limitations mean it takes a ton of skill to try to keep dot on target while autofiring. True, TAC AR is stronger at long range than any other AR, but that is what it's supposed to be. . .
WHAT TO FIX: 1st: Fix = nerf hipfiring by giving it huge kick. This does two things: - Sets AR > TAC AR at short and medium distances, autofire or fingertrigger. If TAC is difficult to use and therefore poor compared to other rifles at those ranges things are good. - Breaks the short and medium distance usage as machine gun by autofiring (IMPORTANT!) This should be implemented ASAP to let testers (us) to see if there's need for another nerf!
2nd: Tune down the damage a bit. Probably the removal of recent +10% damage is enough. If there has to be some other nerf besides the first, then this done with a scalpel not nerfhammer.
3rd: This is a further option if autofire needs more controlling: even smaller clip size
TLDR; Nerf the short-medium range hipfire autofiring. Do this first. Careful with other nerfs/tunedowns before fixing that. TAC at scoped view (long range) is ok.
The hip fire thing is the absolute biggest issue right now. Everything you address, I believe my numbers accomplish. Please review my listed references.
- Accuracy Rating was taken from the Burst Scrambler Pistol, this would make the hip fire accuracy atrocious, as it needs to be. Feel free to worsen it a little if you want.
- Damage was toned down by 10% with my numbers, then rounded to the lowest 1. (If damage is reduced much further, you won't be able to down high defense targets (proto-shield tanks, Heavies), with one magazine. With these numbers, you'll be able to take down all but the absolute toughest heavies with one mag.
- I also agree with the reduced clip size, that's why I kept my original numbers up. A small clip forces a user to be more accurate, just like with the tactical sniper rifle.
- I estimated the lower 600 RPM range as an ideal cap for the Tactical AR (i had no weapon in the 600RPM range to reference). This prevents it from being as fast as the full-auto ARs, even IF someone used modded inputs, but enables it to retain smooth semi-auto response from finger taps. I placed it to be faster than the proto scramblers because the scrambler pistols do not respond to my hand inputs as I would like. As a caveat, the reduced accuracy rating taken from the burst scrambler pistol WILL without fail mitigate this RoF, and prevent hip fire abuse.
I don't think missing with the hard-code is needed for the tactical. Just keep adjusting its hardpoints.
I was up late doing all the limited testing I could.
I really wish we had access to the test server for proper testing.
Happy Violentime wrote:You do realise its described as a Medium Damage, Single-Shot weapon?
So yes, just drop the ROF to 400 and let's see from there, if it makes the weapon useless then raise it until its right? But better to play with one attribute than all of them - the only issue then would be CQC, but if you get used to the idea that its a bit like a LR and that's it's not meant to be used for CQC it becomes a non-issue.
Yes, but in the context of the game "single-shot" = "semi-automatic".
The terms in real life work as: Single Shot/Bolt Action/Manual = each round is manually loaded and fired one a time. Automatic = weapon automatically loads and fires rounds when the trigger is held. Semi-Automatic = weapon automatically loads every round, but only fires 1 (or however predetermined number of rounds) when the trigger is held.
The Tactical in Dust is coded reflects characteristics of a semi-auto weapon, and this was intended. A 400RPM cap would diminish this. The RoF I proposed is supposed to mitigate modded inputs ONLY. |
ZDub 303
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
125
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Posted - 2013.05.13 21:24:00 -
[62] - Quote
You do realize that 600 RPM is still 10 shots per second? thats a hell of a lot faster than I can click.
Most people, even hip firing, wont notice anything until its lower than about 240 RPM.
Keep the damage, Lower RoF to around 140 for the GLU and 150 for the Duvolle Tac. Then fix range on everything else, and you'd probably find that, while it still works in CQC, its gonna suck for it.
At 150 RPM you're looking at 2.5 shots per second. That actually doesn't sound bad to me.
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Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
325
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Posted - 2013.05.13 21:34:00 -
[63] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:You do realize that 600 RPM is still 10 shots per second? thats a hell of a lot faster than I can click.
