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slypie11
Planetary Response Organisation
114
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Posted - 2013.04.07 01:02:00 -
[31] - Quote
Jathniel wrote:Vermaak Doe wrote:Ulysses Knapse wrote:Disposable Meatbag wrote:AR does not need a nerf. It somehow outcompetes every other weapon in multiple ways. Not when that weapon is used in it's niche The full-auto ARs are the black sheep that the power hungry love. MLT Assault Rifle, Assault Rifle, GEK-38 Assault Rifle, and Duvolle Assault Rifle are the OP ones. (The Officer Assault Rifles can stay.) There is literally no other weapon or device in this game as imbalanced as those. People literally tell me, "there is nothing the TAR or Burst can do, that I can't do with the full-auto." and THAT is the problem, and the sign of imbalance. Niches be damned. Shoot, I say just wipe the full-auto variants completely, and make a fully-automatic firing mode for the Burst and Tactical variants, without changing their clip size. Keep kick for the Burst and Tac the same. OR Reduce the rate of fire to 500rpm, increase kick to the same as the Burst, and... reduce max effective range to 65-70m. That would be balanced. Giving tac and burst a full auto mode wouldn't make them burst and tac. Keep the RoF, just increase kick and reduce damage outside of effective range |
Ulysses Knapse
Nuevo Atlas Corporation
200
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Posted - 2013.04.07 01:12:00 -
[32] - Quote
Vermaak Doe wrote:Jathniel wrote:Vermaak Doe wrote:Ulysses Knapse wrote:Disposable Meatbag wrote:AR does not need a nerf. It somehow outcompetes every other weapon in multiple ways. Not when that weapon is used in it's niche The full-auto ARs are the black sheep that the power hungry love. MLT Assault Rifle, Assault Rifle, GEK-38 Assault Rifle, and Duvolle Assault Rifle are the OP ones. (The Officer Assault Rifles can stay.) There is literally no other weapon or device in this game as imbalanced as those. People literally tell me, "there is nothing the TAR or Burst can do, that I can't do with the full-auto." and THAT is the problem, and the sign of imbalance. Niches be damned. Shoot, I say just wipe the full-auto variants completely, and make a fully-automatic firing mode for the Burst and Tactical variants, without changing their clip size. Keep kick for the Burst and Tac the same. OR Reduce the rate of fire to 500rpm, increase kick to the same as the Burst, and... reduce max effective range to 65-70m. That would be balanced. Try giving proof that it's unbalanced I get many kills from a Militia Assault Rifle when I use it with almost no experience and almost no allocated skillpoints. |
Jathniel
G I A N T
150
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Posted - 2013.04.07 01:13:00 -
[33] - Quote
Was going to say cut the RoF to 500rpm (or even 550). Because at the current 700+ the thing shoots faster than the Breach SMG. What good is a Breach SMG if the AR keeps working as it does? (Yet another example of the AR displacing the role of something else.) Then buff the Breach SMG to 700+rpm. (the regular SMG already have 1000rpm) Let the close range weapons have the close range advantage.
But your example with the Militia is good enough. I'll find some threads if the request for "find proof that it's unbalanced" still stands.
The AR was never supposed to have RPM that high to begin with. You want a good close range AR, the Breach AR is nasty, especially with damage mods. Just get rid of the kicking animation, it's not shooting fast enough for all that. |
Vermaak Doe
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
682
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Posted - 2013.04.07 01:35:00 -
[34] - Quote
Vermaak Doe wrote:Jathniel wrote:Vermaak Doe wrote:Ulysses Knapse wrote:Disposable Meatbag wrote:AR does not need a nerf. It somehow outcompetes every other weapon in multiple ways. Not when that weapon is used in it's niche The full-auto ARs are the black sheep that the power hungry love. MLT Assault Rifle, Assault Rifle, GEK-38 Assault Rifle, and Duvolle Assault Rifle are the OP ones. (The Officer Assault Rifles can stay.) There is literally no other weapon or device in this game as imbalanced as those. People literally tell me, "there is nothing the TAR or Burst can do, that I can't do with the full-auto." and THAT is the problem, and the sign of imbalance. Niches be damned. Shoot, I say just wipe the full-auto variants completely, and make a fully-automatic firing mode for the Burst and Tactical variants, without changing their clip size. Keep kick for the Burst and Tac the same. OR Reduce the rate of fire to 500rpm, increase kick to the same as the Burst, and... reduce max effective range to 65-70m. That would be balanced. Try giving proof that it's unbalanced I get many kills from a Militia Assault Rifle when I use it with almost no experience and almost no allocated skillpoints.
