I got confused with the "Remove Base, Advanced, and Prototype Frames" part. Can you use an example, like Amarr medium frames and its specialization, which tiers will be available in the basic frames, and which tiers will be available in the specializations?

A major discrepancy right now is that in almost every situation the Proto Basic frame outperforms any T2 variant except for the Proto T2.

That is, a Caldari Assault C/1 is outperformed by a Proto Caldari Medium Frame. You see 0 benefit for speccing into T2 suits until you have spent 3mil SP. There is no progression. It is Proto or nothing on the T2 end.

This could be alleviated by changing the specialized requirements from linear to a tandem approach

For Assault this means:

Assault I needs Medium I
Assault II needs Medium II
Assault n needs Medium n

This would allow to preserve the STD=>ADV=>PRO situation and allow players to decide between faster specialization and overall performance. It also allows for more gradual progress than the current system.

So the specializations will only have 1 tier available equivalent to prototype.
Will the basic frame version also be prototype equivalent?
What will the militia be equivalent to?
(I reorganized your progression example to better understand)

Do you imagine those bonuses to reflect the possible specilizations or rather to point to the basic suits?

If it's the former i can see how people will fit all "bonused" modules and mask the "gimped" nature such a suit would have otherwise, if fitting attributes allow for it.

Don't take away the Logi Sidearm. I know there are a lot of Caldari logis running around like Assault+1 but don't punish the whole suit class. Logistics + Mass Drivers is like peanut butter and jelly. (Nerfed jelly)

Mass Driver = Support
Logistics = Support

I don't know what else I can say on the topic. Wait until other dedicated logibros find out about this. Check my character sheet. I have a ~0.95 KDR, I'm not a slayer, I'm support. When I'm not repping, reviving, and resupplying, I'm giving covering fire with grenade rounds to pin down enemies so the slayers in my squad can flank. They've already taken that away from me with the ninja MD nerf and I'm trying to find more creative and strategic ways to use it. Everyone has their last straw and this is mine. Take away my mass driver and I quit.

Besides, have you seen how good some of the sidearms now. You think limiting logis is going to stop these new killer bees? Give them a few weeks and we'll be right here again talking about this, and I'll say "I told you so." Go ahead and give them dual wield and extra sidearm range, that'll get us here faster.

So basically you're saying that skilling into a dropsuit would simply allow you to fit better level modules? You keep the STD, ADV and PRO determined by the modules equipped instead? I REALLY like this idea.

With this idea, how would ISK prices work? Because right now there is quite a difference between the price of a standard and prototype suit.

Also most this stuff sounds wonderful, especially how each Tech 2 suit would get a different slot configuration than the tech 1s, which is a big problem right now. What time frame are we talking though for when such a thing could be implemented?

If they changed the slots to sidearm I would expect another respec because I know my fellow Caldari Logistics people would hate to be stuck with a sidearm. Personally I haven't even gotten to play yet because update 3.04 keeps getting 80710723 error before finishing then making me start from the beginning.

After a bit of thought, I'm good with the skill change and advanced/proto removal (only for suits though, it MUST stay for gear). The skill system you propose would make having multiple suits of each class workable like EVE ships, and increases the value of the skills, which are kind of underwhelming as it.
Current advanced and proto could maybe come back with the player market in the form of faction army and pirate gear from limited rewards. Nubs earn it, sell it to vets for a windfall, and we use it for those special occasions for that edge.

I really need to recommend you stop defending the idea of sidearm only logi, Wolf. It isn't a good one, let it die man. A reason isn't needed as an excuse, just advocate straight up for more variety of sidearms (and heavy weapons), but don't just give something up as a pressure to get them.

If you're really hung up on a sidearm logi with appropriate bonuses, push for it to be a Type-II, or Type-III even, and let the meta decide what's more awesome.

Yes, I am wondering if this is something he is actually trying to get CCP to do or if this is just an idea he is kicking around. If it is something he is trying to push, how much does he actually think they would change to their core system?

at what point did we get tech 2 suits or modules? all i see on market are tech 1 variants, std,adv and proto ,just like in eve. surely if we had tech 2 it would say that on the mod,weapon,suits.and if what we have now is supposedly t2 then this game is dumbing down far to much .maybe its just my perspective, but i want a game that will allow my char to grow, i would like to spend time getting into a real t2 suit , with maybe t2 resists and t2 bonuses. what we have now is just t1 stuff with added sp sinks to try and slow players progression. the proto basic frames are like buying a cruiser without any bonuses and the specialized suits are no different to standard t1 ships . t2 would be what we have now but with another set of bonuses . imagine a t2 heavy with bonuses to maybe tanking Hav damage long enough to stand toe to toe for a Short time and not being one shotted ,maybe a logi suit that actually improved remote rep rates or a revive% increase .of course non of this can happen if the game is simplified any more.