Most people, even hip firing, wont notice anything until its lower than about 240 RPM.
Keep the damage, Lower RoF to around 140 for the GLU and 150 for the Duvolle Tac. Then fix range on everything else, and you'd probably find that, while it still works in CQC, its gonna suck for it.
At 150 RPM you're looking at 2.5 shots per second. That actually doesn't sound bad to me.
That's extremely low RoF for an AR. Granted that WILL decisively solve the CQC problem BUT...!
You'll need to bump up damage dramatically to compensate, probably to around 95-120 HP range. (NOTE: Tactical Sniper Rifle is at 100 RPM... you're approaching sniper territory dangerously close with a RoF drop that severe.) At this point, you're not an AR anymore... You're turning into a sniper rifle.
The 600RPM is mitigated by the greatly reduced Burst Scrambler Pistol accuracy rating.
10 taps per second isn't a bad mitigation. There are people that can do 15 taps per second, just google it.
Some players also hit R1 using their pointer and middle fingers. I'm trying to think of everyone here. |
Bones McGavins
TacoCat Industries
166
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Posted - 2013.05.13 21:34:00 -
[64] - Quote
There is a fine line here, because you dont want to nerf the gun in CQ to the point of it being unusable. I think at range right now it is good as is. CQ its a bit OP but it shouldnt be the case where "CQ you lose to any other AR"
If you're going to nerf it CQ, there needs to be a tradeoff or it will quickly go back to being used by nobody ever. Increased headshot damage would be acceptable.
In fact, I think the best solution is a pretty heafty damage decrease and a prett heafty headshot bonus increase. Decrease damage by like 30% and double the headshot bonus.
Also, is there anywhere that shows the actual ranges on guns? Cause im pretty sure the non TAC duvualle has pretty beastly range compared to the other ARs... |
ZDub 303
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
125
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Posted - 2013.05.13 21:45:00 -
[65] - Quote
Jathniel wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:You do realize that 600 RPM is still 10 shots per second? thats a hell of a lot faster than I can click.
Most people, even hip firing, wont notice anything until its lower than about 240 RPM.
Keep the damage, Lower RoF to around 140 for the GLU and 150 for the Duvolle Tac. Then fix range on everything else, and you'd probably find that, while it still works in CQC, its gonna suck for it.
At 150 RPM you're looking at 2.5 shots per second. That actually doesn't sound bad to me.
That's extremely low RoF for an AR. Granted that WILL decisively solve the CQC problem BUT...! You'll need to bump up damage dramatically to compensate, probably to around 95-120 HP range.
Done, omg do it do it do it!!
Honestly, thats the point though right? Its lighter and smaller and has no sway... less problematic when strafing, yet it plays like a tactical sniper rifle.
Yep sounds good to me.
Otherwise whats the point? You can bring the RoF down to 400 and I still wont notice. I can realistically hip fire about 5 times per second and still actually stay on target in CQC. So until you take the RoF down to under 180 I will continue to beast mode it in CQC and im sure most everyone else will too.
You could also kill the accuracy but that kills the spirit of the weapon imo... So in CQC its just spray and pray and hope you dont run out of ammo with **** accuracy? Its a gun that screams bullet efficiency to me, not dead on headshots when ADS and lulz I cant hit anything when hipfiring.
Esp if you're gonna drop its ammo capacity down to 5 clips or whatever the Reg AR is. |
ZDub 303
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
125
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 21:46:00 -
[66] - Quote
Bones McGavins wrote:There is a fine line here, because you dont want to nerf the gun in CQ to the point of it being unusable. I think at range right now it is good as is. CQ its a bit OP but it shouldnt be the case where "CQ you lose to any other AR"
If you're going to nerf it CQ, there needs to be a tradeoff or it will quickly go back to being used by nobody ever. Increased headshot damage would be acceptable.
In fact, I think the best solution is a pretty heafty damage decrease and a prett heafty headshot bonus increase. Decrease damage by like 30% and double the headshot bonus.
