To my understanding the AUR reset and the sp reset are mutually exclusive. The wording was upon commercial release aurum would be reimbursed. Commericial release was not contingent on a SP reset, just simply the commercial release plain and simple.

Oh, 'cause it's worth mentioning again, CCP have no legal obligation to do anything - you gave up your consumer rights in this matter by signing the EULA - which means that the wording is irrelevant anyway.

Alright... *cracks knuckles* ...amateur hour is over. Time to get down to brass tacks with this subject (this is truly a snafu of the first magnitude).

Let's do some ethics (hope you packed a lunch):

First, it is necessary for us to CLEARLY define the terminology that was used, and is currently under debate now - in as far as, how it may have -ábeen defined by the consumer, as well as, how CCP may have intended it to be defined, both in light of the actual literal interpretations of said terms.

-áTerms currently under debate:

GÇó Mercenary Pack
GÇó Credited in full
GÇó Character reset
GÇó Commercial release

"...Mercenary Pack will be credited in full to your in-game DUST 514 account after each character reset AND for the commercial release."

(emphasis added)

I am, of course, assuming that the above quote is accurate.

"Mercenary pack" is easy. We all know what it is and what it contains.

"Credited in full", like above, is also VERY clear.

"Character reset", now here is we're we star to run into some problems. What exactly is a character reset (in as far as, both the paying customer and CCP may have defined it).

"Commercial release", and again we run into the same problem as above: what exactly does a "commercial release" Intel?

Let's explore the contested terms.

1. Character reset:

As a consumer, there are two ways to interpret this phrase:

1. Singular: "my character will be reset". This excludes the necessity for the consumer to concern themselves with any other consumer who may have purchased the "Mercenary Pack". In essence, in this interpretation, the consumers purchase occurred in a vacuum.

2. Plural: "all consumers are subject (SUBJECT not entitled) to a reset when it occurs. In this interpretation, the consumer is buying the "Mercenary Pack" with the understanding that the affect, "character reset" insinuates, is as follows: when a character reset occurs, it will affect all consumers.

So, which one is it?

Before we delve any deeper into this, let's take the following scenario under consideration:

During the last character reset (just prior to the open beta launch) if it had been optional, at that time (during that character reset) to opt out of the reset, would this have been desirable to anyone? Speaking from my own perspective, the answer is yes, and I am quite certain that there are many others out there who share sentiment. The reason for this is because I was quite satisfied with what I had, to that point, accomplished with my character. But would this have been fair to the other consumers that were not satisfied? As so many people are so fond of saying, this is a beta, and as such, "a work in progress", an unfinished product subject to change. Now can the consumer be held financial responsible for the purchase of a product that is subject to change? Take the following as an example:

I walk into a grocery store to which it took me two months to drive to (the only grocery store on the planet infact). I take an apple from the shelf, and take it to the teller in order to purchase it. As the teller swipes the apple across the scanner, to ring up the sale, through some act of magic, the apple suddenly turns into an orange. Is it still my responsibility to purchase the orange? The answer is, most emphatically, no.

Now let's say that there are ten people at the teller with me (all purcasing apples) yet mine is the only one that keeps tuning into an orange. Befuddled, I look around in bewilderment and by chance happen to spot a man in a dress shirt and tie waving a wand everytime the teller tries to scan the apple. He is wearing a name tag, it says: "CCP owner/manager". The man notices me noticing him and promptly approaches me, and the following conversation ensues:

CCP: Hello sir. My name is CCP, I'm the owner. What seems to be the problem?

Bob, the unsatisfied customer: Well, quite frankly I'm trying to buy an apply but it keeps turning into an orange.

CCP: Ahh, i see. We have had this problem happen before. I am afraid that you will have to return to you're place of residence, obtaine a notarized afidavid stating that you have returned to your please of residence, and then return to CCP Mart, at which time, we here a CCP Mart guarantee that the issue will be resolved.

