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UPRISING: Specializations are redundant - make them differ more from basic frames

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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 3715	Posted - 2013.05.07 00:08:00 - [1] - Quote The logistics dropsuit is the only example of specialization done right as of now, the logistics is very different from the basic mediums; giving up one thing to be very good at (or "specialize") something else. There are other examples of true specialized suits coming that CCP has mentioned: The "commando" heavy specialization that sacrifices HP and and the heavy weapon slot in exchange for 2 light weapons. The crusader suits that do AoE support buffs, the pilot suits that enhance vehicle effectiveness, and the multiple grenade slot suits they mentioned are also examples of real specializations. The majority of what we have right now however are not real specializations, but mild tweaks. From medium to assault, from light to scout, and from heavy to sentinel there is barely any change. This makes the massive SP investment needed to unlock the specialized suits pretty pointless. Why specialize into scout if you already have basic light? Why specialize into assault when you have a basic medium? Sure there are the racial bonuses, but that hardly justifies the amount of SP spent which could have been better spent making one's character more versatile. With exception to the logistics, remove all the so-called "specializations" like assaults and scouts (possibly make the basic adopt their stats), and add ral specializations in their place that actually branch off into diverse roles supporting different playstyles, and not just some mildly tweaked copy/pasted basic's stats. The light branches into scout, and probably the upcoming pilot suits. The scout should be replaced with a two different suits that each specialize into different aspects of the light frame's strengths; one can be a suit designed for extreme speed, while the other can be a relatively slow suit (for a light) that specializes in scanning detect of enemies. Medium branches off into logistics and assault, but since the assault is a redundancy of the medium, I propose the assault should be replaced by the grenadier: Grenadier should only have a sidearm and have multiple grenade slots as weapons. The heavy branches out into the sentinel and the upcoming commando, but since sentinel is redundant, it can be replaced into 2 different specializations that each exemplify the tanking and damage dealing strengths of the heavy; one would be a super armored heavy with very low mobility like a true walking tank, while the other should be a much less armored than the basic heavy and have lots of high slots for damage mods. These are just examples of how I would redo the specializations, the specifics don't really matter. What matters is that there needs to be meaningful differences from the basic and the specializations to make the specializations worth skilling into.
calisk galern BurgezzE.T.F Orion Empire 106	Posted - 2013.05.07 00:10:00 - [2] - Quote yes please, the "specialized frames" really don't feel worth the massive cost. they just lack...these faction suits should be onto dropsuits as the charged rifle is to sniper rifles. exotic and specialized, you should use them because they are interesting and different, not because "they have a 10% bonus to a meaningless stat", doesn't that seem like a weak implementation. I mean I'm a completionist I'd of gotten it if it was just the suit, but really it does feel like a missed chance.
Tidaen Nova Corps Marines Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 61	Posted - 2013.05.07 02:41:00 - [3] - Quote Absolutely agree with the OP. I sort of feel that the addition of the active scanner has given the role of 'scouting' over to the logi. Although I suppose a scout could do this task as well. I would love to see some clearly defined roles that each class is uniquely capable of fulfilling in a way that other classes cannot. At the moment, the medium frame is the go-to suit for general effectiveness at most things. I don't feel that the medium suits are all that overpowered, but there is very little content or mechanics that requires specialization to fill a need other than killing or healing support.
Sylvana Nightwind Expert Intervention Caldari State 379	Posted - 2013.05.07 03:12:00 - [4] - Quote They do feel good. You just need to get your sp and invest into it.
Django Quik R.I.f.t Orion Empire 415	Posted - 2013.05.07 07:23:00 - [5] - Quote This is the best post that's been made so far on the suit specialisation aspect. The current scout/assault/sentinel suits are not specialised at all - the skill is. We don't want/need a 10x skill to gain a small passive buff. We might actually use these suits if they were in any meaningful way different to the basic frames.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 3732	Posted - 2013.05.07 21:12:00 - [6] - Quote Any more thoughts on this?