Also, is there anywhere that shows the actual ranges on guns? Cause im pretty sure the non TAC duvualle has pretty beastly range compared to the other ARs...
CCP doesnt list info on ranges... no idea why. |
Bones McGavins
TacoCat Industries
166
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 22:03:00 -
[67] - Quote
I think when it comes to the TAR CQ you have to compare it to the scrambler pistol. Because at that range, it pretty much functions similarly.
(pre 10% bonus stats) Scrambler Pistol: Damage 72, ROF: 400.0 RPM Breach SP: Damage: 115.2, ROF: 133.3 GLU: Damge 68.4 ROF: 789.5
Keep in mind I am also comparing META 1 pistols to a META 4 AR...
But yeah, nobody uses the breach scrambler pistols, they are a novelty item. So if you get the ROF anywhere NEAR 133.3 you will effectively kill the TAR. Obviously there is some room between the current TAR and that. Perhaps the current scrambler rate is a good compremise. The TAR would have a range and clip advantage over the scrambler, but the scrambler would have a slight damage and BIG headshot bonus over it.
Then if you want, add a breach tactical that fires 120+ damage shots at a rate closer to that breach pistol. But either way, up close the TAR should feel like a scrambler pistol without the massive headshot. Otherwise you solve very ltitle from its nerf because skilled folks will just swap to the scrambler in CQ and still own folks relying on pray and spray AR. |
Luk Manag
of Terror
5
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Posted - 2013.05.13 22:12:00 -
[68] - Quote
From what I can tell, CCP's basic solution for hip-firing the sniper rifle is some insane random spread, as in, the bullet goes out in front of you somewhere, but definitely not close to the center target, and so only lucky wild shots will land. I wouldn't call it an elegant solution, but it essentially breaks no-scoping with the 'wrong' weapon type. |
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
325
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 22:34:00 -
[69] - Quote
Luk Manag wrote:From what I can tell, CCP's basic solution for hip-firing the sniper rifle is some insane random spread, as in, the bullet goes out in front of you somewhere, but definitely not close to the center target, and so only lucky wild shots will land. I wouldn't call it an elegant solution, but it essentially breaks no-scoping with the 'wrong' weapon type.
BURST-SCRAMBLER-PISTOL hip fire spread. Unless you ADS with that gun, its very hard to hit anything reliably. Even people 10 meters in front of you.
That's why I used its Accuracy Rating in these numbers. I encourage everyone that can, to hip fire one of these, and see if they set a good mark for hip fire accuracy for the Tac AR.
Tell me what you think.
After consideration, the RoF will likely have to come down into the 500 RPM range (like the proto scrambler pistols). |
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
330
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 09:07:00 -
[70] - Quote
New proposed values after reading the thread.
GLU-5 Tactical Assault Rifle Damage: 61 HP Rate of Fire: 450 RPM (compare with full auto Breach AR) down from 789.5 Accuracy Rating: 42.9 (similar hip fire spread to the Burst Scrambler Pistol) down from 56.1 Clip Size: 30 (increased) up from 24 Max Ammo: 180 (reduction) down from 300
Duvolle Tactical Assault Rifle Damage: 64.2 HP Rate of Fire: 450 RPM (better than GLU-5, but still lowered) down from 789.5 Accuracy Rating: 43.5 (exactly .6 higher than the GLU-5, as intended) down from 56.7 Clip Size: 30 Max Ammo: 180
In case a nerf is in the works, is this acceptable to folks in the community? |
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Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
3036
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 09:22:00 -
[71] - Quote
I think the numbers here are pretty good. |
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
332
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 09:28:00 -
[72] - Quote
Thanks. I'm going to keep this bumped, and if enough people approve, I'll present it to some CPM guys. Maybe they will be able to throw these numbers at whoever is in charge of nerfing, for a final approval. |
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
370
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 13:01:00 -
[73] - Quote
Would like more opinions on these numbers.