I do the same with the militia sniper, scrambler, and shotgun. Your point? |
Vermaak Doe
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
682
|
Posted - 2013.04.07 01:41:00 -
[35] - Quote
Jathniel wrote:Was going to say cut the RoF to 500rpm (or even 550). Because at the current 700+ the thing shoots faster than the Breach SMG. What good is a Breach SMG if the AR keeps working as it does? (Yet another example of the AR displacing the role of something else.) Then buff the Breach SMG to 700+rpm. (the regular SMG already have 1000rpm) Let the close range weapons have the close range advantage. But your example with the Militia is good enough. I'll find some threads if the request for "find proof that it's unbalanced" still stands. The AR was never supposed to have RPM that high to begin with. You want a good close range AR, the Breach AR is nasty, especially with damage mods. Just get rid of the kicking animation, it's not shooting fast enough for all that. In what case should a secondary out do a primary? It's pretty obvious that the sniper out does it as a precision weapon (which is it's role, look at the headshot bonus) and the shotty out does the nova knives as a close range killer. Why shouldn't the Ar follow the same pattern? |
loumanchew
Ametat Security Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2013.04.07 01:50:00 -
[36] - Quote
This being my first FPS I have been following around the top players and looking at how they play to learn and they sure have one or 2 things in common...guess what those are? |
CYRAX SERVIUS
Planetary Response Organisation
48
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Posted - 2013.04.07 02:02:00 -
[37] - Quote
Past, AK 47. Kalasknikov variant. This assault rifle is over 60 years old, here's some facts. Gas activated bolt mechanism for faster reloading and reduced recoil. Chambered in 7.62 mm "a large damage round', capable of 600 rpm, effective range 300 meters set on full auto. 400 meters on semi auto, over 60 year old weapon. Present, M4A1 assault rifle, gas activated rotating bolt, I can tell you from personal military experience it has next to no recoil compared to the AK. Chambered in 5.56 mm, capable of , 'wait for it', 950 rpm, effective range 500 meters full auto, 600 meters semi auto. I have operated both many times and can tell you they are both deadly accurate at their suggested ranges. Considering this game takes place thousands of years in the future, I think ccp has it right, or the AR could use a buff, stop crying. |
Jathniel
G I A N T
150
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Posted - 2013.04.07 02:16:00 -
[38] - Quote
Need proof of imbalance? There's no way you don't know about the whole damage mod debate. How come other weapons are reasonably boosted by the damage mods, but the full-auto ARs (ONLY the full-auto ones), seem to start insta-killing with them? That's not even disputed. Folks already know that auto ARs + damage mods = OP.
For the longest time, they (even AR supporters) blamed the damage mods, on the assumption that the damage mods themselves were stacking damage incorrectly. But many people then tested the numbers, damage mods were and had been stacking damage properly. CCP itself said that the numbers were displaying incorrectly.
The problem doesn't disappear just because the damage mods debate was settled. It doesn't change that Auto ARs + Damage Mods = OP.
So what then? Ignore the problem, because we don't want to fix the auto AR?
"Fix" the not-broken damage mods, and throw the balance of every other weapon in game completely off? Why? Because we don't want to fix the AR?
That is unreasonable bias, and we have got to start talking about new stats for the AR to get it in line with its variants (and nearly every other weapon in the game for that matter).
