I got confused with the "Remove Base, Advanced, and Prototype Frames" part. Can you use an example, like Amarr medium frames and its specialization, which tiers will be available in the basic frames, and which tiers will be available in the specializations?

A major discrepancy right now is that in almost every situation the Proto Basic frame outperforms any T2 variant except for the Proto T2.

That is, a Caldari Assault C/1 is outperformed by a Proto Caldari Medium Frame. You see 0 benefit for speccing into T2 suits until you have spent 3mil SP. There is no progression. It is Proto or nothing on the T2 end.

A major discrepancy right now is that in almost every situation the Proto Basic frame outperforms any T2 variant except for the Proto T2.

That is, a Caldari Assault C/1 is outperformed by a Proto Caldari Medium Frame. You see 0 benefit for speccing into T2 suits until you have spent 3mil SP. There is no progression. It is Proto or nothing on the T2 end.

Hence The whole idea in the first place, Day 1 assault suit in this new layout would have the same exact bonuses localized bonuses as the previous frame but similar to the previous frame the fittings will be limited until you raise the skill up further.

(With no tree changes)

Old Progression:
Amarr Heavy Militia Suit
Amarr heavy suit A-1
Amarr Heavy Suit A/1
Amarr Heavy Suit Ak. 0
Amarr Sentinel suit A-1
Amarr Sentinel A/1 Suit
Amarr Sentinel Ak.0

This idea's new progression:
Amarr Heavy Militia Suit
Amarr Heavy Suit
Amarr Sentinel Suit.

Level of the suit skill will increase the quality of gear that can be fitted onto the suit, at lvl 1 the frame may only be able to support close to full base modules, at lvl 5 it can support a mix of prototype and advanced modules.

This could be alleviated by changing the specialized requirements from linear to a tandem approach

For Assault this means:

Assault I needs Medium I
Assault II needs Medium II
Assault n needs Medium n

This would allow to preserve the STD=>ADV=>PRO situation and allow players to decide between faster specialization and overall performance. It also allows for more gradual progress than the current system.

So the specializations will only have 1 tier available equivalent to prototype.
Will the basic frame version also be prototype equivalent?
What will the militia be equivalent to?
(I reorganized your progression example to better understand)

Militia suits in this progression will be reworked to the following:
Limited Fittings but similar slot layout as the Military Grade Frames.
No Per Level Bonus
No Skill Requirement
Host of strong (25-40%!) 'built-in' bonuses that sample's that suit's future progression.

Do you imagine those bonuses to reflect the possible specilizations or rather to point to the basic suits?

If it's the former i can see how people will fit all "bonused" modules and mask the "gimped" nature such a suit would have otherwise, if fitting attributes allow for it.

Don't take away the Logi Sidearm. I know there are a lot of Caldari logis running around like Assault+1 but don't punish the whole suit class. Logistics + Mass Drivers is like peanut butter and jelly. (Nerfed jelly)

This is why I noted there is range bonus for side arms and the needs for a better side arms bunch such as carbine rifles.

This is why I noted there is range bonus for side arms and the needs for a better side arms bunch such as carbine rifles.

Logis:

Well if you've been around the past days you already KNOW im against Logis being the most powerful suits. Here are some objective and FAIR ways that the drop suits could be balanced.

1st Option: Leave them as they are, but have a BIG CPU/PG decrease. Also replace the Path skill :+1HP to dropsuit armor rep rate , TO : 5% CPU/PG REDUCTION of equipment per level.

2nd Option:Limit the weapons they can use so people dont abuse Logi armors as Assault v.2.0. Weapons could be Sidearms, Laser rifles, Plasma cannons,shotguns,swarm launchers. No assault type weapons and no sniper rifles.

3rd option, have individual Balance tweaks to each suit:
Logi Min:- +0.2 speed increase.
- Minus one equipment slot.
Logi Cal: -Change= ''+5% efficiency to shield extenders per level ''/ To = '' +3% efficiency to shield extenders per level''
- 8 slots. take out 1 low powered slot [--]. Total 5-3
-Increase the Depleted shield recharge to 8s.
Logi Amarr:- 10 - 20 More Armor
- one more equipment slot
- 10 more stamina
Logi Gal:- 8 more stamina
- Sield recharge rate to 12 per s

SCOUTS:
The scouts got a huge nerf. The Proto suit from chromosome had a total of 6 slots (3 and 3) and now the maximum total is 5 slots for scouts. Any reason the scout s needed a NERF? And while all other suits got more powerful the scout is now even weaker.