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 3741	Posted - 2013.05.08 05:20:00 - [7] - Quote Great idea DUST Fiend wrote: All specialist suits should have "class specific" modules, to better flesh out their roles. Or at least receive large reductions to fitting requirements for said items, allowing other classes to use them if they want a gimpish fit, but added versatility. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=765881#post765881
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 538	Posted - 2013.05.08 05:43:00 - [8] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Great idea DUST Fiend wrote: All specialist suits should have "class specific" modules, to better flesh out their roles. Or at least receive large reductions to fitting requirements for said items, allowing other classes to use them if they want a gimpish fit, but added versatility. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=765881#post765881 That's kind of what I was hoping for eventually. Like faction ships in EVE having different slots and bonuses, the faction or racial classes could have a sub class ability. For example: (not etched in stone, but an idea) Minmatar Grenadier 5/1/0/1/3/3 +5% Damage for projectile and explosive damage per basic suit level level +3% Reload speed for projectile weapons per logistic dropsuit level +5% Projectile weapon ammo capacity per faction suit level. Faction Suit Bonus: +1 Medium slot capacity
Talos Alomar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 725	Posted - 2013.05.08 05:51:00 - [9] - Quote The Amarr Assault spec makes a world of difference running the LR so that seems worth it for the SP, at least to me.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 3744	Posted - 2013.05.08 06:06:00 - [10] - Quote Added this to the OP: "For logi players, it would be good to have the basic medium frame have 2 equipment slots to allow it to be used as a decent logi substitute; right now the basic medium frame only works as an assault substitute. This change would require that all specialized logi suits have at least 3 equipment slots to differentiate themselves from the mediums" It is only fair. Logis and assaults share the same basic frame, yet only one of them can fulfill their role with the basic frame.

Django Quik R.I.f.t Orion Empire 431	Posted - 2013.05.08 07:20:00 - [11] - Quote I don't think medium frames should have more than 1 equipment slot; that would just result in everyone being able to carry injectors and nanohives and logis would once again become pretty redundant. However, if the pre-reqs were changed so that you could specialise from lvl 1 of the frame size (and the specialised suits were actually different to the basic frame), that would allow people to play their chosen role from the get go without spending 3 million SP just to start specialising. Then, if the assault suit was far more combat oriented and basic more jack of all trades, I wouldn't be against the basic having 2 equipment slots. All 3 suit types would have their place.
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 542	Posted - 2013.05.08 07:23:00 - [12] - Quote Django Quik wrote: I don't think medium frames should have more than 1 equipment slot; that would just result in everyone being able to carry injectors and nanohives and logis would once again become pretty redundant. However, if the pre-reqs were changed so that you could specialise from lvl 1 of the frame size (and the specialised suits were actually different to the basic frame), that would allow people to play their chosen role from the get go without spending 3 million SP just to start specialising. Then, if the assault suit was far more combat oriented and basic more jack of all trades, I wouldn't be against the basic having 2 equipment slots. All 3 suit types would have their place. It'd be the same as the militia logi: 2 equipment slots and no sidearm.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 96	Posted - 2013.05.08 07:28:00 - [13] - Quote I like that logi specialization matters now. If you're carrying multiple pieces of equipment, odds are you're earned that. That's neat. I agree that the other specs need to be more special. I like the idea for the scouts (EWAR and speed). I'm not sure about the grenadier-model suits though - because even a single-grenade slot character can already spam grenades around supply depots afterall (basically, I'm not sure it would be as advantageous as it may seem). I could see a HP boost. Std Assault has basic frame hp, Adv is a bit higher, proto higher than that. Have type 2 frames (options like the faster suit with fewer slots, etc. from before) be locked into specialization tracks. The versatility of multiple models would be another incentive to specialize into assault, etc. Whatever, you know? The specializations do need to be set apart from the basic frames. The logis have become interesting. Don't let everything else be boring.
Llan Heindell One-Armed Bandits Atrocitas 54	Posted - 2013.05.08 08:48:00 - [14] - Quote Llan Heindell wrote: To be honest the only thing I felt a little bit stupid, aside from the damn memory leak this ******* game has and it's not fixed yet... Is that Logi suits are better then Assault suits in many cases. They really need to nerf the number of high/low slots those suits get. for instance: Caldari Logi at proto tier would get 4 high, 2 low. While the Caldari Assault would get 5 high and 3 low. Gallente Logi would get 2 high and 4 low. Gallente Assault would get 3 high and 5 low. Amarr Logi would have 3 and 3 as it is now. Amarr Assault would have 4 and 4. Minmatar Logis would have 2 high and 2 low. (But they are faster i and have more Infantry slots). Minmatar Assault would have 3 and 3. (Faster / Can have 2 infantry slots) This way, assault suits would have a reason to exist. Llan Heindell. ^ Just posted about this in another thread. I agree with OP. It's a fact. Llan Heindell.