I've been thinking more about how Aurum suits would fit in to a Dust where there's only a single tier of suits, and using my previous post's example figures I've come up with a rough idea:



In the above example the Aurum suit is better than the normal suit until Minmatar Medium Frame V is trained where upon both suits function exactly the same. It gives people an incentive to buy Aurum suits while not giving them an advantage over people who have specialised in to the same role, the same situation as now.



Again, the Aurum suit is better than the normal suit until Minmatar Assault Frame V is trained where upon they both function exactly the same.

Also in your first post you mention resist bonuses, I would shy away from suggesting these to CCP, except on maybe the Sentinel, as they offer very little over an HP increase on medium and light dropsuits and would just confuse people.

Resist bonuses do three things:
- Increase HP
- Improve your local active tank
- Improve the effectiveness of remote reps being use on you

In dropsuit frontline combat local reppers and remote reppers make very little impact, except in a Heavy-Logi pairing, so for medium and light frames I'd like CCP to balance their tank through HP adjustments only.

What you overlooked is
1: akimbo flalocks will make all logos op

2: you fail to address the real problem that caldary logis have 90 billion high slots you don't solve that by giving it akimbo flalocks you solve that by taking away some of the high slots

3: since all sidearms are close range and even though the logi is a support suit it has to be a versitile combat unit I'm not saying it's ok to have the op caldari logi but the have to be able to be versitile in order to heal and revive his teammates in a mid-range combat situations without being a living target what I'm saying is the logi needs a light weapon otherwise it wont be able to support in mid-range combat without getting killed

4: As a logibro I can't stress this enough THE CALDARI LOGI IS EFFING OP however I run a gallante logi with enhanced armour plates and I only have about 25 more armour than a gallante unmodded gallante assault is that op? No it isn't neather is the minmatar or ammar logi so why bother them.

5: why yet rid of an equipment slot when you can put remote explosives there to increase combat effectiveness or use that spare slot for nanohives to make sure your teammates never run out of ammo or even use that spare slot for an active scanner to mark targets for your teammates.

After reading this you will hopefully understand why your suggestion is terrible and unbeleavably flawed

By the way (and this part will blow your mind) I'm 12

I really didn't think there was anything wrong with the current suit layout to be honest...... Whats a bigger problem in my opinion is the racial suit SP requirement. It takes 1.8 million SP to get the proto basic suit for a race, but it takes an additional 3 million just to get the same suit with a small specialized bonus. That's a bit much I think..... and in addition to that I think they could work on the market UI for suits, between AUR gear, and other gear, it all comes out to one big confusing list.

The CPU/PG bonus is reliant on the Medium Frame skill, not the specialized Assault suit skill. With the Assault suits you get two sets of bonuses (like in EVE), one reliant on the basic Medium Frame skill and one reliant on the Assault suit skill. To use Assault suits you must already have the prerequisite Medium Frame skill at V so you would get the full bonus to PG/CPU straight away in my examples.

It is a bit confusingly worded but that's the way it's done in EVE with tech II ships so that's why I wrote it that way. Perhaps the prerequisite skills should just be role bonuses in the description (or built in to the suit in regards to the PG/CPU bonus) as that would be far easier to understand.

+1

To Iron wolf,

Hell No, dude I can tell you never served in the military. Simply because, in the real army where big boys and girls shoot real weapons at each other. The Logibro/Medic is going to carry a sidearm and a combat rifle/shotgun.


Please, stop with these silly ideas, CCP has more than enough on their plates now. Also, since when did the CPM get the power to affect/change game balance. I thought you guys were just implementing the voting system.

No wonder, sorry bro stay on your boat. Because, you no nothing of Land Operations. But, back to my other question. Why are you doing/discussing game balance, this was not in the job description?

All I ask is that logi's keep their rep bonus. No one else is around to do it. Other than that great post, I like the simpler system, but there should be more varients at the the Tech 2 level.

With medium frames having at least 2 E slots will they be able to out logi the logi, as the current game allows for the Sad and Lowly Amarr logi vs.... anyone else.

The core concept of this idea is fabulous and I love it. My one question, however, is why does the Pilot suit lose HP when the Scout suit retains it? From my perspective I wouldn't view the "Scout" as the "Combat role" of "T2" light suits. (wow, that was a lot of quotation marks)

I would think the scout should specialize even more on stealth, sensor, etc. (and therefore lose HP) especially so if the Pilot suit is losing sensor abilities. It could be said that the Pilot suit wouldn't/shouldn't need the HP because it gets bonuses to vehicles, but I personally feel the loss of the light weapon slot is more than enough justification for it.

Considering we won't have a weapon to swap to when we have to reload, and that most of our combat bonuses will be going to the vehicles, making the pilot frame even less "useful" outside of a vehicle is a bit risky when you'll be inclined to use really expensive equipment on it.

My opinion would be to allow it to be equal to the "T1" in HP and keep everything else the same (Reduce the sensors, stealth capabilities, remove the light weapon, etc). But I only have a minor issue with it and if CCP were to implement everything mostly exactly how you put it I would be A-OK.