Bob, the unsatisfied customer: but it took me two months to drive to CCP Mart, what about the time and effort I spent to get here?

CCP: I am quite sorry sir. That is CCP Mart policy.

I'll leave it up to your imagination to figure out what bobs reaction is at that point.

So, as we should all plainly be able to see, an option to opt out of a reset is not an ethical/fair one, because all of those satisfied with the game get to continue on being satisfied with the game while those who are not satisfied, loose an irreplaceable set of commodities: time and effort.

Ok, that takes care of the first contested term. Let's move on to the next:

2. Commercial release:

Legally speaking, this is VERY specific, as well as, VERY binding and for good reason: because it removes consumer responsibility to act responsibly with their purchases until CCP makes the consumer aware that the property has been "commercially released"

Regardless of what CCP had intended to mean by "commercial release" is irrelevant. The fact is that the two terms "commercial release" and reset are not connected in any way, no matter how much CCP or any one else, for that mater, wants them to be. By this term, CCP is legally obligated to credit the items in question to any consumer that purchased a Mercenary Pack.

The simple fact is that CCP should never have included "commercial release", in the contract literature, if that is not what the were intending to do. it is miss leading in the extreme, and gives those who were mislead by it a valid argument:

I was not responsible with my money because CCP assured me that I did not have to be until the "commercial release".

There is, legally, only three options that CCP can pursue:

1. Reset all player accounts upon commercial release


This is an option that neither the majority of the player base nor CCP themselves want. I can tell you personall that, if my lifetime skill points is reset to zero again, I will no longer be playing this game, and I am sure that there are many others out there who would feel the same, which is the reason why CCP does not desire this option ether.

2. CCP can offer to reset the accounts of any one who wants a Mercenary Pack credit, however, this is entirely unethical toward those who were genuinely mislead by the language of the purchase contract. If this is the path CCP chooses, I will not choose to have my character reset, but neither will I be leaving the game.

3. CCP can take it on the chin like a real man, cut their losses and give out the credits to every one who bought a Mercinary Pack, as to HONOR the original agreement. I would actually consider it a reward to those who helped CCP develop their game in beta. This seems reasonable, and was, in all honesty, what I interpreted this thing to mean when CCP announced that there will be no further "character resets".

And that's my 20 cents worth. Hope this all in some way helped this debacle to get resolved in a desirable fashion that is agreeable to all parties involved.

Due to an incomprehending fool posting in the last few threads about this topic, this is what the case is.


To get an AUR reset, there needs to be a complete Character reset. Nothing around it, it's not a violation of "consumer rights", it's what was said and has been done for the past year or so.

There needs to be a character reset, because otherwise, you'll have paid once to get 2x the AUR stuff.

Some don't mind a complete reset, others do, and others just want more AUR on the same character, cause they're greedy f***s. (I'm joking lol).



So. I believe that Laurent has posed the best solution. AUR reset to those who ask. But, as stated in CCP's terms and conditions, there is to be a commercial reset as well. So therefore, those who want their AUR reset, must comply with the rest as well.

I'm just playing devils advocate, and trying to insert some lo

The rest is up to you.

So. I believe that Laurent has posed the best solution. AUR reset to those who ask. But, as stated in CCP's terms and conditions, there is to be a commercial reset as well. So therefore, those who want their AUR reset, must comply with the rest as well.

I wrote the following quote for one of the many threads on this topic, and I think that I'm just going to start reposting it in every one of these threads.

Spam much?

Get a blog and link to it or something. Your pointless wall of text in every thread is a clear breach of the forum rules.

Pointless? What is pointless is the continued reputation of this topic on this forum, and people's feeding into it.

Just getting tired of people's bullsh!t.

I am waiting for CCP to just do another wipe to kick all these people wanting double aurum for free cause they can't afford more in the nuts.. This way everybody wins, you get complete wipe for those who started late and the vets get all their Aur back and we can move on without threatning CCP on a daily basis.