GLU-5 Tactical Assault Rifle Damage: 61 HP Rate of Fire: 450 RPM (compare with full auto Breach AR) down from 789.5 Accuracy Rating: 42.9 (similar hip fire spread to the Burst Scrambler Pistol) down from 56.1 Clip Size: 30 (increased) up from 24 Max Ammo: 180 (reduction) down from 300
Duvolle Tactical Assault Rifle Damage: 64.2 HP Rate of Fire: 450 RPM Accuracy Rating: 43.5 (exactly .6 higher than the GLU-5, as intended) down from 56.7 Clip Size: 30 Max Ammo: 180 |
Jin Robot
Foxhound Corporation General Tso's Alliance
612
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 13:35:00 -
[74] - Quote
Sir Petersen wrote:Llan Heindell wrote:
"I'm a terrible player, therefore I need this piece of equipment to make me powerful so I can kill people in 3 shots. Please, do not nerf this weapon or else I'll be terrible again..."
Llan Heindell.
Another lil hater with nothing to say? I am actually one of the best players in this game topping the list in 8 out of 10 games. You can challenge me any day of the week for ISK if you think any differently. Again.. The TAC AR is just fine the way it is and works just like a 77k weapon should. Lets see how well you do without OP TAC. You have just solidified the point against you. 77k isk =/= justified OPness |
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
371
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 13:51:00 -
[75] - Quote
Please Jin, ignore the trolls. I don't want the thread to get derailed. >.<
Would like more opinions on these numbers.
GLU-5 Tactical Assault Rifle Damage: 61 HP Rate of Fire: 450 RPM (compare with full auto Breach AR) down from 789.5 Accuracy Rating: 42.9 (similar hip fire spread to the Burst Scrambler Pistol) down from 56.1 Clip Size: 30 (increased) up from 24 Max Ammo: 180 (reduction) down from 300
Duvolle Tactical Assault Rifle Damage: 64.2 HP Rate of Fire: 450 RPM Accuracy Rating: 43.5 (exactly .6 higher than the GLU-5, as intended) down from 56.7 Clip Size: 30 Max Ammo: 180 |
Jin Robot
Foxhound Corporation General Tso's Alliance
612
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 14:01:00 -
[76] - Quote
Jathniel wrote:Please Jin, ignore the trolls. I don't want the thread to get derailed. >.<
Would like more opinions on these numbers.
GLU-5 Tactical Assault Rifle Damage: 61 HP Rate of Fire: 450 RPM (compare with full auto Breach AR) down from 789.5 Accuracy Rating: 42.9 (similar hip fire spread to the Burst Scrambler Pistol) down from 56.1 Clip Size: 30 (increased) up from 24 Max Ammo: 180 (reduction) down from 300
Duvolle Tactical Assault Rifle Damage: 64.2 HP Rate of Fire: 450 RPM Accuracy Rating: 43.5 (exactly .6 higher than the GLU-5, as intended) down from 56.7 Clip Size: 30 Max Ammo: 180 sorry forgot to apply my patented "Troll-be-gone" spray. I agree we dont want to go from OP to UP, but something must be done. |
Rei Shepard
Spectre II
303
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 14:02:00 -
[77] - Quote
Jathniel wrote:Rei Shepard wrote:Jathniel wrote:(Getting involved with forums again, since CCP did some nice fixes yesterday... I'm happy that they were quick to fix things for a change.)
Here are some proposals to get the Tactical balanced for the upcoming update (in case the nerf hammer goes its way. lots of the guys calling for the nerf were NOT here pre-Chromosome when the Tac really was OP. in other words, they don't know what they're asking for.) So I really want input from Closed Beta people to help drive these numbers home, if you like them.
Repeat post, placed in solo thread for general views:
Ok. I'll put some numbers out, so CCP doesn't smash the weapon.
We need to be VERY careful when it comes to the Tactical Assault Rifle, because MANY of you were NOT here Pre-Chromosome when it was TRULY overpowered.
Some things have to be made clear: 1. You cannot cut the range on the Tactical AR. It's meant to be used at the current ranges. It's a precision and counter sniping weapon.