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Vermaak Doe
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
683
|
Posted - 2013.04.07 02:26:00 -
[39] - Quote
I've stacked enhanced damage mods on a gek and still didn't reach these instakill levels of damage. Besides against scouts (which are paper at every Ar tier) most suits take a decent amount of rounds before dying. However the recoil is too negligible starting at the half wat point of the mag. |
Jathniel
G I A N T
151
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Posted - 2013.04.07 02:39:00 -
[40] - Quote
CYRAX SERVIUS wrote:Past, AK 47. Kalasknikov variant. This assault rifle is over 60 years old, here's some facts. Gas activated bolt mechanism for faster reloading and reduced recoil. Chambered in 7.62 mm "a large damage round', capable of 600 rpm, effective range 300 meters set on full auto. 400 meters on semi auto, over 60 year old weapon. Present, M4A1 assault rifle, gas activated rotating bolt, I can tell you from personal military experience it has next to no recoil compared to the AK. Chambered in 5.56 mm, capable of , 'wait for it', 950 rpm, effective range 500 meters full auto, 600 meters semi auto. I have operated both many times and can tell you they are both deadly accurate at their suggested ranges. Considering this game takes place thousands of years in the future, I think ccp has it right, or the AR could use a buff, stop crying.
No. I will not 'stop crying', because it is foul gameplay imbalance.
I'm willing to bet those guns you cite actually kick when you shoot them. I also bet they can't hit a target the size of a man's head at those ranges continuously at full-auto. In fact, I bet at 100 meters or so, they'll start missing targets unless you're the size of a car or bigger. So NO CCP doesn't have it right. There is a superficial kick animation in ADS, that doesn't throw off your aim until you are halfway through your clip.
Hell, we got Sniper Rifles that can blow small homes down and shoot through walls in real-life! Imagine the cries for a nerf if such performance were ever given to the SRs in this game!
So no. The crying will continue until this thread is closed. And for many others it will continue until May 6 arrives. The Auto ARs, excluding the Breach, are not balanced. |
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Jathniel
G I A N T
151
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Posted - 2013.04.07 02:43:00 -
[41] - Quote
Vermaak Doe wrote:I've stacked enhanced damage mods on a gek and still didn't reach these instakill levels of damage. Besides against scouts (which are paper at every Ar tier) most suits take a decent amount of rounds before dying. However the recoil is too negligible starting at the half wat point of the mag.
Use Complex not Enhanced. You only need 2 to see how it performs. 2 Enhanced give you roughly 1 Complex. Do 2 Complex and see what happens.
I know you already see the lack of kick. Aeon Amadi recorded it and showed it how it's working just last night. |
Jathniel
G I A N T
151
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Posted - 2013.04.07 03:00:00 -
[42] - Quote
lol here's a question to help drive the point for the weapon's kick. This question is for anyone that seems to think referencing real-life matters.
Who invented the Burst Assault Rifle concept, and why?
Answer that, and you'll know why the Assault Rifle here in Dust is OP. You use real-life to reason right? |
Bojo The Mighty
Bojo's School of the Trades
820
|
Posted - 2013.04.07 03:01:00 -
[43] - Quote
Baal Roo wrote:the TAR and Burst variants are both just about right... which is why most AR users say "don't use TAR or Burst, they suck". Scale back the regular full auto variants to be more in line with the adjustments already made to the TAR and Burst and you've got a balanced weapon. They are my two favorite AR's as of right now. You will find me most of the time (if using an AR) to be using Burst and TAR because they are effective niche weapons that are interesting, balanced, and are like my fashion statement. I too flip the bird at standard AR because it dominates the roles that other weapons "fill" (how can they compete to the AR)? |
Ulysses Knapse
Nuevo Atlas Corporation
201
|
Posted - 2013.04.07 03:13:00 -
[44] - Quote
Jathniel wrote:lol here's a question to help drive the point for the weapon's kick. This question is for anyone that seems to think referencing real-life matters. Alright, I'll give it a shot.
Jathniel wrote:Who invented the Burst Assault Rifle concept, and why? To mitigate recoil.