Unless your AUR items are defective, there is no reason for a refund. If someone wasted their items, then its their fault; CCP announced that when we moved to Tranquility that it would be the very last reset.
An SP reset should never ever happen again.

I am waiting for CCP to just do another wipe to kick all these people wanting double aurum for free cause they can't afford more in the nuts.. This way everybody wins, you get complete wipe for those who started late and the vets get all their Aur back and we can move on without threatning CCP on a daily basis.

Unless your AUR items are defective, there is no reason for a refund. If someone wasted their items, then its their fault; CCP announced that when we moved to Tranquility that it would be the very last reset.
An SP reset should never ever happen again.

Sorry but I disagree. CCP has already written it down in stone that SP resets are no longer happening.

Did you really think that your opinion was so brilliant as to warrant its own thread?

Even further, think it a good idea to call it "The last Words" as if you have some great authority?

Wow.

I agree that CCP should avoid an SP reset, but considering how they've handled the Merc Pack situation, I wouldn't be surprised if they go back on their word about the SP reset as well. That's precisely the problem here, they're losing credibility by handling OTHER PEOPLE'S MONEY all willy nilly.

Furthermore, they announced that when we moved to Tranquility that it would be the last SP RESET. There was no reason for us to assume that meant they were also changing the terms of the Merc Pack ex post facto. If they were going to be making such a drastic change, you would think it would have been announced as well. Of course they didn't, because obviously people would have been extremely upset. So instead, they simply ignored the problem, and CONTINUE to ignore the problem.

It's absolutely TERRIBLE customer service and it makes me extremely wary of doing business with them in the future.

Due to an incomprehending fool posting in the last few threads about this topic, this is what the case is.


To get an AUR reset, there needs to be a complete Character reset. Nothing around it, it's not a violation of "consumer rights", it's what was said and has been done for the past year or so.

There needs to be a character reset, because otherwise, you'll have paid once to get 2x the AUR stuff.

Some don't mind a complete reset, others do, and others just want more AUR on the same character, cause they're greedy f***s. (I'm joking lol).



So. I believe that Laurent has posed the best solution. AUR reset to those who ask. But, as stated in CCP's terms and conditions, there is to be a commercial reset as well. So therefore, those who want their AUR reset, must comply with the rest as well.

I'm just playing devils advocate, and trying to insert some lo

The rest is up to you.

Unless something catastrophic happens.

It-¦s at the table, they can do it, and i would laugh at the whinners trying t get free aurum.

Technically, they said you'd get your AUR back on a reset. There are no further resets, therefore no AUR back. And we are in commercial release, everyone is free to download the game.

You may have the right to post in my thread once you have more than 1000 likes. And you can check my alts for that. Until then, 0 f**** are given from me about anything you post.

Why do people think there needs to be some kind of SP reset? You credit back the merc packs and that's it, you're done, you did EXACTLY WHAT YOU SAID YOU WERE GOING TO DO WHEN WE BOUGHT THE MERC PACK. How is this even a question at this point? how can people fail to understand the basic english written on the merc pack?

Think it's an unfair advantage for people who paid to support the game?
HEAVEN FORBID DEVELOPERS REWARD PAYING CUSTOMERS FOR INVESTING REAL MONEY INTO A BETA
WE JUST CANT HAVE THAT

You're so entitled it's pathetic. CCP should reset your whole character just for this.

Basically, the same part where it says you'll get the merc pack at commercial release, also says that CCP reserves the right to substitute anything at whim. So they could substitute the whole merc pack for 10 AUR and completely screw you over while going with the terms and conditions.

I don't know why you guys are acting so victimized.

You're so entitled it's pathetic. CCP should reset your whole character just for this.

You're so entitled it's pathetic. CCP should reset your whole character just for this.

the internet forumz are not a proper methodology for any corporation to communicate language like this. To be clear they simply said no more resets we however immediately asked what about merc packs and aurum. They said no more reset. We asked so is this commercial release. They said no. We said but language says we get refunds on commercial release. Now head began to scratch.