2. You cannot increase the kick on the Tactical AR. We did this pre-Chromosome, and broke the weapon for the entire build.
3. You cannot severely cut the damage. It's balanced to be more potent than a breach. It has to be. As a semi-auto weapon every shot needs to count. Those are the only 3 things you CAN'T nerf. The tactical has a function that it MUST fulfill.
The 10% damage increase should be REMOVED for the Tactical Assault Rifles, their damage was just right beforehand. These are my proposed numbers:
GLU-5 Tactical Assault Rifle Damage: 67 HP Rate of Fire: 620 RPM (compare with full auto Breach AR) down from 789.5 Accuracy Rating: 42.9 (similar hip fire spread to the Burst Scrambler Pistol) down from 56.1 Clip Size: 18 (reduction) down from 24 Max Ammo: 106 (reduction) down from 300
Duvolle Tactical Assault Rifle Damage: 70 HP Rate of Fire: 639 RPM (better than GLU-5, but still lowered) down from 789.5 Accuracy Rating: 43.5 (exactly .6 higher than the GLU-5, as intended) down from 56.7 Clip Size: 18 (just like the GLU-5) Max Ammo: 106
So there you have it. A pair of Tactical Assault Rifles, balanced but NOT broken.
References: - Accuracy Rating reference taken from hipfire for Burst Scrambler Pistol since it has very poor hip fire accuracy (this should DRASTICALLY reduce the Tactical's effectiveness in CQC, since that is the biggest issue here).
- Rate of Fire reference taken from Breach AR and PRO Scrambler Pistols RPMs (these are in the 500RPM range, but the Tac should be SLIGHTLY, just SLIGHTLY faster, fast enough to respond to finger inputs, but not fast enough for modded inputs).
- Damage reference taken from pre-10% global damage buff (rounded lower).
- Ammo reference taken from nearly every other weapon in game (majority of weapons in the game have a max amount where 1 clip is equal to 1/4 to 1/6 of their maximum ammo).
Those are my numbers. For consideration by CCP, and the community.
I fear any numbers in excess of these will severely reduce the effectiveness of the weapon. I saw it break once, I don't want it to break again. 37 rounds from a Duvolle drops a 1200 HP heavy, that leaves 23 rounds left in the clip at optimal range. 18 rounds in a Tac Duvolle drops a 1200 HP, if i dont miss a single round at optimal range. Basically the Stock Duvolle has 11 more Tac rounds worth inside it clips in case he misses. Going by these basic numbers, you just broke the Tac again, Congratz. You just realized you're going to need to be accurate with a duvolle tactical, Congratz. Better not miss, genius. If you had an attention span long enough to realize the thread was intending to be a nerf buffer you'd spare me the sarcasm. There's growing antipathy against the Tactical. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=76001&find=unread
I dont use the tactical, i use the semi SCR and i am limited to 15-18 rounds with 20% damage reduction to the Amarr Heavy witch puts me at a pretty good value to discuss 18 rounds in that Tac.
24 rounds would be a better number then 18, take it from someone who overheats at 18 and while some heavies drop faster if i get there head, it can go both ways.
18 will see this weapon in disuse like the Laser Rifle.
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Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
373
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 09:07:00 -
[78] - Quote
Rei Shepard wrote:Jathniel wrote:Rei Shepard wrote:Jathniel wrote:(Getting involved with forums again, since CCP did some nice fixes yesterday... I'm happy that they were quick to fix things for a change.)
Here are some proposals to get the Tactical balanced for the upcoming update (in case the nerf hammer goes its way. lots of the guys calling for the nerf were NOT here pre-Chromosome when the Tac really was OP. in other words, they don't know what they're asking for.) So I really want input from Closed Beta people to help drive these numbers home, if you like them.
Repeat post, placed in solo thread for general views:
Ok. I'll put some numbers out, so CCP doesn't smash the weapon.
We need to be VERY careful when it comes to the Tactical Assault Rifle, because MANY of you were NOT here Pre-Chromosome when it was TRULY overpowered.