Jathniel wrote:Answer that, and you'll know why the Assault Rifle here in Dust is OP. Because the Standard produces strangely less recoil than the Burst.
Jathniel wrote:You use real-life to reason right? All the time. |
WyrmHero1945
IMPSwarm Negative-Feedback
99
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Posted - 2013.04.07 03:24:00 -
[45] - Quote
It's not the AR it's the god damn Light Sharpshooter skill. Without the skill the AR is a CQC-mid range weapon. With sharpshooter the AR can have more range than a laser rifle, and the almost no recoil makes it OP. |
Vermaak Doe
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
684
|
Posted - 2013.04.07 03:25:00 -
[46] - Quote
I just stated that the lack of recoil is a problem, as for the stacking I'll try it out |
Ulysses Knapse
Nuevo Atlas Corporation
201
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Posted - 2013.04.07 03:57:00 -
[47] - Quote
Vermaak Doe wrote:I just stated that the lack of recoil is a problem, as for the stacking I'll try it out Stacking is working as intended, no problems there. Its only a display bug. |
Jathniel
G I A N T
153
|
Posted - 2013.04.07 04:10:00 -
[48] - Quote
WyrmHero1945 wrote:It's not the AR it's the god damn Sharpshooter skill. Without the skill the AR is a CQC-mid range weapon. With sharpshooter the AR can have more range than a laser rifle, and the almost no recoil makes it OP.
Fixed that for you. This is a powerful point, as well. +1
When we first moved to TQ, Ambush was Heaven.
Everyone's ranges were properly balanced (excluding SMGs... poor things need a range buff...) Sniper's sniped. Heavies stomped and sprayed. Assaults could only shoot and HIT what they could actually see (as opposed to now, where you can hit things that are so far away they are hidden by your iron sight... talk about excessive range).
Once Sharpshooter started maxing out, all kinds of buffoonery began. HMGs with excessive range. ARs with excessive range. That explains the range and lots of the kick, but...
Still doesn't exclude the AR from some damage mitigation. More reviews for the output with damage mods. There has to be a compromise of some sort that can be reached between it's basic dps, and it's damage-modded dps, because the damage-modded dps for it is just too high. |
Vermaak Doe
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
684
|
Posted - 2013.04.07 04:12:00 -
[49] - Quote
Ulysses Knapse wrote:Vermaak Doe wrote:I just stated that the lack of recoil is a problem, as for the stacking I'll try it out Stacking is working as intended, no problems there. Its only a display bug. I wasn't suggesting it didn't, I just don't believe it becomes op |
Vermaak Doe
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
684
|
Posted - 2013.04.07 04:15:00 -
[50] - Quote
If every weapon gained noticeable range from sharpshooter how is that a problem? It's a tiny bonus which is how I know you're bsing about the range (4 to five isn't a big difference) |
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Jathniel
G I A N T
153
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Posted - 2013.04.07 04:16:00 -
[51] - Quote
Vermaak Doe wrote:Ulysses Knapse wrote:Vermaak Doe wrote:I just stated that the lack of recoil is a problem, as for the stacking I'll try it out Stacking is working as intended, no problems there. Its only a display bug. I wasn't suggesting it didn't, I just don't believe it becomes op
You'll see. Took an assault rifle, type-2 assault suit, and 2 complex damage mods and ran a 21-2, just earlier. |
Jathniel
G I A N T
154
|
Posted - 2013.04.07 04:22:00 -
[52] - Quote
Vermaak Doe wrote:If every weapon gained noticeable range from sharpshooter how is that a problem? It's a tiny bonus which is how I know you're bsing about the range (4 to five isn't a big difference)
Some have claimed that Sharpshooter essentially stretches your firing cone, increasing your effective range.
