DUST Search - UPRISING: Specializations are redundant - make them differ more from basic frames

Ecshon Autorez wrote:

Dehlia Metii wrote:

It would probably depend on how the specialization suits are balanced. If you give Assault Suits better HP than Basic Frames, that magnifies any shielding effect you give their passive, right? If the shields are balanced on a delay system (there's both "completely" depleted, and just depleted regen delays), a passive shield regen per/sec would seem to screw with that and always give them the best of the two numbers. Assaults already have much higher shield regen compared to say, logis or heavies. The delays aren't necessarily different either (in the cases where it is, it's usually the fully depleted, which you'd be eliminating with a passive).

As a bonus, it basically ignored the difference between shield and armor mechanics - the old Assault Passive was already geared towards boosting their shield regen.

You didn't read the rest of the list did you? Lol

I had an offensive one in there too you know.

Those weren't all meant to be implemented, I was giving the Devs things to choose from. Only one for each dropsuit class would be implemented.

An easy workaround would be if it DOES reach 0 then it will continue to regenerate at the rate of the passive, but will not recieve the increased shield recharge of the ACTUAL recharge till the timer is up. (always recieving health from passive. doesn't reach 0, passive + recharge delay. does reach 0, passive + shield depleted recharge delay.)

As for differences in shield recharge rate:

Assault: 25
Logi:20


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Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 96	Posted - 2013.05.08 07:28:00 - [1] - Quote I like that logi specialization matters now. If you're carrying multiple pieces of equipment, odds are you're earned that. That's neat. I agree that the other specs need to be more special. I like the idea for the scouts (EWAR and speed). I'm not sure about the grenadier-model suits though - because even a single-grenade slot character can already spam grenades around supply depots afterall (basically, I'm not sure it would be as advantageous as it may seem). I could see a HP boost. Std Assault has basic frame hp, Adv is a bit higher, proto higher than that. Have type 2 frames (options like the faster suit with fewer slots, etc. from before) be locked into specialization tracks. The versatility of multiple models would be another incentive to specialize into assault, etc. Whatever, you know? The specializations do need to be set apart from the basic frames. The logis have become interesting. Don't let everything else be boring.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 344	Posted - 2013.05.23 08:47:00 - [2] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Telcontar Dunedain wrote: This is a good OP on the issue. What is misses however is the completely inappropriate amount of tank on logi suits (this was also a big problem in the last build). Very skilled assault players are going logi not because of slots but because of such beastly tanks on a SUPPORT frame. This above assessment is incomplete. When playing support there are frequent situations of taking dps without returning fire/taking cover comes with the job. An assault player taking fire can duck behind cover and still be playing his role, a support player who bails out while his squad made is under fire, pinned down, or needing a revive/rep is not doing his job. Furthermore while doing this job and taking this fire a support player cannot be returning fire and thus is unable to eliminate/suppress incoming dps the way an assault player can. Support frames most definitely should have more tank than aggressive frames (heavy not withstanding). The problem is better solved by giving the assault player proper incentives to use the assault suits (for example better fittings costs for weapons, or an extra slot that can only fit damage mods etc) not nerfing the support frames to make them even less able to stay in the fight and fulfill their battlefield roles. EDIT: As an aside "very skilled players" is specifically not the demographic that should be balanced around, doing so will wreak the game for everyone who falls outside of that select few. Balancing needs to be addressed game wide at the macro level not catered to a minority. This is probably my favorite post for explaining the need for a tanky logi. I'd still like to see the "specialized" frames differentiated more.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 352	Posted - 2013.05.24 07:41:00 - [3] - Quote Aerion Spiritus wrote: Scout suits aren't redundant in my belief at the moment as their Profile Dampening skill bonus is worth it. Trust me.... I'm a scout. The suits ARE redundant in that their slot layouts and stats are exactly the same. The fact your passive is useful is a separate balancing matter. Some specializations have passives that seem objectively worthless (like the Sentinel with Feedback damage). Balancing those skills to make the specs appealing is one balance issue. Differentiating from the basic frame is just the idea that the specialization frames should ALL be different from the basic frames like the Logi frame is. For an assault, that might mean more hp on a frame, losing an equip slot for another grenade slot, and/or whatever. It's saying "my specialization is more than my frame-size and a passive".
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 357	Posted - 2013.05.24 22:36:00 - [4] - Quote Making the suits special could involve HP buffs, very minor damage resistance, scan profile changes, speed changes, shield regen changes, slot layout changes (extra grenades, no equipment, unique "assault" or "scout" slots), and more. No reason to have them identical.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 377	Posted - 2013.05.26 06:12:00 - [5] - Quote Yeah, you need to distinguish between suits themselves being redundant and passive skills being desirable. It's a fact that most of the specialization suits are identical in stats to the basic frame. The passive skills obviously differ, it's just a question of them being "good' or not.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 380	Posted - 2013.05.26 16:29:00 - [6] - Quote Ecshon Autorez wrote: Dehlia Metii wrote: It would probably depend on how the specialization suits are balanced. If you give Assault Suits better HP than Basic Frames, that magnifies any shielding effect you give their passive, right? If the shields are balanced on a delay system (there's both "completely" depleted, and just depleted regen delays), a passive shield regen per/sec would seem to screw with that and always give them the best of the two numbers. Assaults already have much higher shield regen compared to say, logis or heavies. The delays aren't necessarily different either (in the cases where it is, it's usually the fully depleted, which you'd be eliminating with a passive). As a bonus, it basically ignored the difference between shield and armor mechanics - the old Assault Passive was already geared towards boosting their shield regen. You didn't read the rest of the list did you? I had an offensive one in there too you know. Those weren't all meant to be implemented, I was giving the Devs things to choose from. Only one for each dropsuit class would be implemented. An easy workaround would be if it DOES reach 0 then it will continue to regenerate at the rate of the passive, but will not recieve the increased shield recharge of the ACTUAL recharge till the timer is up. (always recieving health from passive. doesn't reach 0, passive + recharge delay. does reach 0, passive + shield depleted recharge delay.) As for differences in shield recharge rate: Caldari: Assault: 25 Logi:20 Amarr: Assault:20 Logi:17 Gallente: Assault:20 Logi:15 Minmatar: Assault:18 Logi:20 The shield recharge differences are currently much greater because of the Assault Passive. Mind you, the only reason the Logistics such as the Caldari seems to have an edge is because of its passive at the same time. However, if you take into account both passives at the same time, you need to add 25% to every assault number you have on that list. So, the Cal Assault becomes 31.25 hp/s compared to 20 hp/s (over 50% higher). In the end, that sort of regen is probably more useful than a trickle gain like the armor rep. That aside, the aim assist thing just seems like it'd annoy a lot of players, as CCP is pretty horrible with their aim assist mechanics currently. You'd drive more people away from the class. Giving the highest HP class in the game both damage resistance and higher speed seems incredibly imbalanced. What exactly is the drawback of being a heavy at that point? You can take more damage than anyone else, and charge across the field. Cloaking when immobile would make scouts invincible snipers (as well as be generally overpowered in other circumstances), and again, would be horribly broken.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 382	Posted - 2013.05.26 17:52:00 - [7] - Quote You told me to skip to post #6 where they're described as passive skills. I think the weapon/equipment menu is awkward and buggy enough without trying to add active skills to it anyhow. That's the worst thought out thread on heavies I've ever seen. They're resistant to small arms fire because they have the most hp of any class. Without ANY modules they hit 1000 hp with passives. They're also the only class that can use Heavy weapons - the ONLY one. That's what heavies are about. Making them indestructible juggernauts that require full squads to take down only makes sense if you're going to jack up their suit prices by a factor of 6 and increase the SP required relative to other classes. Otherwise, they don't need anything remotely approaching those sorts of advantages.