This is a case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand does. Keep in mind that the langauge and disclaimers placed on these items on the PSN store which has since been removed and the gamestop ones (which are still there and really the ball is being dropped everyday CCP doesnt get CCP to remove that language. Ive bought a few and could really be a prick about it if I chose to because corporations need to learn how to manage their **** or hire people that do).

http://www.gamestop.com/ps3/dlc/dust-514-gamestop-mercenary-pack/106107

The language in these packs have to be sufficient enough to stand on their own without additional need to dig for additional info. When CCP removed that language from the PSN pack they changed the terms and it then falls on them to make sure that information is disseminated in manner that ensure 100% penetrance or reasonable expecation of. (this could have easily been achieved with an in game and RL email to the game acct CCP has knowledge of them because our accounts are tied to Sony login which is tied to an email address). They failed to do any of these things and chose to either ignore the issue or have delayed so long because Legal and PR couldnt get their duck in a row and likely were afraid to create another Jita riots level incident.

This is what happens when you live in a litigation happy society where people will sue out of spite even when a company tries to be forthcoming and own up to making a mistake. Trust me i know this because American medicine is practiced entirely with that single fact in mind.

But here CCP has failed on multiple levels. Remember when Noc got that threadnaught started about 1-2 weeks ago and we got a dev response that they would look into it and get us back a response after telc or tiel originally submitted the question back on 1/14(4 days into TQ migration) We are still waiting.

There are multiple threads and CCP has failed to sticky and compile an effective FAQ and cut out BS and get to the meat of the matter in any reasonable way. They now find themselves in between a rock and hard place.


LET ME BE CLEAR THIS IS NOT A DEV FAILING. THIS IS PURELY PR and LEGAL. DEV SHOULDNT HAVE TO DEAL WITH THIS BS. BUT GM's should have had this as priority one and been on top of Legal and PR everyday for an answer to this. They didnt and here we are. Or maybe they did and Legal and PR are still clueless on what to do(fire em 3 months and still no answer thats utter fail, get rid of them this is corporate you dont let that stuff slide) If CCP isn't prepared to do that then thats okay no shame in it just as many dusters and EVE capsuleers have learned if you try to grow your organization too big too fast without the proper logistics before you are ready you will fall under the weight of the structure.

But consumers asking to enforce the terms of an agreement that were clearly written is by no means selfish or wrong, its in fact wrong for people to ask anyone to not enforce the rights of a contract which is exactly what people are asking for. Never mind that the gaming and more largely the entertainment industry as a whole use copyrights on their IP to protect ownership in a manner that allows them to "own" the product and simply use licensing law to give out a copy that is subject to change on the owners whim leaves consumers in a very weak position and at the mercy of content makers this change on the terms any changes into the EULA that occurs of it is exaclty the reason why. Consumers only recourse is economy but corporations arent dumb they know that people who want this entertainment will put up with it and will never mass protest to a level that could ever hurt them financially to stop it.

TL;DR what people are willing to put up with in terms of consumer rights and usage has changed over the long term because of these small incremental changes. That how you change the culture so that each successive generation simply accepts it as common place because they dont know how the landscape was prior to those changes they have always been there for thier lifetime. I however have lived a longer than most on this forum id imagine so ive seen the changes

Basically, the same part where it says you'll get the merc pack at commercial release, also says that CCP reserves the right to substitute anything at whim. So they could substitute the whole merc pack for 10 AUR and completely screw you over while going with the terms and conditions.

I don't know why you guys are acting so victimized.

LOL UR SO DUMB KING KOBRAH, YOU THINK UR ENTITL3D TO THINGS WHEN U BUY STUFF! LOL RESET FOR YOU.

FINAL WORD, THREAD OVAH!

What part of this do you not realize.


Do you think it is fair to get 6 boosters, while paying for 3? Think from a business standpoint.

60 Kill switches when you paid for 30?
20 AUR tanks when you paid for 10?


Entitled.