This has obvious effects on the alleged kick, outside of the actual operation skill. Sure wish we had some Dev feedback on the topic, to really get the iron word on this for certainty. |
Patoman Radiant
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
60
|
Posted - 2013.04.07 05:09:00 -
[53] - Quote
damage mods work for everything. So what is not OP? |
Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising
1039
|
Posted - 2013.04.07 05:19:00 -
[54] - Quote
I thought the AR was just trolling....but he's serious lol.
The man is saying that the MLT Assault rifle is OP....really??? |
Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising
1039
|
Posted - 2013.04.07 05:20:00 -
[55] - Quote
Jathniel wrote:Vermaak Doe wrote:Ulysses Knapse wrote:Vermaak Doe wrote:I just stated that the lack of recoil is a problem, as for the stacking I'll try it out Stacking is working as intended, no problems there. Its only a display bug. I wasn't suggesting it didn't, I just don't believe it becomes op You'll see. Took an assault rifle, type-2 assault suit, and 2 complex damage mods and ran a 21-2, just earlier. There has to be a way to even out damage for the AR, so it keeps good basic performance, but not so high modded performance.
You can go 21-2 with any weapon in this game. What is your point? |
ladwar
Dead Six Initiative
89
|
Posted - 2013.04.07 05:26:00 -
[56] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Jathniel wrote:Vermaak Doe wrote:Ulysses Knapse wrote:Vermaak Doe wrote:I just stated that the lack of recoil is a problem, as for the stacking I'll try it out Stacking is working as intended, no problems there. Its only a display bug. I wasn't suggesting it didn't, I just don't believe it becomes op You'll see. Took an assault rifle, type-2 assault suit, and 2 complex damage mods and ran a 21-2, just earlier. There has to be a way to even out damage for the AR, so it keeps good basic performance, but not so high modded performance. You can go 21-2 with any weapon in this game. What is your point? love to see you go 21-2 with a nova knive, in fact; i dare you to show a vid of that. oh even better swarm launcher only. |
loumanchew
Ametat Security Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.07 06:12:00 -
[57] - Quote
Vermaak Doe wrote:If every weapon gained noticeable range from sharpshooter how is that a problem? It's a tiny bonus which is how I know you're bsing about the range (4 to five isn't a big difference)
40% is a tiny bonus? |
RINON114
B.S.A.A.
86
|
Posted - 2013.04.07 07:49:00 -
[58] - Quote
Wow, a thread asking for a nerf to AR's? Funnily enough I made a thread asking for a buff (kinda).
Personally I agree with the main point, the rapid fire AR is ridiculous, and so the simplest and best solution is to switch the RoF with that of the breach.
The breakdown SHOULD look like this.
Standard: - Med rate of fire. - Med range. - Med damage.
Breach: - High(est of AR's) rate of fire. - Short range. - High damage.
Tactical: - Low rate of fire. - Long range. - High damage.
Fixed? |
Vermaak Doe
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
685
|
Posted - 2013.04.07 08:09:00 -
[59] - Quote
loumanchew wrote:Vermaak Doe wrote:If every weapon gained noticeable range from sharpshooter how is that a problem? It's a tiny bonus which is how I know you're bsing about the range (4 to five isn't a big difference) 40% is a tiny bonus? Do you even read? |
Galrick M'kron
Sand Mercenary Corps Inc.
36
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Posted - 2013.04.07 09:07:00 -
[60] - Quote
I also personally think the standard variant AR is OP since it outcompetes all other weapons, even in their niches. I suggest a significant increase in recoil (I mean real recoil, not the cosmetic one we have now). It should go something like this: A quarter-way through the clip with continuous fire: 10% increase to crosshair height/width; halfway through the clip with continuous fire: 30% increase instead of 10%; 3/4 of the clip gone: 50% increase instead of 30% and by the time you're nearly done with the clip, a 70% increase instead of 50% to crosshair height/width. Your firing cone in ADS would still be smaller due to the fact that you're holding the gun steadier, but recoil should still affect it. This would help in keeping Standard ARs a mid-close range weapon. Also, I'm not sure if the breach needs a buff, but if so, the breach should get a damage buff enough to make its DPS significantly higher than a standard AR's. |
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