Possible Fix:

-Both Drop Suits: Change Shield depleted time to 6s.
If speed is their thing, make them REAL speedy, + 0.2 in both movement and sprinting speed.

Scout Gal. Give them a High powered [ | ] Slot. That should make the trick . Total slots 6. ( 2 [ | ] and 4 [--] )
Scout Min. Give them Another High powered slot [ | ]. Total 6.. ( 4 [ | ] and 2 [--] )

Heavy:
The heavy is another weird case. Somehow the fact it now has 405 both shield and armor makes it gain great passive bonuses. They are cheaper , so thats good. But the fact that proto Logi suits can tank more and better than the heavy just beats its purpose.They are supposed to be he most powerful drop suits in terms of Resistance.

Possible Fix:
-1 High Powered slot [ | ]. Making it ( 2 [ | ] and 4 [--] ). If logis have so much slots because they dont have sidearms, Heavies deserve one more at least for not being able to carry equipment)
-Replace The +2% Heavy weapon Reload Speed. That path bonus is ******** since there is already a skill to do that and heavy weapons will always be slow to reload anyways. Instead put something usefull, like: +2% Armor Damage resistance. Similar like what Vehicles have, this skill would make that at level 5 of the Amarr heavy path the Soldier would receive 10% LESS DAMAGE FROM ALL WEAPONS while being hit (Applies only to armor, not shields). Not only would this make the suit a lot more attractive but actually worth in completing the whole Amarr Heavy path and give these drop suits a chance in the battlefield.As it is the bonuses of the heavy suit are just crap.
-Slight CPU/PG increase

Assaults:

The assault suits are pretty much balanced at the moment. They all have 7 slots except the Amarr that has 6.
Some minor twiches and they would be fine.

All assaults:Assaults are , well , offensive units. They need speed in order to be offensive. + 0.2 increase in speed too all assault suits. except Minmatar. Minmatar +0.2 movement speed and +0.1 sprinting speed.

Assault Minmatar: Increase Stamina to 200. Depleted Shield recharge to 8s.Shield recharge rate to 15/s.
Assault Caldari:I think the drop suit is balanced.With the speed increase they would do great.
Assault AMARR: Since they have as path bonus, something that benefits LASERS, a now almost useless weapon, give them 1 more equipment slot.
Assault Gal:I think the drop suit is balanced.With the speed increase they would do great.

I am not trying to 'nerf' the logi but encourage more of a support and assist role, not combat kings.

I am very open to the idea of giving them dual wield with the side arms. (provided they're one hand operational)

It will be a mix that supposed to help theme what what those size of suits are about. Military grade suits will outstrip the militia's in terms of equipment they can bring out but the performance of the militia wont be too terribly so far behind.

Concerning the MLT bonuses, allow me to refrain my earlier point.

You stated:

I can extract two meanings for that:

1. Generic bonuses that teaches how to fit that size/race before taking the later specilization into consideration.
2. Specific bonuses to certain modules that are supposed to show what that size is supposed to do later on.

The former could be composed in such a way that taking advantage of all of them is encouraged and intended to teach competent fitting.

The latter would need carefull balance as to not encourage hybrid builds that may stop beeing viable once we reach Military grade suits.

Of course this can very well be intended as a first lesson of specilization. I'm interested what you think about that.

Edit: Note to cosgar. Imagine what a potent range bonus would do to the flaylock.

Mass Driver = Support
Logistics = Support

I don't know what else I can say on the topic. Wait until other dedicated logibros find out about this. Check my character sheet. I have a ~0.95 KDR, I'm not a slayer, I'm support. When I'm not repping, reviving, and resupplying, I'm giving covering fire with grenade rounds to pin down enemies so the slayers in my squad can flank. They've already taken that away from me with the ninja MD nerf and I'm trying to find more creative and strategic ways to use it. Everyone has their last straw and this is mine. Take away my mass driver and I quit.

Besides, have you seen how good some of the sidearms now. You think limiting logis is going to stop these new killer bees? Give them a few weeks and we'll be right here again talking about this, and I'll say "I told you so." Go ahead and give them dual wield and extra sidearm range, that'll get us here faster.

Flaylock = Side Arm Mass Driver, and based on Fan fest was superior in damage and damage application in exception to range.