What part of this do you not realize.


Do you think it is fair to get 6 boosters, while paying for 3? Think from a business standpoint.

60 Kill switches when you paid for 30?
20 AUR tanks when you paid for 10?


Entitled.

What part of this do you not realize.


Do you think it is fair to get 6 boosters, while paying for 3? Think from a business standpoint.

60 Kill switches when you paid for 30?
20 AUR tanks when you paid for 10?


Entitled.

Would be interesting to see CCP give players two options:

1. If they want AUR/merc pack refund, they agree to have their characters completely wiped to start from scratch.
2. How it is planned now, no AUR refund and SP gets re-allocated for you to reuse. ISK from skillbooks is refunded.


Would anybody take offer #1? Doubt it, they would only choose that option if everybody else got reset too. But it is exactly what would need to be done to fairly refund their AUR. But no, they want to have their cake and eat it too.

Would be interesting to see CCP give players two options:

1. If they want AUR/merc pack refund, they agree to have their characters completely wiped to start from scratch.
2. How it is planned now, no AUR refund and SP gets re-allocated for you to reuse. ISK from skillbooks is refunded.


Would anybody take offer #1? Doubt it, they would only choose that option if everybody else got reset too. But it is exactly what would need to be done to fairly refund their AUR. But no, they want to have their cake and eat it too.

2. How it is planned now, no AUR refund and SP gets re-allocated for you to reuse. ISK from skillbooks is refunded.

We don't even know what CCP said they had planned... The question was asked a few months back during the last reset. CCP said they would get back to us with an answer... Four months later still no answer on a AUR refund. Basically right now everyone is arguing over speculation and what might just be a waste of breath as CCP might of planned on refunding AUR all along.

What we should be upset about is the fact that four months later CCP is still in the process of "getting back to us" on such an important question. It all boils down to poor communication on CCP's part.

exactly. This keeps being brought up because CCP refuses to comment on it. The lack of communication is what is so troubling and why everyone keeps pushing the issue.

I agree. For all we know, we may have overreacted for nothing.

I don't understand why people want their AUR back.

so:

1. You bought a Merc Pack, if you want everything included in the Merc Pack you bought you have to take a reset.
2. You don't get all of what you paid for, but hey, at least you aren't getting reset.

Yeah, real fair. I don't want my cake and to eat it to. I just want my entire cake, not just the half of it that the forum police have decided I "deserve".

I don't understand why people want their AUR back.

Because that is what we purchased. What's not to understand?

Read this screen: http://www.dust411.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/MercPackTerms.jpg

*IMPORTANT NOTICE: During beta periods, CCP may need to reset characters, skills and other items included in the DUST 514-« Mercenary Pack. DUST 514-« Mercenary Pack will be credited in full to your in-game DUST 514-« account after each character reset and for the commercial release. CCP cannot guarantee all items will be identical and reserves the right to substitute items of similar value. No other form of refund is permitted.


The highlighted wording (with the underlined stuff being the lynch pin) is the issue being debated

Unfortunately, there is an operator there.

And is linked to each character reset.

In other words, my solution still stands as the best solution for CCP.

We want to be reset CCP.

And you used what you purchased.

I'm sure we'll be reset at launch. Now is a pretty random time, don't you think?

The highlighted wording (with the underlined stuff being the lynch pin) is the issue being debated
Unfortunately, there is an operator there.

And is linked to each character reset.

In other words, my solution still stands as the best solution for CCP.

We want to be reset CCP.

Sorry, not buying this whole BOGO 2 for 1 thing. I guarantee you not a single person in this game who bought a merc pack expected to get double the contents. We all assumed that commercial release would come with a character reset, which would refund everything as it had been on all past resets.

Enough already, seriously. Plans change and the contents of your merc pack are permanently part of the game, you nor anybody else deserves a refund unless they reset us again.