Jakob Evhin Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 16	Posted - 2013.05.08 12:10:00 - [15] - Quote I seem to have missed this among the mess that is the feedback forum. I posted some thoughts on specializations in a thread here, that while not necessarily the best ideas, would be something I'd like to see. Those are just general thoughts on making logis special, but I think specialization skill trees can and should be applied to each class/role that provides incentive to actual use those suits as they were probably intended, instead of everyone running logi because of shield bonuses and increased slots.
shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon 62	Posted - 2013.05.08 12:18:00 - [16] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: [ EDIT2: For logi players, it would be good to have the basic medium frame have 2 equipment slots to allow it to be used as a decent logi substitute; right now the basic medium frame only works as an assault substitute. This change would require that all specialized logi suits have at least 3 equipment slots to differentiate themselves from the mediums i will fight for it till i'm dead, and then...... respawn
Delirium Inferno Edoras Corporation 149	Posted - 2013.05.08 12:19:00 - [17] - Quote No specialization should have the same fittings as the basic line. It sucks that 3 out of our 4 specializations are in this boat.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 3756	Posted - 2013.05.09 02:11:00 - [18] - Quote Delirium Inferno wrote: No specialization should have the same fittings as the basic line. It sucks that 3 out of our 4 specializations are in this boat. Agreed
Stands Alone Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 7	Posted - 2013.05.09 03:16:00 - [19] - Quote i dont understand why they made standard and advanced specialized suits. it doesnt make sense why you would use an advanced specialized suit to grind for a proto when you already can use a proto suit that is already pretty damn decent if not better
Patoman Radiant ZionTCD Unclaimed. 93	Posted - 2013.05.09 03:57:00 - [20] - Quote He does make a point that for everything but logi's most of the stats, slots stay the same. The big difference is with specializations you get actual bonuses per level. Maybe that is what ccp wants, no idea.

Davy Headhunter ZionTCD Unclaimed. 1	Posted - 2013.05.09 15:33:00 - [21] - Quote I also think that the Assault version of suits should receive double damage bonus like (damage and rate of fire), or damage and fitting aid (cpu/pg). Right now forcing a galente and amarr Assault suit be shield tanked is just stupid. If you wanna give a tank bonus to assault suits at least go for racial bonus, like armor or shield, and not all shield. However, the damage bonus feels more eve-like, forcing the player to match the suit with a type of weapon.
Telcontar Dunedain Imperfects Negative-Feedback 382	Posted - 2013.05.09 16:45:00 - [22] - Quote This is a good OP on the issue. What is misses however is the completely inappropriate amount of tank on logi suits (this was also a big problem in the last build). Very skilled assault players are going logi not because of slots but because of such beastly tanks on a SUPPORT frame.
ZiwZih The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 127	Posted - 2013.05.09 16:51:00 - [23] - Quote Telcontar Dunedain wrote: This is a good OP on the issue. What is misses however is the completely inappropriate amount of tank on logi suits (this was also a big problem in the last build). Very skilled assault players are going logi not because of slots but because of such beastly tanks on a SUPPORT frame. Good point. Or if they want to keep them being cockroaches as they were/are, at least reduce their ability to deal damage as Assaults.
SHANN da MAN D3LTA FORC3 Orion Empire 10	Posted - 2013.05.09 17:31:00 - [24] - Quote Suggested Fix: Dropsuit Command - Change this from a 1x skill to a 2x skill unlocks medium suits at level 1 change unlocks light suits from level 2 to level 3 change unlocks heavy suits from level 3 to level 5 {Race} light/medium/heavy Dropsuits - Change this from a 6x skill to a 5x skill add Racial Bonus GÇô gives xxx per level unlocks basic standard dropsuit at level 3 {Race} Assault Dropsuits - Assault Suit bonus GÇô unchanged from current {Race} Assault Bonus GÇô unchanged from current unlocks Specialist Standard suit at level 1 unlocks Basic Advanced at level 2 unlocks Specialist advanced at level 3 unlocks Basic Prototype at level 4 unlocks Specialist Prototype at level 5 The Logi specialist tree should not unlock the higher tier basic suits as they are assault type suits The light and heavy trees should be changed in the same way as the assault tree
Iskandar Zul Karnain Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 378	Posted - 2013.05.09 17:43:00 - [25] - Quote I agree 100%. Roles, and their respective suits, have been flattened too much. It doesn't seem worth the immediate investment to unlock racial variant suits as the basic tier does their job well enough. Now, before CCP goes and gimps the basic suits, take some time to reevaluate the role bonuses and possibility of racial variant modules (which is an awesome idea provided they don't cost another 4 mil SP).