Some things have to be made clear: 1. You cannot cut the range on the Tactical AR. It's meant to be used at the current ranges. It's a precision and counter sniping weapon.
2. You cannot increase the kick on the Tactical AR. We did this pre-Chromosome, and broke the weapon for the entire build.
3. You cannot severely cut the damage. It's balanced to be more potent than a breach. It has to be. As a semi-auto weapon every shot needs to count. Those are the only 3 things you CAN'T nerf. The tactical has a function that it MUST fulfill.
The 10% damage increase should be REMOVED for the Tactical Assault Rifles, their damage was just right beforehand. These are my proposed numbers:
GLU-5 Tactical Assault Rifle Damage: 67 HP Rate of Fire: 620 RPM (compare with full auto Breach AR) down from 789.5 Accuracy Rating: 42.9 (similar hip fire spread to the Burst Scrambler Pistol) down from 56.1 Clip Size: 18 (reduction) down from 24 Max Ammo: 106 (reduction) down from 300
Duvolle Tactical Assault Rifle Damage: 70 HP Rate of Fire: 639 RPM (better than GLU-5, but still lowered) down from 789.5 Accuracy Rating: 43.5 (exactly .6 higher than the GLU-5, as intended) down from 56.7 Clip Size: 18 (just like the GLU-5) Max Ammo: 106
So there you have it. A pair of Tactical Assault Rifles, balanced but NOT broken.
References: - Accuracy Rating reference taken from hipfire for Burst Scrambler Pistol since it has very poor hip fire accuracy (this should DRASTICALLY reduce the Tactical's effectiveness in CQC, since that is the biggest issue here).
- Rate of Fire reference taken from Breach AR and PRO Scrambler Pistols RPMs (these are in the 500RPM range, but the Tac should be SLIGHTLY, just SLIGHTLY faster, fast enough to respond to finger inputs, but not fast enough for modded inputs).
- Damage reference taken from pre-10% global damage buff (rounded lower).
- Ammo reference taken from nearly every other weapon in game (majority of weapons in the game have a max amount where 1 clip is equal to 1/4 to 1/6 of their maximum ammo).
Those are my numbers. For consideration by CCP, and the community.
I fear any numbers in excess of these will severely reduce the effectiveness of the weapon. I saw it break once, I don't want it to break again. 37 rounds from a Duvolle drops a 1200 HP heavy, that leaves 23 rounds left in the clip at optimal range. 18 rounds in a Tac Duvolle drops a 1200 HP, if i dont miss a single round at optimal range. Basically the Stock Duvolle has 11 more Tac rounds worth inside it clips in case he misses. Going by these basic numbers, you just broke the Tac again, Congratz. You just realized you're going to need to be accurate with a duvolle tactical, Congratz. Better not miss, genius. If you had an attention span long enough to realize the thread was intending to be a nerf buffer you'd spare me the sarcasm. There's growing antipathy against the Tactical. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=76001&find=unread I dont use the tactical, i use the semi SCR and i am limited to 15-18 rounds with 20% damage reduction to the Amarr Heavy witch puts me at a pretty good value to discuss 18 rounds in that Tac. 24 rounds would be a better number then 18, take it from someone who overheats at 18 and while some heavies drop faster if i get there head, it can go both ways. 18 will see this weapon in disuse like the Laser Rifle.
Granted. Sorry. I'll have to change the numbers on the opening post. These are the current numbers.
GLU-5 Tactical Assault Rifle Damage: 61 HP Rate of Fire: 450 RPM (compare with full auto Breach AR) down from 789.5 Accuracy Rating: 42.9 (similar hip fire spread to the Burst Scrambler Pistol) down from 56.1 Clip Size: 30 (increased) up from 24 Max Ammo: 180 (reduction) down from 300
Duvolle Tactical Assault Rifle Damage: 64.2 HP Rate of Fire: 450 RPM Accuracy Rating: 43.5 (exactly .6 higher than the GLU-5, as intended) down from 56.7 Clip Size: 30 Max Ammo: 180 |
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