CCP Stated in several blue posts that other than something catastrophic happening then we will not have another reset to 0 skills. Reference: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=582877#post582877

The word AND makes it two seperate conditions. If I told you I was going to give you 20 bars of silver and 20 bars of gold I'd image you would be upset if I only gave you 20 bars of silver.

Unfortunately, there is an operator there.

And is linked to each character reset.

In other words, my solution still stands as the best solution for CCP.

We want to be reset CCP.

There was a blue post saying only if it's reached catastrophic levels, but I believe that has been reached. A reset is the only solution.

Refunding AUR is not catasrophic by any stretch of the imagination. At the very worst its a reward for early pre-orders of the game .

CCP Stated in several blue posts that other than something catastrophic happening then we will not have another reset to 0 skills. Reference: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=582877#post582877

I think it's fair to get 6 boosters while paying for 3 when the person I bought them from said it was a 2-for-1 deal.

I think it's fair to ask for a full credit of my Merc Pack's contents on commercial release when I bought a Merc Pack under terms offered by CCP that included a full credit of those contents on commercial release, too.

Source. Once again, thanks to Deluxe Edition for posting the link.

That very clearly says "each character reset AND FOR THE COMMERCIAL RELEASE".

Not "maybe for commercial release if we decide to have a reset then as well".
Not "including commercial release", which would imply that the credit on commercial release is linked to the expectation of a reset.
Not "and for the commercial release, but only if we feel like it".

There isn't much of an argument against this.

What? Are you for real? Did you honestly think that? Ok, lets say that CCP went along with this, and accepted that you were wrong, but gave you a second chance. You'd still need to pay back for all the SP earned from boosters, and all ISK earned using Aurum gear, which f***s things up and ends with a complete character reset. I've read the same description as you have, nowhere does it say "Buy one, get one free".

The simple answer here is that they honor the purchase agreement, the only reason this question keeps being raised is because CCP is strangely quiet on the whole thing.

you already made it clear we get to keep the SP.

Ccp shouldnt refund b cuz its their game and if they dont want to they dont have to, so what if they said they would. Things change not everything in the Terms and conditions has to be done. Things change and so does the Terms and conditions. Just because they didnt contact GameStop it isnt Ccp's fault gamestop didnt read the forums.

Nowhere was that made clear as far as I know, they made it clear you would not get reset to 0. Sp cuts on the other hand are fair game. Not saying that's what will happen, but they could.

Notice that it's only been "us" who have been perpetuating that idea around and not CCP themselves. CCP didn't say anything at all. In fact the only legitimate response we have gained from them during the entire 4 months we have been on open beta since the last official reset was this...

"We will get back to you when we have an answer."

"A Dev Blog will be posted to address this."

"I sent an email to my coworkers to see what they say."

Everything we have talked about has been centered around nothing more than speculation and rumor mongering.

We have been getting a lot of questions about Skill Point resets lately. In order to help everyone find this information, here is CCP's official stance on resetting skill points.

We currently have no plans to reset your characters' skill points to a state where they are equivalent to a newly created character, barring something catastrophic.

@Mithridates VI

Unless CCP posts an official statement on the forums or on a dev blog on how your petition was responded and what was on the petition and its current state, we only have your word. Sorry to come across like an ass here but I don't want people to get all worked up for nothing.

@Sloth9230

I know what you mean. But again, CCP has been quiet and the only source for the whole "SP-cuts" theory has been nothing more than the players. We might be like Mel Gibson in Conspiracy Theory (Google the movie) who thinks everyone is out to get him.

@Mithridates VI

Unless CCP posts an official statement on the forums or on a dev blog on how your petition was responded and what was on the petition and its current state, we only have your word. Sorry to come across like an ass here but I don't want people to get all worked up for nothing.

DUST 514-« GameStop Mercenary Pack will be credited in full to your in-game DUST 514-« account after each character reset and for the commercial release.

Thats not a rumor

http://www.gamestop.com/ps3/dlc/dust-514-gamestop-mercenary-pack/106107#productDetails