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy 928	Posted - 2013.05.09 18:00:00 - [26] - Quote I fully support diversity and the core of this idea. I would note however that it's very important to maintain the diversity among the racial variants. Having more than one specialization for Assault from Cal Med frame would be cool of course but only if the specifications are unique within the races as well. For example using your OP as a template the scout should branch off into 4 specializations, one for each race (or if two within each race then eight total). Maintaining the unique flavors of the four races gives a lot to the game. I also think there should still be "scout+", "assault+" etc as there is currently because those are battlefield roles as well. In essence I'm saying "+1 OP" but add these ideas as new content rather than replace the current system as there are important aspects of diversity already present. 0.02 ISK Cross ps ~ this is spot on about the logi, you essentially have to be into at least level 1 race proto (or the MAG suit) to run a logi suit right now which isn't scaled the same as other battlefield roles at present.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy 928	Posted - 2013.05.09 18:08:00 - [27] - Quote Telcontar Dunedain wrote: This is a good OP on the issue. What is misses however is the completely inappropriate amount of tank on logi suits (this was also a big problem in the last build). Very skilled assault players are going logi not because of slots but because of such beastly tanks on a SUPPORT frame. This above assessment is incomplete. When playing support there are frequent situations of taking dps without returning fire/taking cover comes with the job. An assault player taking fire can duck behind cover and still be playing his role, a support player who bails out while his squad made is under fire, pinned down, or needing a revive/rep is not doing his job. Furthermore while doing this job and taking this fire a support player cannot be returning fire and thus is unable to eliminate/suppress incoming dps the way an assault player can. Support frames most definitely should have more tank than aggressive frames (heavy not withstanding). The problem is better solved by giving the assault player proper incentives to use the assault suits not nerfing the support frames to make them even less able to stay in the fight and fulfill their battlefield roles.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 761	Posted - 2013.05.09 18:16:00 - [28] - Quote I've spoken about this in quite a bit of detail in the past, with quite a bit of community support. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=68555 I think the overall tanking bouses are misplaced, and the weapon bonuses are a joke, so both need to be overhauled. I go into a bit more detail in the actual thread, but here are my suggestions: ASSAULT SUITS: Amarr -Increased Armor Plate Efficacy / Lvl Assault Suits -Increased Cooldown Rate of Laser Weapons / Lvl Amarr Assault Caldari -Increased Shield Extender Efficacy / Lvl Assault Suits -Increased Effective Range of Hybrid Weapons / Lvl Caldari Assault Gallente -Increased Armor Repair module Efficacy / Lvl Assault Suits -Increased Damage of Hybrid Weapons / Lvl Gallente Assault Minmatar -Increased Shield Recharge Rate / Lvl Assault Suits -Increased Stamina and Recovery / Lvl Minmatar Assault LOGISTICS: Amarr -Increased Armor Repair module Efficacy / Lvl Logistics Suits -Increased Armor-on-Revive for Injectors / Lvl of Amarr Logistics Caldari -Increased Shield Extender Efficacy / Lvl Logistics Suits -Increased Nanite Cluster Capacity for Nanohives / Lvl of Caldari Logistics Gallente -Decreased CPU/PG cost of Equipment / Lvl Logistics Suits -Decreased Spawn time for Drop Uplinks / Lvl Gallente Logistics Minmatar -Increased hacking speed / Lvl Logistics Suits -Increased repair rate of repair tools / Lvl Minmatar Logistics SCOUT: Gallente -Decreased Scan Profile / Lvl Scout Suits -Increased Scan Radius / Lvl Gallente Scouts Minmatar -Increased Sprint Speed / Lvl Scout Suits -Increased Melee and Nova Knife damage / Lvl Minmatar Scouts SENTINEL: Amarr -Increased Heavy Weapon Reload Speed / Lvl Sential Suits -Increased Efficacy of Armor Plates / Lvl Amarr Sentinels
Henry DeMartos Isuuaya Tactical Caldari State 0	Posted - 2013.05.10 11:41:00 - [29] - Quote I actually want more specializations. As a crappy sniper, I would very much appreciate a suit that support this role. At the moment, scout suits are - to me - nothing but a piece of paper armor. We need scout suits that specialize as Spotter, Sniper. What we currently have or will have is the Pilot suit, which is rather nice as it would really help to have someone who knows how to drive... About the Spotter, what everyone in the game really want is someone who could tell teammates where to move to stop flanking actions, where need support and where to assault. About the Sniper, I think the sooner the Optical Cloak can be introduce, the better as it would completely changes the game. May be it could replace shields on a Sniper suit or something. As a sniper, the amount of times I get killed because of counter-snipes is ridiculously little. It's mostly a rampaging Heavy or a Assault with a Shotgun/Laser Rifle that gets to me. I don't mind being poorly protected, I just want a way to survive despite this fact. Scout are meant to be either at the very back or the very front of the field. Right now, the back looks awfully inviting. The front and the middle grounds are a bloody slaughterhouse for Scouts.
Ecshon Autorez Nova Tech Marines Hephaestus Forge Alliance 14	Posted - 2013.05.10 19:05:00 - [30] - Quote I posted some suggestions about changes to the suit bonuses here. Feel free to think up your own and post them, as well as give feedback on others ideas. The more we post, the larger the pool of ideas the Devs can draw from if they decide to change them.



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